Upcoming Barsi Celebration!

[Kharkoo4Life]

Everywhere we look today we see countless posters, advertisments in papers or announcments on radio, tv even gurdwaras for the barsi celebration of so and so sant or baba. Are such celebrations in agreement with gurmat? We are always so quick to say that my GUru wants me to do this (i.e. keep punj kakaar, do nitnem every day) and doesnt want me to do that (alcohol, drugs, cutting hair etc.) but have we ever bothered to ask ourselves what is the gurus opnion on a Sikh celebrating such events? If i asked my GUru is it appropriate or inappropriate for a Sikh to celebrate some persons barsi (regardless how spiritual he was) what do u think the Guru would say?

My aim is not to criticize any particular individual (sant or baba) for i am not in any position to comment about their lives. God himself is all-knowing and only he can ultimately judge someone. However, my intention is for all of us to spend more time understanding gurbani and its teachings and then use that knowledge to see if the things we do in our lives agree with gurbani or go against it. A sikh is a student learning the subject of Sikhi and his/her teacher is the Guru. How can we expect to every properly learn Sikhi if we do not even follow the instructions of our guru?

When we see celebrations of barsi of 'spritually enlightned' people we often read the title of sant, maha purash or brahm gyani by their name. However how many of us know what brahm gyani even means. Gyani is one who has knowledge, and brahm means god. Thus brahmgyani means one who has attained complete understanding, gyaan of God. If one has truly become one with brahm, then that means his own identity has been extinguished and he would no longer have the need to use his own name, or distinguish himself as so n so Brahm Gyani.

What do we see pervading in our society today? That so n so belonging to that jatha, or running that dera or head of that taksal is a Brahm Gyani. This title is written by the person’s name. That Brahm Gyani such n such Singh is in charged of that dera and he is doing such n such service for the community. He has made this many schools, this many colleges, this many hospitals. If Brahm Gyani is used to refer to an actual person and Gurbani teaches us that the Brahm Gyani lives forever and never dies

bRhm igAwnI sd jIvY nhI mrqw ]

The God-conscious being lives forever, and does not die.

Then why do we celebrate barsis, death anniversary? To this date no one has ever celebrated God’s barsi, yet we celebrate barsis of sadhus, sants, babas, gurus all the time. We are taught that a Brahm Gyani is One with God, that they both have the same qualities. If we accept that God never dies, then a Brahm Gyani can never die, and there is no reason to be celebrating a barsi because a barsi is only for someone that is deceased. But if we say that a Brahm Gyani is a person, and people always eventually die and so we can celebrate a barsi then it means either that God can die as well or that the Brahm Gyani is not one with God, i.e. not a true Brahm Gyani.

As stated numerous times before, Brahm Gyani is not a person. It is a description of the final spiritual state where ones soul unites with the Supreme Soul of God. And at that stage the person no longer has any separate identity for he has completely merged as one with God. Any person that has his/her own identity can never be immortal. The day will always come where that individual shall die. And even self-proclaimed Brahm Gyanis and their followers accept this fact or else why would they celebrate barsis. That person could never be a true Brahm Gyani because the Guru has described a true Brahm Gyani as follows:

bRhm igAwnI Awip inrMkwru ]

The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord.

And has anyone ever celebrated God’s barsi, or death anniversary? If we say that God has a birth date, or a death date then it can be accepted that God can have a barsi as well. But not any follower of any religion, be it Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism has ever celebrated a death anniversary of God.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib contains nothing but pure truth. And not everyone is comfortable hearing or accepting the truth. That is why we have the commonly used term of “bitter truth”. It tastes bitter to most people because it makes them uneasy, makes them question their own beliefs and admit to their own falsehoods and lies. But the Guru never hesitated from telling the full truth because of anyone or anything. That is why in the opening pages of Guru Granth Sahib they stated that:

QwipAw n jwie kIqw n hoie ]

He cannot be established, He cannot be created.

He is not made by somebody, or created by somebody. He is not someone who can be ratified or sanctioned by someone to that state of Brahm Gyani. The uvusthaa of Brahm Gyani is not a job posting where someone can be nominated or appointed to. If someone disproves that nomination, then they can choose a different person and designate him as the real Brahm Gyani, and leader of that dera. Every day we see someone known as a Brahm Gyani die, arguments break out over who is the genuine successor. Often multiple successors arise, each saying that I am the one whom he (the previous baba) nominated to succeed him, with the end result, in many cases, each creates their own division and followings. In some cases, arguments get so heated that violence erupts and gains media attention. Would a real Brahm Gyani, someone who never utters a harsh word to anyone, be involved in fighting over such menial matters? We have reduced the uvusthaa of Brahm Gyani to a mere priest like position to which someone can be appointed to. But the Guru is repeatedly telling us:

QwipAw n jwie kIqw n hoie ]

He cannot be established, He cannot be created.

Awpy Awip inrMjnu soie ]

He Himself is Immaculate and Pure.

He is self-created; never takes birth nor ever dies. This is why in the very opening line of Guru Granth Sahib when the Guru is telling us God’s name, and describing some of His fundamental qualities he said the following:

AjUnI sYBM

Beyond Birth, Self-Existent

Further on in Gurbani, this important point was made again:

ipqw kw jnmu ik jwnY pUqu ]

What does the son know of his father’s birth?

sgl proeI ApunY sUiq ]

All are strung upon His string.

The Guru teaches us that we can never celebrate the birthday of God, because who could ever verify His birth date? Which historian or writer could ever attempt to find out this date because none of them were even born then? Before the first historians, there was no Granth, no language, and no script. It would be an impossible feat. We have been explicitly told that He never takes birth by Gurbani. Even in the case of the Gurus, the birth dates are for their physical bodies, the very bodies we do not consider or accept as our Gurus. To prevent this false belief from ever arising in any Sikh they included the following message, amongst many, in Gurbani:

joiq Ehw jugiq swie sih kwieAw Pyir pltIAY ]

They shared the One Light and the same way; the King just changed His body.

All these birth dates, death anniversaries; these are all associated with the body. A Sikh never follows or worships any body. Even the pictures, paintings or statues we see, they are all associated with bodies, not the soul. If someone were to ask you to take a picture or make a painting of the inner soul, or spiritual state of someone, what would you do? No matter how powerful the camera lens, or how sharp and fine the paintbrush, an image of the soul can never be created. Because it is not visible. Only the body is. A Sikh never worships the body and for that reason never worships or pays respect or devotion to any photo or statue either. The body can never stay alive forever.

dyh Ain~q n in~q rhY jsu nwv cVY Bv swgr qwrY ]

Someone who lives in the physical world can never be called one with God. God is immortal and nothing in the physical world is immortal. So we should accept that:

bRhm igAwnI sd jIvY nhI mrqw ]

The God-conscious being lives forever, and does not die.

Nor can his birth date be celebrated and nor his barsi. If they do, then either the Guru is wrong or they are not a true Brahm Gyani. Unfortunately, there are many people out there who are falsely using this title and taking advantage of its associated honor and prestige in the eyes of the common folk. They mislead the masses with their own personal teachings mixed in with Gurbani and confuse them to such a state that they start following the person as if he himself is the Brahm Gyani, rather than inner gunn, virtues.

So rather than erroneuosly engaging in celebrations which are anti-gurmat, and spending time on celebrations associated with the physical body of a person, let us instead celebrate that persons inner gunn, by developing those virtues in our own life.

[Gupt daasan daas]

y do u celebrate guru jes gurpurab?

obviuosly to celebrate the fact tha vaheguru that day took the form of a guru in real life that someone can see and toch and helped this world and spread a light into kaljug

we celebrate the births of sants for the same reason, to celebrate the coming of great sants tha come to save the worold( as per gurbanee), and we remeber there passing away

a bahm giani neevr dies

but they choose to leave there wordly bodies, just as our gurus never died

they jus left there wordly bodies

they are not dead, very much alive

a brahm giani is a person

if u choose to use thuks from sukhmanee shaib, also use the thuk that says he alone is a brahm giani who god makes so

wow thas wat GURBANEE SAYS

by remebrin the barsee of any gurmukh, we are remebring there jeevan

there selfless sacrafice

there extreme seva

there bhagthee

w/e they did that was noticed by the world

it is not anti gurmath at all

oone thin where people get extremle confused when reading english trnalstion is thinking that when it says a brahm giani never dies, this doesnt mean that the brahm giani can always be physically seen

it just means that brahm gianis athma is eternal npw, because it has joined into akaal

and because akaal is enternal, the brahm ginai being merged and one with god also becomes eternal now

they just CHOOSE to leave there body

this example is to all gurmukhs

a tru gurmukh will never die, gurbanee says thsi many times

but then how u explain gurmukhs dying?

it desont talk about physical sareer

it is talking bout our athma, when a normal person dies THAT person will die, they will go ontpo another joon, that particualt life form is foreever and ever dead

but a brahm giani, having achived liberation is alive forver anad evr

BECAUSE they have become one with akaal who lives forever and ever

bhula chuka maf

[Kharkoo4Life]

y do u celebrate guru jes gurpurab?

obviuosly to celebrate the fact tha vaheguru that day took the form of a guru in real life that someone can see and toch and helped this world and spread a light into kaljug

Firstly, just because something is widely practiced within the Sikh community does not make it Gurmat. Gurmat is only that which is supported and permitted by the principles and teachings given to us in gurbani. Point here in contention u raise is celebration of gurpurab.

As u urself are probably very familiar with the guru was never a name given to the dhai or body, it was given to the gyaan which lay within. This gyaan was passed on, in the form of shabad-bani to each succesive guru. THroughuot this time this gyaan (shabad-guru) was shared with the sangat at large and thru attainmnet of this gyaan themselves, the sikhs reached the same spiritual status as the gurus themselves. That is why the guru said he saw no difference between the khalsa and the guru. Now did he mean phsyical difference? Because obviously every sikh man was of different height, weight, skin tone, beard length so cudnt of looked like the guru in appearence. And what bout the women? They too belonged to the khalsa as equal members so if they also represented the guru obviously it cudnt of been in the physical form. What the guru was trying to tell us was that the inner aatma, the inner gunn or virtues of the khalsa and the guru became identical. These gunn were obtained thru gyaan thru the form of bani (reading, reflecting and understanding of it) and thus the spiritual avustha of the student (sikh) came to be the same as that of the teacher (guru). This is how lenhna became guru angad and jetha became guru ram das.

Now to say that waheguru took the form of a guru is completely wrong!..This wud imply that god has a form, but we are told repeatedly that he is Akaal Moorat, free of form

rUpu n ryK n rMgu ikCu iqRhu gux qy pRB iBMn ]

He has no form, no shape, no color; God is beyond the three qualities.

On the one hand the gurus say that god cannot take human form. That is why they rejected the hindu philosophy that god took form of shiv, braham, krishn, ram etc. Gurbani teaches us that no avtaars (human forms of god) can ever exist. So why wud the gurus at the same time preach a hypocritcal message that god ONLy took form THRU THEM, so that ppl cud see and touch him? What need does god have for that? And what need does the guru have to do such self-praise of himself?

they jus left there wordly bodies

they are not dead, very much alive

a brahm giani is a person

This contains two contradictory statements. IF a barhm gyan is a person then they must die as all people expeireince death. If they never die then u must concede tht a brahm gyani is not a person. I think u are gettin confused here. U are right that it is theinner aatma which guru refers to. A body cannot progress thru different uvustha or spiritual stages. It is merely physical matter which decays with time. It is the inner soul, or aatma, the gunn enveloped within that aatma which are capable of climbing the ladder of spirituality. WHen they reach the final supreme state, that aatma is known as a brahm gyaani.

if u choose to use thuks from sukhmanee shaib, also use the thuk that says he alone is a brahm giani who god makes so

wow thas wat GURBANEE SAYS

i dont see how this supports any of ur argument. The fact that God makes a brahm gyani is not in contention for God makes EVERYTHING. The bodies as well as the souls that reside in that person are made by Him.

ANd if u want tuks from sukhmani sahib how bout u read the following:

bRhm igAwnI srb kw Twkuru ]The God-conscious being is the Lord and Master of all.

bRhm igAwnI kI imiq kaunu bKwnY ]

Who can describe the limits of the God-conscious being?

EVERY PERSON has limits, for a person exists in physical world thru the body. ONly the soul has no limits. IF u concede that a person is a brahm gyani then are u also willing to agree with gurbani tht he is the lord and master of all? Are u willing to say that a person cud have this title?

nwnk bRhm igAwnI Awip prmysur ]6]

O Nanak, the God-Conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God.

NO PHYSICAL BODY can ever be assigned this title. EVER!! What the guru is telling us is not that the person became God, but rather that the person came to understand god, and thru the gyaan obtained thru bani, he came to develop those same gunn as God (ie. no fear, no hate, Only love for all etc) within himself such that his spiritual uvustha reached the supreme state where he became completley one with god. Again this spiritual uvustha has no link to body it is related only to the soul.

Talkin of gurpurab celebrtions, do u have any proof that even a SINGLE GURU ever celebrated his own birthday or that of any previous birthday? They didnt. Cuz if they did they wud be contradiciting the very philosophy of Sikhi that Nanak started. The guru remained alive and was never dependent on any sareer. IT was alwasy the shabad that was the guru. IF they had a link to the body then why did each of the succedding gurus not use their own name in bani, since nanak the body had died? Cuz their guru was never nanak the body. It was the shabad of nanak. If the gurus never celebrated their birthday who are we to override them and say that we should celebrate it?

If u wish to celebrate some person because of his great qualities, gunn, lifestyle, jeevan then i fully support that and encourge that. But what does celebrating those qualites of that person have to do with the physical body of that person? The qualities were spiritual not physical. To say this the barsi of someone is a direct acknowledgment that the person died. Barsi means death anniversary, and if u admit that the brahm gyani never died for his spirit lives on then no need to celebrate barsi. FOcus instead on that spirit by developing the same type of qualites in ur own life. THis is somethin u shud be doing ALL YEAR LONG, not jus pick one day of the year to remember n hold special samagam. This is disrpectful both to the person who its being held for (for uve made events associated with his physical body more important than his aatma) as well as being ignorant of the phiolosophy of Gurmat

[Gupt daasan daas]

see veer je

we must understand the concept

of bharpoor

sargun

and nirgun

bharpoor is al prevading

yes that is vahguru

this is a desctription of his NIRGUN SAROOP

the thuk form jaap sahib describes vaheguru jes nirgun saroop

aik hain anaaik hain

vaheguru is one but many at the same time

akaal moorath does not mean free of form

akaal moorath means that god i the image of the undying, the timeless

as i said before guru nanakd ev je is timeless

there BODY WAS JUST A VESSEL

same for brahm gianis

if u dont think vaheguru didnt come into this earth as guru

then u better read bhataa de banee and bhachitter natak

vaheguru can take any form he wants

aik hain anaik hain

but his nirgun sarrop, will always be there

timeless

but this does not limit vaheguru

to say that vaheguru cannot take a form

is saying vaheguru cannot do something

which is not tru

guru je did not say that god did not take human form to help the world

i dunt kno where people come up wit these ideas

gur nanak dev GOVIND ROOP

guru nanak dev je himself was god himself

all our gurus were god

who came into this world as a guru to save it

guru je has said that krishna, brahma, etc. were not god

they were not complete beings either, for example they went brahm ginais

but guru je has never rejected the idea tha vaheguru cannot take forms

and i think i myself have not been clear enoug, ma bad:)

the athma, i agree wit u, when reaching a avastha,, beocme brahm giani

the body is nothuin

its the athamm we worry about

so when we say oo tha persons a brahm giani, we mean that there avastha has acheinved that level of spituality where there joth blends into akaal

a person, whos soul, merges with akaal, beomces a brahm giani

that brahm giani is the master of all now, because he and vaheguru have become one

if u want proof of sikhs celebrating gurpurabs

Bwie Bgq gurpurb kr nwm dwn ieSnwn idRVwXw]

bhaae bhagath gurapurab kar naam dhaan eishanaan dhrirraayaa||

Now being full of loving devotion they celebrate the gurprubs (anniversaries of the Gurus) and their acts of rememberance of God, charity and holy ablutions, inspire others also.

bhai gurdas jes vaars

dsmI Awid gurU idn jyqy purb smwn khy hYN qyqy ] iqn myN kCu prswd bnwvY kr kVwh ^wlsy KuAwvY ]

dhasamee aadh guroo dhin jaethae purab samaan kehae hai(n) thaethae || thin mae(n) kashh parasaadh banaavai kar karraah khhaalasae khuaavai ||

When a recognised Gurpurab day comes One should make the sacred Parshaad and give it to fellow Sikhs.

bhai desa singh je rehitnama

when we celebrate the birth of a sant, or our guru je

we are celebrating the coming of that athma into this world

and how the world has greatly bennifted from there coming

or there apperance into this world in case of gur je

guur je is ajoonee

they never go into the cyccle of chouaase lakh

vaheguru just came into a form that poeole cud see, ask wuestions, and a roop where vaheguru cud give banee to people etc.

we remeber the passing of sants persona in this world

we cant see them, we cant talk to them, etc. unless we some next gurmukhs

its all about remberance

because we remebert hat souls seva to this world

we remebr w/e they did tha was good

forr example, if they had great courage, or if they did some extreme seva etc.

bhula chuka maf

[Kharkoo4Life]

if u dont think vaheguru didnt come into this earth as guru

then u better read bhataa de banee and bhachitter natak

Firstly the ONLY GURBANI for a sikh to follow is GURU GRANTH SAHIB! All other compositions can never be classified on same level as gurbani, regardless of whomever it may or may not be written by. However it can be read and shared with others ONLY IF IT AGREES WITH THE GURBANI of Guru Granth Sahib. So any bani which does not agree with guru granth sahib (including majority of dasam granth) can never be taken as support or evidence for any situation in a sikh's life.

guru nanak dev je himself was god himself

all our gurus were god

who came into this world as a guru to save it

This is a HUGE MISTAKE to think like this. No guru considerd themselves God. WHen it is written in bani that they became God, it is said metaphorically, it doesnt imply that they actually now were God. To say God came into this world as guru to save it is going along christian thinking that Jesus was sole incarnatin (son) of God that was sent to save humanity. THis logic fails. WHy do u make God so weak and fragile like a human that he has to take human birth to save humanity? He is beyond such petty games. The Gurus were not God but rather people like you and I who attained a perfect spiritual clarity of what god was! After realizing this, their whole mission was to share this message with other people so that they too cud attian this same spiritual clarity, gyaan, and realize God.

It is absurd to think God wud spend 200 years in human form, struggling, toiling, engaging in everday physical human activities to desperately save humanity. What need does he have to save humanity? He is far above mere physical existence of this world so do not bring him down to such a simple level.

guru je has said that krishna, brahma, etc. were not god

they were not complete beings either, for example they went brahm ginais

but guru je has never rejected the idea tha vaheguru cannot take forms

So were the gurus either hypocritical that they said the hindus cud never have a god in human form, but the sikhs cud? Or were they ful of ego that they considered only they themselves were Gods form?

In fact guru ji HAS REPEATEDLY AND DIRECTLY rejected the false idea u have that God takes human form.

I said earlier maybe u forgot to read it:

rUpu n ryK n rMgu ikCu iqRhu gux qy pRB iBMn ]

He has no form, no shape, no color; God is beyond the three qualities.

qU sdw slwmiq inrMkwr ]16]You, Eternal and Formless One!

God is not a physical being, and nor does he take physical form. He exists in a state which can only be expereinced, which in simple terms we call such khand.

sc KMif vsY inrMkwru ]

In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.

When we talk of nirgun and surgan roop it means he exists both in what we see and dont see. In matter and non-matter. He is all prevading. So why would God confine himself to a single human body at any one time? If he wantd to take physical form to save humanity, why not jus take 1 million human forms at once? WUdnt this make it a lot quicker and easier? For as u say he can take human form? Wether he can or cant is not the question, for the capacities of God are limitless. However just because he can do somethin doesnt mean he does it. God can destroy the entire universe in a snap, he can be angry and vengeful if he chose to, but we are told by the guru that he doesnt do any of this. He chooses not to. He also chooses not to take phys human form as we are told.

when we celebrate the birth of a sant, or our guru je

we are celebrating the coming of that athma into this world

To say something takes birth means it will die as well. That is why god is said to be without Ajoonee and Saibhung. He is beyond birth and death. Likewise the guru is also beyond birth and death. If u say the guru has a birthday then explain what guru nanak meant when he said:

jo AwieAw so clsI Amru su guru krqwru ]

Whoever comes must also go. Only the Guru and the Creator are Eternal.

If the Guru is eternal, then he cudnt have had a birthday, for a birthday means at one point he did not exist. Yet we are told that both guru and god existed since beginning.

And if u wanna celebrate the aathma then why are u celebrating a day linked to the body? How can u say when the aatma of guru came to earth, if it didnt exist before amongst us, for u do admit that it still exists amongst us now (guru granth sahib). So if it can exist now without physical form/vehicle to it cdunt it have existed before in non physical form as well?

If u wanna celebrat the aathma that is awesome, i encourage u to, but then celebrate it according to qualities of the aathma. I.e. devolop those same gunn that the aathma had in ur own life. DOnt link the aathma to a temporary human body and start celebratin when the body was made or when the body disappeared. What value is that? It is pointless and waste of time. The day a body was created has no value to god. IF we start attaching special importance to any day, be it gurus 'birthday', 'joti jot' day, or some sant-baba's barsi then we will be following the path of the brahmins and making that day more important than others.

swhw gxih n krih bIcwru ]

You calculate the auspicious days, but you do not understand

swhy aUpir eykMkwru ]

that the One Creator Lord is above these auspicious days.

If u wanna celebrate the aathma of Guru nanak or of any perosn of good qualities for that matter then celebrate it EVERYDAY of ur life. Dont just do it once a year. ANd how do u celebrate it everyday? By devleoping the same qualities as that aathma, by reading and understanding gurbani.

iQqI vwr siB sbid suhwey ]

All the lunar days, and the days of the week are beautiful, when one contemplates the Shabad.

siqguru syvy qw Plu pwey ]

If one serves the True Guru, he obtains the fruits of his rewards.

Then u will realize that everday u read gurbani, study it and follow it will become like celebration of that persons/gurus aathma. No need will remain to hold special one day celebrations of kirtan and forget about the shabad rest of month.

[Gupt daasan daas]

ok veer je

this is where i disagree wit u

first off

if u do not blive in dasam granth and dont belive in its banee, stop doin nitnem, which wud make our very amrit sanchaars which al jathai perform since guru jes times a false shaam and has been done wrong since guru es times and suddenly we know right more than 300 years later haha sure

if u dont belive in celebrating gurpurabs, then take a look at my post with PROOF from rehit and bhai sahib vaars that a gurSIKH, a tru one, will always celebrate his gurus avtaar purab out of love

its remebring the day this is the day they appeared

banee evidence has been given

i dunt think further topic discusioon is required

but i am bhoolanhar

so if i made a mistake and said somethins tupid, ma bad man

forgive me

im jus tryin to learn

im sure u kno way more than me

but frmo wat ive read in gurbanee

guru je is akaals roop

as banee thuks above show

and a sikh shud celebrate the gurpurab of his guru

bhula chuka maf

guru je was vahegurus roop

guru nanak dev GOVIND ROOP

Jot Roop HAR AAP Guru Nanak Kahayio

gaavahi kapilaad aad jogaysur aprampar avtaar varo

gur naanak naanak har soe

these are AFEW OF THE THUKS that prve bbeyond a doubt, in accordance with bachitter natak, that guru je was avtaar of akaal

i suggest u take a look at bachitter natak, and go read gurbanee on this matter:)

guru nanakd ev je came y?

because the worlds sufferin in kaljug was at such a point it called to vaheguru for someone to come and save it, and who came?

vaheguru wielded the power himseelf this time, and came in the form of guru nanak dev je

i agree that vaheguru is both sargun and nirgun

im not sure u understand tha

satgun is with attriubutes

nirgin is without

vahegurus tru form is nirgun

but to save this world he took a sargun form

tha sargun form of nirankar was dhan dhan guru nanak dev je

u can belive wa u want

but it is proven beyond a DOUBT in gurbanee tha guru nanak dev j was akaals roop itself

i agree on one point

the fact that guru je took "birth" is not entierly tru

he just took a form

aik HAIN ANAAIK HAIN

god is not merley one form as we belive it be

god is one and many at the same time

[Gupt daasan daas]

sorry ma post was cut off it was to long or somethin i guess:S crap man i lost a lot of stuff lol

o well guru jes hukam i gues haha

the thing we can conculide is clear

guru je was vahegurus roop as per gurbanee

guru jes gurpurab shud without a doubt be celebrated as per bhai sahibs vaars and rehitnamai

i am bhulanhaar veer je

i dunt kno muuch

ma bad if i have said anthin wrong

but guru je has shown us tha answers

and gurbanee ssays guru je was vahegurus roop WITHOUT A DOBUT

and it without a doubt says celebrate gurpurabs

bhula chuka maf

[Kharkoo4Life]

Fateh,

Thanx for ur input bro. I do not claim to know all, in fact i admit i am just a beginner on this path of Sikhi. As urself i am still learning more and more everyday. Whatever i learn i always try and go back to the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib and try to find support either for or against what ive jus learned.

You will agree that our Guru is Guru Granth Sahib alone and no one else right?

Now tell me this, in which do u place greater trust and value, Guru Granth Sahib or other outside compositions? Regardless of whom they written by, how old they are, or how great they are, NOTHING CAN COMPARE to our Guru. Only that which is written to us in Guru Granth Sahib is to be considered as pure gurbani. If there was ever the need to include anything else and give it the same importance every guru cud of done that. Each had the opportunity to add man outside compositions by other people, bhagats if they chose to. But they didnt. THey only included what was needed and made the Granth complete on its own.

Now the contention wether dasam granth is or isnt written by guru gobind singh isnt something that will be solved overnight. More importantly it is not of grave importance to us wether it is or not, for the only composition we follow and accept as our Guru is that which is included in Guru Granth Sahib. Do u think it is lacking something, that it is incomplete? Why do u feel the need to use outside compositoins (regardless of whom they written by) to support someting in Sikhi? Guru Gobind Singh was not so shortsighted or forgetfull that he forgot to include his own bani in guru granth sahib ji, for he was able to recite the entier guru granth sahib from memory, as well as including additional compositions of his father guru tegh bahadur ji added to it. So why did he not put his own in their? We will never know the true answer, but this much is obvious, that GUru Ji realized that there was no need to add more, that the Guru Granth Sahib was perfect and complete in that form.

As for rehitnamas, jus cuz something is written in them doesnt mean they stand on equal ground with gurbani. THese are all interpretations by men and prone to distortiion and mistakes. So i will not take their words over that of Guru Granth Sahib whrever there is confusion.

Also u say that Guru was roop of waheguru without a doubt, wud u please show me the line or shabad from GURu Granth Sahib Ji where this is stated? I have provided u ample evidence from gurbani to the contrary so if u cud do the same it wud be much appreciated.

And no need for apologiez. I know u mean well, and that ur intentions are pure and from the heart. I do not doubt ur vishvaash and faith in Guru Ji. However, we cannot jus live our life on vishvaash alone. We must excercise our own ability to think, question and analyze things in our life. If we dont, then we will be no different than the millions of hindus who for centuries (and still do) followed mindless rituals and practices all on the basis of blind faith. So bro, i do not wish to force u to change ur ways, for the choice of our actions and beliefs is our own and no one shud forcibly change them. All i want u to do, is take the time, and not be so scared to ask yourself if things u been taught in past may be wrong. To admit mistakes or that we have incorrect knowledge is not a bad thing, and nor shud anyone be reluctant or worried about it. Its hard to admit that,when one has been doing things for so long and all of a sudden face the possiblity that it was inappropriate.

But u can take inspiration in that Bhai Lehna himself used to worship idols blindly and it was until that he was forced to think for himself and question these practices by Guru Nanak that he came to realize he was wrong and began to follow the message of Nanak instead.

Rab Rakha

[Gupt daasan daas]

kharkoo 4 life veer je

i aprreacite ure opinions

at the end of the day we all brothers striving for the same goal right?

sometimes people have diff opinions on some things

were all learners

i agre that guru granth sahib je is the supreme king

however i also belive dasam gramth is banee as well, and shud be resepcted, i mean we drink amrit that i made amrit because of banee from there as well as banee from guru je

veer je if u read my above post

u will see around 6 thuks that show guru nanak dev je was without a doubt akaals roop

these thuks r from guru granth sahib

there r many more

but these shud be enough i think

as for gurpurabs

bhai gurdas jes vaars say we shd celebrate them as well

guru arjun said himself bhai sahibs vaars are the kunjis to guru granth sahib je, the keys to guru je

if u wish to understan guur je , we shud read bhai sahibs vaars

they are a valid peice of refrence to use

so is in my belive bhai desa singhs reightnama which also says to ceelebrate gurpurabs

i may be wrong veer je

but gurbanee is never wrong:)

perhaos only our understaning of it sometimes

as in ma above post

thusk from GURU GRANTH SAHIB JE show that guur je was without a doubt vahegurus roop,and these are onyl a few

another source not within guru sahib is dasam granth

another source is bhai sahibs vaars

at the end of the day, our prem will matter

jin prem keeo thin he prabh paaeoo

our prema bhagthee will show us allt he answers:)

bhula chuka maf

[Taksali Singh]

Gupt daasan daas Jee...

There is no point in raising an arguement with Kharkoo 4 Life... i've seen that on many occasion he chooses to nit-pick on insignificant topics...

Kharkoo 4 Life Jee...please dont take offence, but just look back on your posts and you shall see its true!

Apologies...