Upcoming Barsi Celebration!

[Bundha]

I don't have time to read all the post(s) but one thing I will say:

<<<< If i asked my GUru is it appropriate or inappropriate for a Sikh to celebrate some persons barsi (regardless how spiritual he was) what do u think the Guru would say? >>>>

Guru Sahib Ji would be so pleased that we are remembering the lives of such Guru-dhay-piyaray.

For Sant Mahapursh are Gurus-own and Guru Sahib Ji bestows much blessing upon them for they are drenched in Naam.

Hence, is we celebrate such pujji-roohs then Guru Sahib Ji will be very happy.

[Kharkoo4Life]

Gupt daasan daas Jee...

There is no point in raising an arguement with Kharkoo 4 Life... i've seen that on many occasion he chooses to nit-pick on insignificant topics...

Kharkoo 4 Life Jee...please dont take offence, but just look back on your posts and you shall see its true!

Apologies...

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Fateh,

Bro i do not take offense to what u say but i am disappointed in you that as a Sikh of the Guru you choose to distort views shared by others and quickly label them as someone engrossed in arguing just for fun.

Firstly, i am not and never have engaged in a direct heated argument aimed at any one person. Each time i raise a point, or counter that raised by another, i do so when i see that the tenents of Gurmat are being misinterpreted or distorted. You are entitled to view my discussions as being nit-picking but to me, any issue which directly relates to or involves the Guru i do not view as insignificant. Furthermore, i make it a habit that whenver i make a post, regardless of the topic, i try to include support and reference from gurbani, not only to show that the views are suported by gurbani but also to show that the topic is not without value. FOr if it was an insignificant topic as u say, then why did the gurus include mention of such "insignificant" topics guru granth sahib?

Granted guru granth sahib does not contain a list of dos and dont, for the world is every changing and so are the ways of the people. HOwever, what gurbani does provide is a reference guide for every Sikh to scrutinize and judge the validity of their actions based on the teachings of the Guru. And that is exactly what i have been doing. IF you can prove that i am jus rantin off useless person opnions, void of any importance or relation to gurbani then please do. Ohterwise do not engage in making such inflammatory accustions with no substence to them.

And in terms of no point discussing things wiht certain people, perhaps you would like go back and look at your own posts, particularly the ones you discussed under the heading of Jooth.

For those that didnt read it, i provide it for you all to judge for urself: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=15117&st=12

From the get go in that thread, i opnely stated my thanx to everyone, including YOU, for sharing your views for it was thru OPEN RESPECTFUL VICHAAR that we can all learn from each other. I never said only i am right, nor did i say that everyone else is wrong. In fact, it was you who chose to suddenl stop replying to my posts. U accused me of being insensitive in that post, which i addressed in a reply to u. However, even after i cleared that up, u chose to stay quiet and simply ignore my questions. Did u run out of answers to share with the sangat that u felt it more appropriate to just stay quiet and pretend you never saw my posts? Now u tell me, which of us actually cares of talking and disccussing matters openly for actual benefit of all so that we can learn something and who is more focused on only stating their preconceived views and if someone doesnt agree with them to just shut them out? Do u call this type of behaviour an open repsectful discussion?

I do not have no pesonal vendetta against u, nor am i tryin to attack you. But if someone feels the need to accuse me of something whcih is false, i will defend myself and try and clear things up. SO with all due respect, please try and understand a situation before jumping out with emotinally charged comments.

Sincerely.

[humble_kaur]

Fateh,

I respect your view Gupt Daasan Das Veer Ji, but I don’t agree with a lot of it. Remember the Guru’s were humble beings. We chose to celebrate these different occasions. I don’t recall in Gurbani where the Guru Ji said, come and celebrate my being, it was always the celebration of God. It has always been the celebration of the Shabad Guru. It is always the celebration of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The teachings of God, what the Guru’s inscribed in our beloved Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, only incorporated the values, the beliefs, a guide for a Sikhi Jeevan. The Guru never made mention of birthdays or death anniversaries. The Guru's emphasized the philosophy of "Shabad Guru".

Today we celebrate Gurpurab, we celebrate Joti Jot, and we celebrate death anniversaries. Our calendars tell us that there is a birthday of our Guru, a death anniversary of our Guru. We have falsely believed that the Guru Ji is the deh of the Guru. If you consider Guru Nanak Dev Ji to be a human form, then of course this human form has a birth date and also a deceased date. But the Guru we believe in has no form or roop. The Guru/Jot was never born and never dies. So how can it have a birthday or a death anniversary? Nanak is the name of the body, and Guru is the name of the Shabad, gyan. When this gyan, jot was attained by Nanak, he became Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Our Guru is the Shabad, the gyan. The Guru is ever present. He never changes. He never dies. He is never born. He never comes. He never leaves. As the Truth is eternal, the Guru, Satguru is "Eternal". Hence, He is beyond birth and death. Thus, He cannot be a physical body, for they are perishable.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji says his Guru is the Shabad that resides deep within the self, and, in turn, Naam is the Essence of the Shabad. Therefore, Satguru, Shabad and Naam are essentially one and the same.

AMqir sbdu inDwnu hY imil Awpu gvweIAY ]7]

Deep within the self is the treasure of the Shabad; it is obtained only by eradicating selfishness and conceit.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji didn’t consider any embodied being, scripture or any idle as his Guru, yet the world Guru or Satguru appears over and over again in the Shabads. He is not addressing himself as the Guru/Satguru in the Shabad; instead, he is addressing Akaal Purakh as Satguru. Guru Nanak Dev Ji calls himself a “servant”, “slave” etc.

guru nwrwiexu dXu guru guru scw isrjxhwru ]

The Guru is the All-pervading Lord, the Guru is the Merciful Master; the Guru is the True Creator Lord.

guir quTY sB ikCu pwieAw jn nwnk sd bilhwr ]4]2]170]

When the Guru was totally satisfied, I obtained everything. Servant Nanak is forever a sacrifice to Him.

I know a lot of people these days that only think of our Guru on these dates. How can we limit their remembrance to a day? We should remember our Guru, Satguru continuously. How? By living our lives by following the virtues, and obtaining the qualities, gunn, gyaan that they all lived by. We should celebrate by spreading God’s Divine Words, and living them. When we go to the Gurdwara, we should know and remember why we are going.

ibnvMiq nwnk inq krhu rlIAw hir imly sRIDr kMq jIau ]7]

Prays Nanak, I celebrate continuously; I have met my Husband Lord, the Lord of excellence. ||7||

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[drawrof]

Gurmat it may not be, as per tradition....one then has to assess what the agenda/mindset is of the people and why it was employed.

One thing about sants/baba's etc were that they were 'living witnesses' to gurbani. Understand what I mean here. We all, at some point, question our actions and why we choose to follow sikhi. Some people find no need for religion/others look for examples. Sants are these examples. Many in this life, contrary to gurmat or not, are actually inspired by another person. They are bound to the attachment they have developed (I personally feel that attachment to a sant/brahmgyani/sadhu will inevitably lead you to their shortcoming, even if it is the slightest). My feelings aside.....

it is a person's/communities tribute to that which brought them peace, I don't see why a commemoration of a sant/baba/gurmukh/teacher etc is wrong. Again, I won't say that it should be the norm.

[humble_kaur]

Fateh,

I respect your point Drawrof Veer Ji. I was also one, of many, that celebrated these occasions. But that was when I also believed that the Guru pictures that we have, are in fact of the Guru’s themselves. When Guru Nanak Dev Ji obtained the gyan/Jot, he never had any idol, or person who he looked towards or worshiped. It was God, and only God. We all love and respect our parents. Some may even consider them as idols. But will you still celebrate their birthday or their death anniversary when they are gone, or will you remember them by their gunn, their virtues, what they taught you? If you can say that you will, then you are the first that I have come across.

I agree with you, but we, as humans, err and follow a sant and look at them as an example to carry this beautiful Sikhi Jeevan, instead of listening to what they are saying about God. In a sense it becomes idol worship. We should look at them as being blessed beings, but even before that, we should ask ourselves how did they become so blessed? By the Shabad Guru.

I have been through all that myself, but I was never inspired. For me to realize God, it happened because of circumstances in my life. It had no bearing on what happened to our Gurus or any of the shaheeds. I was fortunate, in my teenage years, to have parents that put us in Punjabi school, so we could be taught how to read Gurbani. Throughout my life I would listen about the sacrifices that were made by people for Sikhi, but, for some reason, regardless of how much respect I had for them, it never inspired me to go towards this path. It was an effort that I made to read and interpret Gurbani, sitting amongst saadh sangat, and listening to Guru Ji’s Divine Words that brought me in this path. It was love for Him. It was hunger for Him.

Singh Sahib Professor Darshan Singh Ji is a person I greatly admire for his knowledge of Gurbani. When he was here in Surrey, I saw so much sangat come to listen to his Kirtan. It was amazing. But, how many actually went because he was educating us with the message of Guru Ji, and how many went because he is a recognized keertani? The answer we will never know.

I am in no way saying I don’t have respect for our Guru Ji or that I do not look upon the sacrifices that they made for our dharam. Guru Ji looked past their sacrifices and tortures, and still loved those people who brought upon them these horrible doings, and through all that, still kept remembering God. It was God's Will, and they accepted it. Whatever happened is great, what didn't happen is also great. They did not remember the Guru before them and what sacrifices they made. Look back to some of the credible sakhiyan, do you see any of the Guru’s refer to the previous? Or celebrate their living? (this is my opinion only, for I am still learning, so if I’m wrong, please do correct me). There are many great people in this world, some of which have reached the state of Brahm Gyan, will you celebrate them as well? They are all “living witnesses” to Gurbani.

Remember them. Celebrate them. But don’t confine them to a single day of their birth or death. Celebrate their virtues, their gunn, and try to strive for that living. Our Guru is still living, he is ever present, in every being. So how can we give Him a birthdate or death anniversary?

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[Kharkoo4Life]

Excellent post humble kaur!! Words every Sikh should try to understand and incorporate in their life.