Man Made

[prabh]

today i was asked by a muslim is sikhism man made? now i didnt no quite what he ment by that because surely a religion has be started of by some human e.g like islam was started by Allah and then he sent the prophet mahammed to carry on spending islam..but then how is that differnt to how sikhi was started?

guru Nanak ji was the founder of sikhi rite or wrong? but at the same time people call him a prophet!!

He was hindu?/ yes or no

sikhi is based on the teachings from islam and n some other religion cant remeber which one (think it was hinduism)? right or wrong?

and a final question how did Guru Nanak Dev ji decide that he was going to start sikhi..

help me understand!!!

[Guest Papi]

this is from the 1st vaar by Bhai Gurdaas

bhu vwtIN j`g clIAW jb hI Bey mhMmd Xwrw]

bahu vaattee jaag chaleeaaa(n) jab hee bheae meha(n)madh yaaraa||

When varied sects got prevalent, then Muhammad, the beloved of God was born.

kOm bh`qr sMg kr bhu ibiD bYr ibroD pswrw]

kaam behaathar sa(n)g kar bahu bidhh bair birodhh pasaaraa||

The nation got divided into seventy two divisions and many types of enmity and opposition erupted.

roJy eId nmwJ kr krmI bMd kIAw sMswrw]

rojhae eedh namaajh kar karamee ba(n)dh keeaa sa(n)saaraa||

The world was bound to roza, id, namaz, etc.

pIr pkMbr AOlIAY ZOs kuqb bhu ByK svwrw]

peer paka(n)bar aaleeai g(h)aas kuthab bahu bhaekh savaaraa||

Pirs, paigambars aulias, gaus and qutabs came into being in many countries.

Twkur duAwrY FwihkY iqh TAuVIN msIq auswrw]

t(h)aakur dhuaarai dtaahikai thih t(h)aaurree maseeth ousaaraa||

The temples were replaced by mosques.

mwrn ga grIb DrqI aupr pwp ibQwrw]

maaran gou gareeb dhharathee oupar paap bithhaaraa||

Less powerful were killed and thus the earth became replete with sin.

kwPr mulhd iermnI rUMmI jMgI duSmn dwrw]

kaafar mulehadh eiramanee roo(n)mee ja(n)gee dhushaman dhaaraa||

Armenians and Rumis were declared apostates (Kafirs) and they were decimated in the Battle fields.

pwpy dw vriqAw vrqwrw ]òú]

paapae dhaa varathiaa varathaaraa ||aa||

The sin became ubiquitious all around.

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cwr vrn cwr mJhbW jg ivc ihMdU muslmwxy]

chaar varan chaar majhehabaa(n) jag vich hi(n)dhoo musalamaanae||

There are four castes of Hindus and four sects of Muslims in the world.

KudI bkIlI qk`brI iKMcoqwx kryn iD|wxy]

khudhee bakeelee thakaabaree khi(n)chothaan karaen dhhin(g)aanae||

The members of both religions are selfish, jealous proud, bigoted and violent.

gMg bnwrs ihMdUAW m`kw kwbw muslmwxy]

ga(n)g banaaras hi(n)dhooaaa(n) maakaa kaabaa musalamaanae||

The Hindus make pilgrimage to Hardvar and Banaras, the Muslim to the Kaba of Mecca.

suMnq muslmwn dI iqlk jM\U ihMdU loBwxy]

su(n)nath musalamaan dhee thilak ja(n)n(j)oo hi(n)dhoo lobhaanae||

Circumcision is dear to the Muslims, sandal mark (tilak) and sacred thread to the Hindus.

rwm rhIm khwieMdy iek nwm duie rwh Bulwxy]

raam reheem kehaaei(n)dhae eik naam dhue raah bhulaanae||

The Hindus invoke Ram, the Muslims, Rahim, but in reality there is only One God.

byd kqyb BulwiekY mohy lwlc dunI SYqwxy]

baedh kathaeb bhulaaeikai mohae laalach dhunee shaithaanae||

Since they have forgotten the Vedas and the Katebas, worldly greed and devil have led them astray.

s`c iknwry rih gXw Kih mrdy bwmx maulwxy]

saach kinaarae rehi gayaa khehi maradhae baaman moulaanae||

Truth hidden from both; the brahmins and maulvis kill one another by their animosities.

isroN n imty Awvx jwxy ]òñ]

siro n mittae aavan jaanae ||aa||

Neither sect shall find liberation from transmigration.

[Guest Papi]

continuation of the 1st vaar

suxI pukwr dwqwr pRB gur nwnk jg mwihM pTwXw]

sunee pukaar dhaathaar prabh gur naanak jag maahi pat(h)aayaa||

The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world.

crn Doie rihrws kr crnwimRq is`KW pIlwXw]

charan dhhoe rehiraas kar charanaamrith skhiaa(n) peelaayaa||

He washed His feet, eulogised God and got his Disciples drink the ambrosia of his feet.

pwrbRhm pUrn bRhm kiljug AMdr iek idKwXw]

paarabreham pooran breham kalijug a(n)dhar eik dhikhaayaa||

He preached in this darkage (kaliyug) that, saragun (Brahm) and nirgun (Parbrahm) are the same and identical.

cwrY pYr DrMm dy cwr vrn iek vrn krwXw]

chaarai pair dhhara(n)m dhae chaar varan eik varan karaayaa||

Dharma was now established on its four feet and all the four castes (through fraternal feeling) were converted into one caste (of humanity).

rwxw rMk brwbrI pYrIN pvxw jg vrqwXw]

raanaa ra(n)k baraabaree pairee pavanaa jag varathaayaa||

Equating the poor with the prince, he spread the etiquette of humbly touching the feet.

aultw Kyl iprMm dw pYrW aupr sIs invwXw]

oulattaa khael pira(n)m dhaa pairaa(n) oupar sees nivaayaa||

Inverse is the game of the beloved; he got the egotist high heads bowed to feet.

kiljug bwby qwirAw s`qnwm pVH mMqR suxwXw]

kalijug baabae thaariaa saathanaam parrh ma(n)thr sunaayaa||

Baba Nanak rescued this dark age (kaliyug) and recited 'satinam' mantr for one and all.

kil qwrx gur nwnk AwXw ]òó]

kal thaaran gur naanak aayaa ||aa||

Guru Nanak came to redeem the kaliyug.

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pihlW bwby pwXw bKS dr ipCoN dy iPr Gwl kmweI]

pehilaa(n) baabae paayaa bakhash dhar pishho dhae fir ghaal kamaaee||

First of all Baba Nanak obtained the gate of the grace (of Lord) and then He underwent and earned the rigorous discipline( of heart and mind).

ryq A`k Awhwr kr roVW kI gur krI ivCweI]

raeth aak aahaar kar rorraa(n) kee gur karee vishhaaee||

He fed himself with sand and swallow-wort and made stones his bedding i.e. he enjoyed poverty too.

BwrI krI q`pisAw bfy Bwg hir isauN bix AweI]

bhaaree karee thaapasiaa baddae bhaag har siou ban aaee||

He offered hid full devotion and then he was fortunate to have proximity with God.

bwbw pYDw sc KMf nwiniD nwm grIbI pweI]

baabaa paidhhaa sach kha(n)dd naanidhh naam gareebee paaee||

Baba reached the region of truth wherefrom he received Nam, the storehouse of nine treasures and humility.

bwbw dyKy iDAwn Dr jlqI sB ipRQvI ids AweI]

baabaa dhaekhae dhhiaan dhhar jalathee sabh prithhavee dhis aaee||

In his meditation, Baba found the whole earth burning (with the fire of lust and anger).

bwJhu gurU gubwr hY hYhY krdI suxI lukweI]

baajhahu guroo gubaar hai haihai karadhee sunee lukaaee||

Without Guru there is utter darkness and he heard the cries of the common men.

bwby ByK bxwieAw aud`wsI kI rIq clweI]

baabae bhaekh banaaeiaa oudhaasee kee reeth chalaaee||

To further understand the people, Guru Nanak donned robes in their manner and preached them to be detached (from the pleasure and pain).

ciVHAw soDn Drq lukweI ]òô]

charrihaaa sodhhan dhharath lukaaee ||aa||

Thus he went out to depurate humanity on earth.

[Guest Papi]

still continuation of the 1st Vaar

siqgur nwnk pRgitAw imtI DuMD jg cwnx hoAw]

sathigur naanak pragattiaa mittee dhhu(n)dhh jag chaanan hoaa||

With the emergence of the true Guru Nanak, the mist cleared and the light scattered all around.

ijauN kr sUrj inkilAw qwry Cpy AMDyr ploAw]

jiou kar sooraj nikaliaa thaarae shhapae a(n)dhhaer paloaa||

As if at the sun rise the stars disappeared and the darkness dispelled.

isMG buky imrgwvlI BMnI jwey n DIr DroAw]

si(n)gh bukae miragaavalee bha(n)nee jaaeae n dhheer dhharoaa||

With the roar of the lion in the forest the flocks of escaping deer now cannot have endurance.

ijQY bwbw pYr DrY pUjw Awsx Qwpx soAw]

jithhai baabaa pair dhharai poojaa aasan thhaapan soaa||

Wherever Baba put his feet, a religious place was erected and established.

isD Awsx sB jgq dy nwnk Awd mqy jy koAw]

sidhh aasan sabh jagath dhae naanak aadh mathae jae koaa||

All the siddh-places now have been renamed on the name of Nanak.

Gr Gr AMdr Drmswl hovY kIrqn sdw ivsoAw]

ghar ghar a(n)dhar dhharamasaal hovai keerathan sadhaa visoaa||

Everyhome has become a place of dharma where singing.

bwby qwry cwr ck nO KMf ipRQmI scw FoAw]

baabae thaarae chaar chak na kha(n)dd prithhamee sachaa dtoaa||

Baba liberated all four directions and nine divisions of earth.

gurmuK kil ivc prgt hoAw ]ò÷]

guramukh kal vich paragatt hoaa ||aa||

Gurmukh (Guru Nanak) has emerged in this kaliyug, the dark age.

[sher_panjabi]

Q: The Quran was revealed through Muhammad, the chosen Messenger. The Angel Gabriel came to him, like the other Prophets to give the good news of their Prophet hood. Wasn’t Guru Nanak a normal holy man who was revered by Hindus and Muslims alike, however not a Prophet or Messenger of God like Muhammad?

A: As for Gabriel informing the prophets, we have already said that the Gurus were far above the angels. BaaNee tells us that angels are finite creatures and seek the dust of Gursikhs. It is said that Hazrat Muhammad Sahib became the Messenger of God at the age of 40. However, Guru Nanak Sahib jee was born the embodiment of the Truth, the Image of God.

Guru Nanak Sahib jee was informed of his duty by the Almighty Lord Himself, not by any angel:

pauVI ] hau FwFI vykwru kwrY lwieAw ] rwiq idhY kY vwr Durhu PurmwieAw ] FwFI scY mhil Ksim bulwieAw ] scI isPiq swlwh kpVw pwieAw ] scw AMimRq nwmu Bojnu AwieAw ] gurmqI KwDw rij iqin suKu pwieAw ] FwFI kry pswau sbdu vjwieAw ] nwnk scu swlwih pUrw pwieAw ]27] suDu ]

“Pauree: I was free of work, when Vaheguru took me into His service and gave the (true) work of being minstrel. Right from the start, Vaheguru gave me His Hukam (Order) to sing His Praises day and night. Vaheguru, my Lord and Master summoned me, His minstrel, to the True Mansion of His Presence. (Vaheguru,) the Image of True Praise and Glory, gave me the Siropaao, robe of honour. The spiritual-life giving Name, Amrit Naam, the True Name, which gives eternal spiritual life, has become my food (for my soul‘s support). Those who follow the Guru's Teachings, who eat this food (of ‘Amrit Naam’) with satisfaction, obtain peace. His minstrel, (Guru Nanak Sahib jee), spreads His Glory, singing and vibrating the Word of His Shabad (meaning, enjoying the ecstasy of Naam). O Nanak! Praising the True Lord, one obtains the Perfect Lord. ||27||Shudh||”

(Ang 150)

Q: Sikhs believe the religion of ‘Gurmat and Naam’ preached by Guru Nanak is Supreme. But what was before Guru Nanak? Did anyone get to God or Sachkhand before Guru Nanak?

A: Sikhs believe that the Almighty Himself sent his Guru form, the True Guru, Guru Nanak Sahib jee to save the world. As mentioned early, in essence Guru Nanak Sahib jee was no human, but the Divine Infinite Wisdom, and therefore existed throughout time to save the Seeker of Truth from spiritual darkness of ignorance:

qU siqguru chu jugI Awip Awpy prmysru ]

suir nr swiDk isD isK syvMq Durh Duru ]

Awid jugwid Anwid klw DwrI iqRhu loAh ]

Agm ingm auDrx jrw jMimih AwroAh ]

gur Amrdwis iQru QipAau prgwmI qwrx qrx ]

AG AMqk bdY n sl´ kiv gur rwmdws qyrI srx ]2]60]

“You are the True Guru, throughout the four ages; You Yourself are the Transcendent Lord. The angelic beings, seekers, Sidhs and Sikhs have served You, since the very beginning of time. You are primal, from the very beginning, and throughout the ages; Your Power supports the three worlds.”

(Ang 1406)

True Guru, the Infinite Divine Wisdom, is one with God and there remains no difference between the two. It is like a drop of water in the ocean. There is only ‘One God’, and True Guru remains immersed in Him and shows the Path to the Seeker of Truth and helps on the spiritual journey.

Q. Some Muslim scholars (like Giani Abadullah) claim that Guru Nanak was a Muslim, using various textbooks to examine the way of life and practices of Guru Nanak. Is this believable?

A: Writing such books the authors simply try to disturb the hornet’s nest. The Sikhs do not pick holes in other’s coats. A Sikh respects every person’s belief and does not intentionally wish to cause hurt to someone’s sentiments. To call such authors true “Muslims,” as in the eyes of Guru Nanak Sahib jee, would be regrettable.

mÚ 1 ]

pMij invwjw vKq pMij pMjw pMjy nwau ]

pihlw scu hlwl duie qIjw KYr Kudwie ]

cauQI nIAiq rwis mnu pMjvI isPiq snwie ]

krxI klmw AwiK kY qw muslmwxu sdwie ]

nwnk jyqy kUiVAwr kUVY kUVI pwie ]3]

“First Mehl: (For Muslims) there are five prayers and five times of day for prayer (for them); the five have five (different) names. (But the true prayers are these –) The first prayer is to speak the truth, the second prayer is honestly earned living, and the third is asking for the good of all in the Name of God. The fourth prayer is to keep one’s intentions clean, keeping the mind clean, and the fifth prayer is to praise the greatness of the Lord. (Alongside these five prayers) repeat the physical prayer (Kalima) of keeping a high moral character, you may call yourself a Muslim (meaning, only then one can call themselves a true Muslim). O Nanak! (Those who are parted from these prayers and kalima) however many they are they are merchants of falsehood, and falsehood’s honour is only false. ||3||”

(Ang 141)

If Guru Nanak Sahib jee had been a Muslim he would have done the following:

1. He would have written the whole Muslim Kalima or at least Bismillah ur Rehman ur Rahim at the head of every composition.

2. He would not have produced another set of hymns when the Quran was available already.

3. He would himself have initiated Bhai Lehna jee (the second Sikh Guru) to Islam and instructed him to visit Mecca for Hajj every year. Neither any Guru nor their followers visited Mecca after Guru Nanak Sahib jee.

4. He would have copiously praised the Quran and mentioned the name of the Hazrat Mohammed Sahib reverently. There is nohing to that end in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee.

5. He would not have criticised the Muslim practices. His invectives specially against Roza (fasting) and Qazis (Muslim priests) are too much for a Muslim to swallow.

[kaur_khalistani_lioness]

waheguruji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh jio!

when i read the second post (bhai Gurdas ji's //)...i couldnt help but to think about the "hatred" topic. is it me or do they both kinda go with eachother?

Thnaks ji!

[prabh]

yeh but i have read it my self in educational books in scholl that sikhi is based on values and morals that have been acquired from the islam faith and hinduism? is that true?

and another thing sikhi is probably the shortest living religion going because islam and hinduism was well introduced before sikhi?....

[Revolutionary]

today i was asked by a muslim is sikhism man made? now i didnt no quite what he ment by that because surely a religion has be started of by some human

No.. its likely he meant the "other" way. ie: Islam = "godmade" whiole Sikhi = "made up by a person"

guru Nanak ji was the founder of sikhi rite or wrong? but at the same time people call him a prophet!!

You can say the same for Mohamed "founded Islam"

He was hindu?/ yes or no

NO. He refused to follow ANY useless ritual!!! No janeyo. No feeding the sun with water. No fasting. No havans. Hor kee dasa???

sikhi is based on the teachings from islam and n some other religion cant remeber which one (think it was hinduism)? right or wrong?

WRONG. If Sikhi was based on the 2 religions then how can Guru Sahib Ji bluntly REFUSE to follow the FOUNDATIONS of them? Ie: 5 pillars of islam - 1 of them being to fast and 1 to go to hajj. Now.. Guru Ji said that fasting and going pilgrimages will not help you to obtain God.

Same applies for Hinduism - Rituals/Fasting/Pilgrimages/idol worship.

You see, Guru Sahib Ji beleived in common sense. He knew that jsut merely going places/starving yourself/waving a candle around an idol wont help clean your soul! Take more than that.

yeh but i have read it my self in educational books in scholl that sikhi is based on values and morals that have been acquired from the islam faith and hinduism? is that true?

Educational books also say the Naam is "Raareguru" instead of Waheguru.. :wub: @ See the reliability of your source?

Hope I answered your questions.