Oldest Surviving Rehat Manuscript (1718/1719 Ad)

[GPS]

Such as those who say Kali was invoked before the creation of the Khalsa? If you're looking for a page number or an official source I haven't got one, but I've seen people mention it in this thread and others on this website.

That is why this discussion is on. That is the raeson quotes from Chaupa singh rehtanama are being given with Gurbani

verses. Extract of relevant part of amrit ceremony was also posted.

Guru sahib says

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨੋ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਜੇਤਾ ਜਗਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥

सतिगुर नो सभु को वेखदा जेता जगतु संसारु ॥

Saṯgur no sabẖ ko vekẖ▫ḏā jeṯā jagaṯ sansār.

All the living beings of the world behold the True Guru.

ਡਿਠੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

डिठै मुकति न होवई जिचरु सबदि न करे वीचारु ॥

Diṯẖai mukaṯ na hova▫ī jicẖar sabaḏ na kare vīcẖār.

One is not liberated by merely seeing Him, unless one contemplates the Word of His Shabad.

Rehtanama Bhai Chaupa singh ji

Mere mentioning of something by someone does not convert a lie into truth.

[dalsingh101]

Ask your friend to post the proof here. There is one rehatnama of Bhai chaupa singh and its copy was available with sikh reference library till 1984.

I don't know why you are going on about this now. We've identified that the Kali story is only contained in some versions. The GNDU manuscript is a much later one than the lost one McLeod made a copy of (SRL version). The SRL version (the older one) doesn't include the kali story so whoever scribed the GNDU version must have added it in at a later date, in the 1800s sometime.

There is no mystery to solve here. Things are pretty straight forward. The big question to my mind now is why so many Internet based accounts of the Chaupa Singh rehit go on like all or even most versions contain the Kali story, when this does not appear to be true.

Again, where are you getting your text of the Chaupa rehit from?

Can I interject and ask who (and why) would add these references to Hindu goddesses in a way that portrays Guru Ji as a devotee of these deities? Is it mischief making or not?

There are various theories. This tale seems to have become quite widespread by the late 1700s it seems. I don't believe dasmesh pita was a worshiper of devi myself. Sure, they used and adapted kali/durga myths from Markandeya Puranas to inspire Sikhs for war but nothing in Sikhi suggests the worship of anything but the one Akaal Purakh. Check out Bhai Vir Singh's writings here for a good analysis. Goto post 3 (Devi in Gurmat).

[GPS]

I don't know why you are going on about this now. We've identified that the Kali story is only contained in some versions. The GNDU manuscript is a much later one than the lost one McLeod made a copy of (SRL version). The SRL version (the older one) doesn't include the kali story so whoever scribed the GNDU version must have added it in at a later date, in the 1800s sometime.

There is no kali pargat story in Chaupa singh's rehatnama. That is why i am stating this.

You are still insisting on kali point.

There is only one rehatnama of Bhai chaupa singh ji. I am mentioning about Padam's version.I hope Mcleod has not fabricated one more.

[VanHelsingh]

Okay thank-you. Personally I think the use of Hindu deities / myths, etc., were (as dalsingh says) more to do with story-telling rather than the advocation of these deities for worship.

[GPS]

There are various theories. This tale seems to have become quite widespread by the late 1700s it seems. I don't believe dasmesh pita was a worshiper of devi myself. Sure, they used and adapted kali/durga myths from Markandeya Puranas to inspire Sikhs for war but nothing in Sikhi suggests the worship of anything but the one Akaal Purakh. Check out Bhai Vir Singh's writings here for a good analysis. Goto post 3 (Devi in Gurmat).

Dashmesh pita is the one who wrote Dasam Granth sahib describing Devi/devtas as a mere creation of akal purakh.

Dasam pita dictated Aad Granth from his memory at damdama sahib.

That is enough for sikhs to know what was his belief. Only ignorant s will call him devotee of any multi armed devi.

[GPS]

Okay thank-you. Personally I think the use of Hindu deities / myths, etc., were (as dalsingh says) more to do with story-telling rather than the advocation of these deities for worship.

It is lack of understanding and misbelief in Guru sahib's teachings. For example someone may misinterpret the following verse

and call Guru Arjan dev ji as shiv poojak. But that is not true. Pseudo scholars are doing great disservice to Guru Gobind singh ji

by distorting his bani.Some are ignorants and some have agenda.

ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਹਾਟਿਓ ॥

निंदकु गुर किरपा ते हाटिओ ॥

Ninḏak gur kirpā ṯe hāti▫o.

The slanderer, by Guru's Grace, has been turned away.

>ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਏ ਦਇਆਲਾ ਸਿਵ ਕੈ ਬਾਣਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਕਾਟਿਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

पारब्रहम प्रभ भए दइआला सिव कै बाणि सिरु काटिओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Pārbarahm parabẖ bẖa▫e ḏa▫i▫ālā siv kai bāṇ sir kāti▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.

The Supreme Lord God has become merciful; with Shiva's arrow, He shot his head off. ||1||Pause||

SGGS ji

[dalsingh101]

There is no kali pargat story in Chaupa singh's rehatnama. That is why i am stating this.

You are still insisting on kali point.

There is only one rehatnama of Bhai chaupa singh ji. I am mentioning about Padam's version.I hope Mcleod has not fabricated one more.

Well we have a manuscript number and location of the one that purportedly contains the Durga story, so if anyone has the contacts and desire, they could easily check.

I don't understand what you are saying entirely. My understanding right now is that most Chaupa Singh rehats do NOT contain the Devi tale, however one dating from sometime in the 1800s may have (the GNDU one), unless McLeod is lying.

Please understand and move on.

To summarise some main points of the debate so far.

MS 770 (as recorded in the OP) is an incomplete document with large sections missing compared to other later versions (presuming its dating is correct).

There are claims that parts of the Chaupa Singh rehit predate this one (MS 770) but no one has provided the extracted text of this.

Various versions of the rehats exist, including a later Chaupa Singh one which refers to the devi pargat story by dasmesh pita (at GNDU).

The surviving Chaupa Singh rehat has interpolations from at least his grandson.

No unadulterated puratan complete rehat seems to have surfaced as of yet.

For some reason, the inclusion of the devi tale in a Chaupa Singh rahit seems to have falsely cause a widespread impression that this is a central feature of all CS rahits, based on Internet based accounts.

Would you say that is a fair representation?

[GPS]

I don't understand what you are saying entirely. My understanding right now is that most Chaupa Singh rehats do NOT contain the Devi tale, however one dating from sometime in the 1800s may have (the GNDU one), unless McLeod is lying.

I am stating that mcleod got the copy made from rehtanama that was present in Sikh reference library.

Its copy was presented to Guru Nanak dev university.

It does not have story of any devi pargat. I hope Mcleod has not fabricated another rehtanama. may be your friend is knowing that.

Standard text of that rehtanama is in Padam's book and you had posted its PDF version also.

You are right when you say that chaupa singh rehtanama does not have any devi pargat in 1699. Chapa singh rerhatnama contains a lot

of Gurbani quotes to disprove this propaganda which is being attached to his rehtanama.

There are many stories going on internet with an aim to discredit our Gurus, scriptures and sikh history.

We should not believe those.

[dalsingh101]

I am stating that mcleod got the copy made from rehtanama that was present in Sikh reference library.

Its copy was presented to Guru Nanak dev university.

It does not have story of any devi pargat. I hope Mcleod has not fabricated another rehtanama. may be your friend is knowing that.

Well according to his own work (see endnote 48 on page 250 of 'Sikhs of the Khalsa'), it says the devi story is included in his Chaupa rahit translation between pages 85 - 90?

Unless someone can check it, we can't tell if he has made this up. Personally I doubt he would get that slack to get caught out so easily?

It is confusing, I know. Unless someone has his Chaupa rahit translation (which is hard to get hold of apparently) we can't check?

I found this on Tapoban, worth reading the full post:

The Manuscripts

W H McLeod was able to trace only four copies of the rahitnama. He believes that because of the long-standing doubts attached to the text's credentials, not many manuscripts from the 18th century now survive.

1. Sikh Reference Library (SRL) Text

Until 1984 the Sikh Reference Library in Amritsar had a manuscript (Catalogue No. 6124). The Library was, however, destroyed during the Blue Star attack on the Golden Temple Complex, and thus the manuscript was lost. This was the only surviving copy of the 18th century manuscript. However, Dr McLeod had made a copy of it and lodged it with the Guru Nanak Dev University, Amritsar.

2. The Khalsa College Text

Held in the Sikh Reference Department of the Khalsa College Amritsar, it is a modern transcription of the combined Chaupa Singh / Nand Lal text (Manuscript no. SHR 277). It was copied from a manuscript held by Gurdwara Damdama Sahib, Talwandi Sabo. In text it follows the Sikh Reference Library manuscript so closely that it could be its direct copy. The minor inconsistencies that exist could be expected from an inexperienced copyist.

3. The Guru Nanak Dev University Text (MS 1018)

Scribed by one Harnam Singh Khatri in 1856-57, it comprises two separate collections brought together in a single binding, "The first part is obviously taken from an earlier manuscript which was evidently dismantled and divided." The second segment continues the Chaupa Singh Rahitnama and carries it to its conclusion. It also includes the Nand Lal Rahitnama at the end after recording a material account of the inauguration of the Khalsa. "In terms of script and general presentation Guru Nanak Dev University text is even neater and clearer than the Sikh Reference Library text."

4. The Piara Singh Padam (PSP) Text

Piara Singh Padam seems to have transcribed and published the copy made by Randhir Singh as far as Chaupa Singh Rahitnama part is concerned. It is certainly not a copy of the Sikh Reference Library text. "There are numerous variants distinguishing the Piara Singh Padam text from the other versions. Four of the variants which deserve notice are :

[GPS]

Do not forget the writer of the article. he is Kharak singh Mann a buddy of Kala afghana.

He should be ashamed of discrediting Padam's work especially when Padam has mentioned

about existence of copy of this rehtanama in Sikh reference library.

Padam writes

In the past Chaupa singh's rehtanama Manuscript was available with Chhiber family of Gujerat ( a district of punjab and now in Pakistan)

Its copy made in 1764 is safe in sikh reference library, Amritsar. Its no is 6124. One copy of same is available with Giani Karnail singh

of Amrtisar.Its copy was amde by BHai randhir singh ji. I have uswed the same copy.

Unquote

So assertions of Mcleod, Kharak Mann of kala afghana lobby are mischievous and misleading.The same kharak singh Mann writes

derogatory about Dasam granth also.