Questioned About Kesh And Dastar

[Balwinder Singh]

I was always taught it was so Sikhs couldn't hide themselves like many Delhi Sikhs did when Guru Tegh Bahadhur was publically executed and people denied being Sikh when the soldiers challenged them to protect their Guru.

Well, do you think giving an external "shape" provides you with internal strength to stand up? I think internal strength is MOST important......A person may have an external shape and may be very timid from inside. ...but a person who is strong internally will stand against operression ..no matter what....I think Guru ji very well recognized that.

Any thoughts?

[dalsingh101]

I was always taught it was so Sikhs couldn't hide themselves like many Delhi Sikhs did when Guru Tegh Bahadhur was publically executed and people denied being Sikh when the soldiers challenged them to protect their Guru.

Well, do you think giving an external "shape" provides you with internal strength to stand up? I think internal strength is MOST important......A person may have an external shape and may be very timid from inside. ...but a person who is strong internally will stand against operression ..no matter what....I think Guru ji very well recognized that.

Any thoughts?

Well I thought that by doing that Guru ji was forcing the hand of the people who were internally weak. They would have left. You can see that he didn't mean kesh to be for everyone but only people who can pass a test that proved their bravery and loyalty. The kesh was the outward symbol of the inner belief of a Sikh.

What messes up is when people have the outer look but weak belief inside. That is why people should not be compelled to do it until they fully understand what is involved.

By the way...all of the hair we can visibly see is dead.

[Balwinder Singh]

Well I thought that by doing that Guru ji was forcing the hand of the people who were internally weak.

The following statement contradicts the statement above. Please be consistent. I think we agree that guru ji NEVER forced anybdy.

What messes up is when people have the outer look but weak belief inside. That is why people should not be compelled to do it until they fully understand what is involved.

By the way...all of the hair we can visibly see is dead.

Please explain if I missed your point.

[dalsingh101]

Well I thought that by doing that Guru ji was forcing the hand of the people who were internally weak.

The following statement contradicts the statement above. Please be consistent. I think we agree that guru ji NEVER forced anybdy.

What messes up is when people have the outer look but weak belief inside. That is why people should not be compelled to do it until they fully understand what is involved.

By the way...all of the hair we can visibly see is dead.

Please explain if I missed your point.

When I said "forced their hand" I think you misunderstood. What I basically meant was that it compelled people to dramatically and visibly show their loyalty. The first five did it will FULL conviction in their leader.

[Balwinder Singh]

What you said is just another way of forcing. Loyality cannot be compelled.....it has to be from within...you cant MAKE somebdy loyal....it has to be inbuilt. What I am saying is that, external appearance cannot infuse internal strength in anybdy, internal strength is a grace.

Also, the sakhi you mentioned to back up your hypothesis also reveals that sikhs before guru gobind singh ji were weak in some sense and they required a special "outer" appearance to show their bravery. I think sikh before guru gobind singh ji were also brave and were ready to sacrifice their life for truth and justice.

Also, without FULL conviction we cannot reach anywhere. Its a path where "faith" is required not "half" or "blind" faith.

[dalsingh101]

What you said is just another way of forcing. Loyality cannot be compelled.....it has to be from within...you cant MAKE somebdy loyal....it has to be inbuilt. What I am saying is that, external appearance cannot infuse internal strength in anybdy, internal strength is a grace.

That is not how I see it. I see it more as drawing line and asking "where do you stand?" This is what I meant by "forcing their hand" They had to make a decision and given the critical nature of the time then, Guru ji obviously couldn't wait around forever for this!! . So the only thing Guru ji forced was some introspection and then a decision. Like a top leader.

Also, the sakhi you mentioned to back up your hypothesis also reveals that sikhs before guru gobind singh ji were weak in some sense and they required a special "outer" appearance to show their bravery. I think sikh before guru gobind singh ji were also brave and were ready to sacrifice their life for truth and justice.

I think that comparatively speaking the number of preKhalsa Sikhs who would make sacrifices like the postKhalsa Sikhs did were MUCH smaller. I'm not saying brave Sikhs didn't exist but the fact that earlier Gurus (like Guru Hargbind) had to rely on mercenaries for military purposes means that they were unable to fully draw on the Sikh community for soldiers at that time. This changed after 1699.

Also, without FULL conviction we cannot reach anywhere. Its a path where "faith" is required not "half" or "blind" faith.

I absolutely agree. But don't be naive to the fact that even in the Gurus time, loyalty or faith could wobble. Look at the 40 muktay for example. They were baptised Sikhs who were physically around Guru Gobind Singh ji and they deserted. Also if you read Bachitar Natak, it clearly states that after a particular battle, Guru ji returned to Anandpur and expelled those who did not fight with them earlier whilst rewarding those that showed bravery.

Going back to the original post. There is no need to go into these protracted explanations of kesh. If people ask, just say it made people who truly believed visible so they could not deny their faith when tested, like at the Delhi incident.

That makes sense and is backed by history (Rattan Singh Bhangu says the same thing about the distinct look of the Khalsa.) Also it makes sense in light of all the other steps Guru ji took to lift up the people and inspire them to be brave (i.e baptism with sword not feet, name change to "Lion", playing down of caste etc.)

All the other "mystical" explanations can be blown apart by anyone with half a brain. I've seen this happen many times back in the day, and Sikhs get demoralised over this even more.

Keep it simple and keep it rational.

[singhni wannabe]

What messes up is when people have the outer look but weak belief inside. That is why people should not be compelled to do it until they fully understand what is involved.

By the way...all of the hair we can visibly see is dead.

Vaheguroo ji ka khalsa vaheguroo ji ki fateh

I totally agree people wear the panj kakaars but when asked why some people dont know it is good people are coming into sikhi however we should know as a sikh why we follow rehit and practice certain aspects of sikhism!

Vaheguroo ji ka khalsa vaheguroo ji ki fateh