Do Sants Exist?

[SunSingh]

one thing i'd like to add, yuktanand singh mentions that a true sant wouldn't like it when called a sant, however, true sant is indifferent to such things. some may dislike it, others may totally not care. :lol:

[SunSingh]

In conclusion, those who do not believe in sants, do not believe in Gurbani. And what can one say of a "Sikh" who openly disobeys his Father's teachings?

[TejiKaur]

o waheguru

they have to exist

God runs this world for his saints

wjkk wjkf!!

just a thought and i could be very wrong

could it be:

God runs this world through his saints if u know what i mean? :umm:

im still learning so forgive me for my foolishness

akal sahai

wjkk wjkf!

a lil of both

im just quoting from gurbani

in guru granth sahib ji it talks about how God does everthing for his sants

[SunSingh]

I think at this point we should ask ourselves, why is there so much confusion? Why do so many scholars say that sants do not exist?

I think there are two reasons for this:

1) To prevent people from being misled by a fake sant. - This viewpoint shows a lack of sharda on the individual's part. Fake sants existsed during the Guru's time as well. Recall Sajjan Thag, who masquaraded as a holy man to steal people's belongings. Nobody has any right to mislead people about Gurmat Marg. Those who do this for another's "own good" are acting in haumai.

2) To deliberately mislead people as sants teach things that are different from the so called scholar's own ideology. These "scholars" often use the excuse in number one. Examples of such liars and underminers of the Guru's teachings include Singh Sabha International and Canadian Singh Sabha (who attempt to use the good name of the Singh Sabha movement to portray themselves as reformers when they are anything but that).

The following video shows immense nindya of the Guru's sants, gurmukhs such as Baba Gurbachan Singh ji:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-20...JzwAw&hl=en

The video highlights the fanatical, narrow minded aspects of these dangerous anti-panthic groups.

The reason that non-scholars promote that sants don't exist, or that we don't need sants is often due to the initial ideology (version of Sikhi) they are taught when they enter the religion. The first ideology has enormous impact on them, and they cling to it despite powerful evidence to the contrary. They then wish to buttress support for it by turning people away from those who teach otherwise (eg. sants teaching Gurmat).

[Akritghan]

that video is disgusting doing nindiya of Mahapurakhs made me wanna cry :cry:

[Anonymous_kaur]

there are many tuks in gurbanii that talk about sants and i am just going to post one !!

ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

भैरउ महला ५ ॥

Bẖairo mehlā 5.

Bhairao, Fifth Mehl:

ਸੰਤ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਜੋਨੀ ਭਵਨਾ ॥

संत की निंदा जोनी भवना ॥

Sanṯ kī ninḏā jonī bẖavnā.

Slandering the Saints, the mortal wanders in reincarnation.

ਸੰਤ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਰੋਗੀ ਕਰਨਾ ॥

संत की निंदा रोगी करना ॥

Sanṯ kī ninḏā rogī karnā.

Slandering the Saints, he is diseased.

ਸੰਤ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਦੂਖ ਸਹਾਮ ॥

संत की निंदा दूख सहाम ॥

Sanṯ kī ninḏā ḏūkẖ sahām.

Slandering the Saints, he suffers in pain.

ਡਾਨੁ ਦੈਤ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਕਉ ਜਾਮ ॥੧॥

डानु दैत निंदक कउ जाम ॥१॥

Dān ḏaiṯ ninḏak ka­o jām. ||1||

The slanderer is punished by the Messenger of Death. ||1||

ਸੰਤਸੰਗਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਜੋ ਬਾਦੁ ॥

संतसंगि करहि जो बादु ॥

Saṯsang karahi jo bāḏ.

Those who argue and fight with the Saints -

ਤਿਨ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਸਾਦੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

तिन निंदक नाही किछु सादु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Ŧin ninḏak nāhī kicẖẖ sāḏ. ||1|| rahā­o.

those slanderers find no happiness at all. ||1||Pause||

ਭਗਤ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕੰਧੁ ਛੇਦਾਵੈ ॥

भगत की निंदा कंधु छेदावै ॥

Bẖagaṯ kī ninḏā kanḏẖ cẖẖėḏāvai.

Slandering the devotees, the wall of the mortal's body is shattered.

ਭਗਤ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਨਰਕੁ ਭੁੰਚਾਵੈ ॥

भगत की निंदा नरकु भुंचावै ॥

Bẖagaṯ kī ninḏā narak bẖuncẖāvai.

Slandering the devotees, he suffers in hell.

ਭਗਤ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਗਰਭ ਮਹਿ ਗਲੈ ॥

भगत की निंदा गरभ महि गलै ॥

Bẖagaṯ kī ninḏā garabẖ meh galai.

Slandering the devotees, he rots in the womb.

ਭਗਤ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਰਾਜ ਤੇ ਟਲੈ ॥੨॥

भगत की निंदा राज ते टलै ॥२॥

Bẖagaṯ kī ninḏā rāj ṯė talai. ||2||

Slandering the devotees, he loses his realm and power. ||2||

ਨਿੰਦਕ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਤਹੂ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

निंदक की गति कतहू नाहि ॥

Ninḏak kī gaṯ kaṯhū nāhi.

The slanderer finds no salvation at all.

ਆਪਿ ਬੀਜਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥

आपि बीजि आपे ही खाहि ॥

Āp bīj āpė hī kẖāhi.

He eats only that which he himself has planted.

ਚੋਰ ਜਾਰ ਜੂਆਰ ਤੇ ਬੁਰਾ ॥

चोर जार जूआर ते बुरा ॥

Cẖor jār jū­ār ṯė burā.

He is worse than a thief, a lecher, or a gambler.

ਅਣਹੋਦਾ ਭਾਰੁ ਨਿੰਦਕਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਧਰਾ ॥੩॥

अणहोदा भारु निंदकि सिरि धरा ॥३॥

Aṇhoḏā bẖār ninḏak sir ḏẖarā. ||3||

The slanderer places an unbearable burden upon his head. ||3||

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਭਗਤ ਨਿਰਵੈਰ ॥

पारब्रहम के भगत निरवैर ॥

Pārbarahm kė bẖagaṯ nirvair.

The devotees of the Supreme Lord God are beyond hate and vengeance.

ਸੋ ਨਿਸਤਰੈ ਜੋ ਪੂਜੈ ਪੈਰ ॥

सो निसतरै जो पूजै पैर ॥

So nisṯarai jo pūjai pair.

Whoever worships their feet is emancipated.

ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਭੋਲਾਇਆ ॥

आदि पुरखि निंदकु भोलाइआ ॥

Āḏ purakẖ ninḏak bẖolā­i­ā.

The Primal Lord God has deluded and confused the slanderer.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਮਿਟਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੨੧॥੩੪॥

नानक किरतु न जाइ मिटाइआ ॥४॥२१॥३४॥

Nānak kiraṯ na jā­ė mitā­i­ā. ||4||21||34||

O Nanak, the record of one's past actions cannot be erased. ||4||21||34||

[SunSingh]

http://www.sikhism.us/hard-talk/21970-what...alsa-panth.html

thread showing mindet of some people. Considering that a person cannot be a sant b/c he (Baba Isher Singh ji) wore sunglasses in conditions of low light :rolleyes: .

I guess it's good to keep a sense of humour about such people's opinions, as it helps keep bir russ at bay. Such people cannot be convinced, it's parchaar to normal people, still learnign about this stuff that's important.

[_!_GUPT_!_]

I believe Sant's exist but i believe if they were real san's they would stay GUPT and i believe the same with baba's!

[SunSingh]

I believe Sant's exist but i believe if they were real san's they would stay GUPT and i believe the same with baba's!

yes, but where does it state this requirement in Gurbani???? Nowhere. In fact it tells people explicitly to seek guidance from sants, meaning that true sants, even during the Guru's time, were not always gupt.

we need to always reexamine our assumptions in the light of Gurbani. For exxample, when I first came into sikhi I was a bit confused as to whether sants existed, there was so much wrong prachaar and i was taken in by it. Then I learned trhough my own examination of Gurbani that they do.

[singh_bling]

I believe Sant's exist but i believe if they were real san's they would stay GUPT and i believe the same with baba's!

not all sant mahapuraks are gupt, it depends, sum mahapuraks are given dutys for the phala of sangat, sum may remain gupt and sit in jungles or caves in mountains doing tapasiya. for example sant baba isher singh ji rara sahib wale they did bachan before they left for sachkand sayin maharaj had blessed me with the duty of kirtan for so many years and now my body cant take no more, i have cum to the place wer this vessel is to burst. and they left for sachkand in bhai inderjeet singh billus house in wolverhampton, they had told the singhs the night before and hinted in one of ther last diwaans that they wer no longer to do anymore kirtan and wer to go.