Panjab Radio

[apne]

Can anyone tell me if there is any source, british or gurmukhi sikh, mentioning that prakash of DG was done alongside SGGS by Sikhs before Malcolm.

[Inder Singh]

Can anyone tell me if there is any source, british or gurmukhi sikh, mentioning that prakash of DG was done alongside SGGS by Sikhs before Malcolm.

It is not question of parkash in parallel.It is misconceived notion being propagated by anti dasam granth jundli to create a scare.DG is composition of tenth guru.It needs to be respected.Sikhs ubnderstand SGGS is eternal Guru.

Traditions are a continuty of events from generations to generations.Confederacies and Ranjit singh followed what was in practice already.There is ibaratnama in persian by a

Muslim writer who details accounts of Dasam Granth being a part of sikh practices.

[Inder Singh]

Can anyone tell me if there is any source, british or gurmukhi sikh, mentioning that prakash of DG was done alongside SGGS by Sikhs before Malcolm.

Raed below link.There was parkash of dasam Granth at akal takhat as well till 1942.

http://www.sridasamgranth.com/

[apne]

Why do the website need to display Gobind Sadan Institute article. So does that mean doing 'havans' and worshipping 'krishna' and 'jesus' is puratan reet of Sikhs. Also Gobind Sadan is very clear on the issue that in DG 'Krishna' 'Shiva' etc. are not Metaphors but real figures. And what is the role of Namdharis in this seminar "Harvinder Singh Hanspal, Chairman, Namdhari Darbar" http://www.sridasamgranth.com/#/gobindsada...ar07/4527738063.

"Dr. Surjit Kaur Jolly, Principal SPM College, Delhi University, spoke on Krishan Avtar emphasizing that Guru Gobind Singh ji praised Krishan Maharaj ji's qualities as a great warrior and his kindness towards the people, showing that he was so much more than just the simple romantic as the world often portrays him. Through Krishan Avtar, Guru Gobind Singh ji teaches the kings the qualities of good rulership and instructs us in the qualities necessary to be a good human beings in the world today."

"Gobind Sadan has always taken strong action against those who breaks the rules of Sikh Maryada. We have and will continue to take all steps possible to inform and educate the sangat," Babaji added.

So, singh sahib i think it is time that we Sikhs bring back our lost and original rahit maryada back. i would advise by installing back the removed idols of ram and sita in darbar sahib and reviving age old practise of doing havans.

On a departing note, i would like to know the future of khalsa panth as stated in website. "The compositions of the Granth written between 1695 and 1704 sets out the ideas, thoughts and future achievements of the Nanak panth as enshrined in the Khalsa."

[SunSingh]

Why do the website need to display Gobind Sadan Institute article. So does that mean doing 'havans' and worshipping 'krishna' and 'jesus' is puratan reet of Sikhs. Also Gobind Sadan is very clear on the issue that in DG 'Krishna' 'Shiva' etc. are not Metaphors but real figures. And what is the role of Namdharis in this seminar "Harvinder Singh Hanspal, Chairman, Namdhari Darbar" http://www.sridasamgranth.com/#/gobindsada...ar07/4527738063.

"Dr. Surjit Kaur Jolly, Principal SPM College, Delhi University, spoke on Krishan Avtar emphasizing that Guru Gobind Singh ji praised Krishan Maharaj ji's qualities as a great warrior and his kindness towards the people, showing that he was so much more than just the simple romantic as the world often portrays him. Through Krishan Avtar, Guru Gobind Singh ji teaches the kings the qualities of good rulership and instructs us in the qualities necessary to be a good human beings in the world today."

Krishna and these other avtars did exist. They are real and not metaphorical. When Sikhs reach a certain avastha they get darshan of these figures. Prophet Mohammed, Jesus Christ, Rishhi Munni, I have heard come and give darshan to show respect to the one doing bhagti.

"Gobind Sadan has always taken strong action against those who breaks the rules of Sikh Maryada. We have and will continue to take all steps possible to inform and educate the sangat," Babaji added.

So, singh sahib i think it is time that we Sikhs bring back our lost and original rahit maryada back. i would advise by installing back the removed idols of ram and sita in darbar sahib and reviving age old practise of doing havans.

On a departing note, i would like to know the future of khalsa panth as stated in website. "The compositions of the Granth written between 1695 and 1704 sets out the ideas, thoughts and future achievements of the Nanak panth as enshrined in the Khalsa."

Apne, Gobind Sadan is actually set up as an interfaith institute, trying to promote understanding etc between faiths. They are not in anyway saying Hindu rituals are part of Sikh dharm.

Would you also do nindya of Bhagat Puran Singh ji Pingalwara for setting up a Hindu shrine as well as shrines for other dharms even before he set up one for Sikhs?

[Inder Singh]

Why do the website need to display Gobind Sadan Institute article. So does that mean doing 'havans' and worshipping 'krishna' and 'jesus' is puratan reet of Sikhs. Also Gobind Sadan is very clear on the issue that in DG 'Krishna' 'Shiva' etc. are not Metaphors but real figures. And what is the role of Namdharis in this seminar "Harvinder Singh Hanspal, Chairman, Namdhari Darbar" http://www.sridasamgranth.com/#/gobindsada...ar07/4527738063.

"Dr. Surjit Kaur Jolly, Principal SPM College, Delhi University, spoke on Krishan Avtar emphasizing that Guru Gobind Singh ji praised Krishan Maharaj ji's qualities as a great warrior and his kindness towards the people, showing that he was so much more than just the simple romantic as the world often portrays him. Through Krishan Avtar, Guru Gobind Singh ji teaches the kings the qualities of good rulership and instructs us in the qualities necessary to be a good human beings in the world today."

"Gobind Sadan has always taken strong action against those who breaks the rules of Sikh Maryada. We have and will continue to take all steps possible to inform and educate the sangat," Babaji added.

So, singh sahib i think it is time that we Sikhs bring back our lost and original rahit maryada back. i would advise by installing back the removed idols of ram and sita in darbar sahib and reviving age old practise of doing havans.

On a departing note, i would like to know the future of khalsa panth as stated in website. "The compositions of the Granth written between 1695 and 1704 sets out the ideas, thoughts and future achievements of the Nanak panth as enshrined in the Khalsa."

Apne

Give me a quote from Dasam Granth where these Hindu deities are venerated.You are lying 100 percent here.Dasam Bani is more strong in condemning these deities.

Read

ਦਸਮ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਅਵਤਾਰਵਾਦ ਦਾ ਖੰਡਨ

ਕਿਤੇ ਕਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਉਪਾਏ, ਉਸਾਰੇ ਗੜੇ ਫਿਰ ਮੇਟੇ ਬਨਾਏ॥

He hath Created millions of Krishnas like worms. He Created them, annihilated them, again destroyed them, still again Created them.

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ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

Somewhere He hath created millions of servants like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama. (pg.98)

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ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਉਬਾਰ ਨ ਸਕਹੈ ਜਾਕਰ ਨਾਮ ਰਟੈ ਹੈ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਸੂਰਹ ਸਸਿ ਤੇ ਬਸਿ ਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਹੈ ॥੧ (ਸ. ਹਜਾਰੇ)

Ram and Rahim whose names you are uttering cant save you. Brahma, Vishnu Shiva, Sun and Moon, all are subject to the power of Death.1. .(pg.1349)

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ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਦ ਕਹੈਂ ਹਮ ਏਕਨ ਜਾਨਯੋ॥ ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਨਯੋ ॥ (ਰਾਮਾਵਤਾਰ)

O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept these

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ਜਾਕਰ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਨਹਿ ਜਨਿਯਤ ਸੋ ਕਿਮ ਸਯਾਮ ਕਹੈ ਹੈ॥ (ਸਬਦ ਹਜ਼ਾਰੇ ਪਾ.10)

He, whose form and colour are not, how can he be called Shyaam (black)? .(p1349)

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ਕਾਹੂ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਾਂ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ॥...ਅੰਤ ਮਰੇ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਪਰ, ਜੇ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਏ॥(33 ਸਵੈਯੇ)

Someone calls Him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only One Creator.12. (p.1352)

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ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਭਇਓ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਗਹਿ ਦੰਡ ਕਮੰਡਲ ਭੂਮ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਸਦਾ ਸ਼ਿਵਜੂ ਸਭ ਦੇਸ ਬਿਦੇਸ ਭਇਆ ਹਮ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥

Brahma came into being under the control of time and taking his staff and pot his hand, he wandered on the earth; Shiva was also under the control of time and wandered in various countries far and near;

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ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਔ ਬਿਸਨ ਜਪੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਭਲੀ ਬਿਧਿ ਧਿਆਯੋ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜਪਿਓ ਅਰੁ ਸੰਭੁ ਥਪਿਓ ਤਿਹ ਤੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਬਚਾਯੋ ॥……..ਤੋਹਿ ਬਚਾਇ ਸਕੈ ਕਹੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਕੈ ਆਪਨ ਘਾਵ ਬਚਾਇ ਨ ਐਹੈ ॥ਕੋਪ ਕਰਾਲ ਕੀ ਪਾਵਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੈ ਆਪ ਟੰਗਿਓ ਤਿਮ ਤੋਹਿ ਟੰਗੈਹੈ ॥

Thou hast meditated on millions of Krishnas, Vishnus, Ramas and Rahims. Thou hast recited the name of Brahma and established Shivalingam, even then none could save thee…….They cannot save themselves form the blow of death, how can they protect thee? They are all hanging in the blazing fire of anger, therefore they will cause thy hanging similarly. (pg111)

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ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿ.ਵਤਾਰ)

I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Lord.434.

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ਖੋਜ ਰਹੇ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਸੇ ਜਿਹ ਅੰਤ ਅਨੰਤ ਕਹਿਓ ਥਕ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਸੁਨੋ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਇਹੈ ਠਹਰਾਯੋ ॥੨੪੦੩॥

He, whom Shiva etc. had been searching, but could not know His Mystery; O Shukdev ! relate to me the story of that Lord.2403.

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ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥

If you consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take birth from the womb of Kaushalya? He, who is said to be the destroyer of death, then why did he become subjugated himself before death?

ਸੱਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਬੈਰ ਕਹਾਇ ਸੁ ਕਯੋਂ ਪਥ ਕੌ ਰਥ ਹਾਂਕ ਧਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕੋਊ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਲੇਨ ਲਯੋ ਜੂ ॥੧੩॥

If he (Krishna) is called the Truth-incarnate, beyond enmity and opposition, then why did he become the charioteer of Arjuna? O mind! you only consider him the Lord God, whose Mysetry could not be known to anyone.13.

ਕਯੋਂ ਕਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਹੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜ ਤੇ ਬੱਧਕ ਬਾਣ ਲਗਾਯੋ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਉਧਾਰਤ ਜੋ ਕਿਹ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੋ ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਯੋ ॥

Krishna himself is considered the treasure of Grace, then why did the hunter shot his arrow at him? He has been described as redeeming the clans of others then he caused the destruction of his own clan;

ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥

If he (Krishna) is said to be unborn and without a beginning, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki? He, who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father? 14.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥

Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥

Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way

ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥

Someone calls Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only by remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥

O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death. Therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who was in the past, is there in the present and will also be there in the future.16.

ਕੋਟਕ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਪਿੰਦ੍ਰ ਬਾਨਇ ਖਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਦਾਨਵ ਦੇਵ ਫਨਿੰਦ੍ਰ ਧਰਾਧਰ ਪੱਛ ਪਸੂ ਨਹਿ ਜਾਤਿ ਗਨਾਯੋ ॥

He, who created millions of Indras and Upendras and then destroyed them; He, who created innumerable gods, demons, Sheshnaga, tortoises, birds, animals etc.,

ਆਜ ਲਗੇ ਤਪੁ ਸਾਧਤ ਹੈ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਊ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਰ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਲਖਯੋ ਜਿਹ ਸੋਊ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਬਤਾਯੋ ॥੧੭॥

And for knowing whose Mystery, Shiva and Brahma are performing austerities even till today, but could not know His end; He is such a Guru, whose Mystery could not be comprehended also by Vedas and Katebs and my Guru has told me the same thing.17.

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ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਲਹਯੋ ਤਿਹਿ ਸਿੱਧ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਿ ਹਾਰੇ ॥ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸ਼ਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥

The Vedas and Ketebs could not comprehend His Mystery and the adepts have been defeated in practicing contemplation; Different kinds of thoughts have been mentioned about God in Vedas, Shastras, Puranas and smrities; (p1351)

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ਸੋ ਕਿਮ ਮਾਨਸ ਰੂਪ ਕਹਾਏ॥ ਸਿਧ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਸਾਧ ਕਰ ਹਾਰੇ ਕਯੋ੍‍ ਨ ਦੇਖਨ ਪਾਏ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ (ਸ. ਹਜ਼ਾਰੇ)

How can He be said to come in human form? The Siddha (adept) in deep meditation became tired of the discipline on not seeing Him in any way…..Pause. (p.1348)

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ਸ਼ੇਸ਼ ਸੁਰੇਸ਼ ਗਣੇਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸੁਰ ਗਾਹਿ ਫਿਰੈ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਥਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥

ਰੇ ਮਨ ਮੂੜ ਅਗੂੜ ਇਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜਿ ਕਹੋ ਬਿਸਰਾਯੋ ॥ 4॥ 1350 33 ਸਵੈਯੇ

Sheshnaga, Indra, Gandesha, Shiva and also the Shrutis (Vedas) could not know Thy Mystery; O my foolish mind! why have you forgotten such a Lord. 4.

[apne]

Inder Singh Sun Singh brother, i never said that 'krishna' 'shiva' are venerated in DG. Also brother this is the first time i am hearing that 'jesus' gives darshan to sikhs with higher avastha. Maybe we should start celebrating christmas in Akal Takht on the lines of late Virsa Singh.

please don't compare late virsa singh with saints like bhagat puran singh ji. Bhagat ji did not go around travelling in 75 lac lexus SUV with z+ security. He worked for lepers and handicapped and did not hold discourses with politicians and bussinessmen.

[Inder Singh]

Inder Singh Sun Singh brother, i never said that 'krishna' 'shiva' are venerated in DG. Also brother this is the first time i am hearing that 'jesus' gives darshan to sikhs with higher avastha. Maybe we should start celebrating christmas in Akal Takht on the lines of late Virsa Singh.

please don't compare late virsa singh with saints like bhagat puran singh ji. Bhagat ji did not go around travelling in 75 lac lexus SUV with z+ security. He worked for lepers and handicapped and did not hold discourses with politicians and bussinessmen.

Apne

Please do not twist the topic now.Your question if there was any source of Dasam Granth parkash in 18th century literature apart from malcom.That has been answered when i referred the article from www.sridasamgranth.com.

Instaed of focussing on that you have picked up another irrelevant topic.I kinow the administrator of the site personally.He is not a chela of Virsa singh.He is born and educated in UK with Master's degree in Dasam Granth.Let us leave these shoshas behind us.We are talking seriously here.

[apne]

I talked about what the head of that organisation (gobind sadan) does and you think i am twisting the topic. I was pointing that you cannot accept one view of a person and discard another of his.

I only asked a question in first place. <_<

[SunSingh]

I was pointing that you cannot accept one view of a person and discard another of his.

:lol:

This is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Even if you believe 100% of the things one person says, and disbelieve 100% of the things another says, odds are for most people at least some of their opinions will agree. It is an inherently contradictory -an impossible to be true statement. Rather than attacking the argument and the article/reference put forward, you attack the person. Bad people can do good things, say true things with right intention, the world is not that black and white.

This is a classic example of cheap argument tactics.