Name Your Pinds

[Guest KopSingh]

@West London Singh - nice posts here by u paaji n the californian too, very informative.

by the way, cud u explain to me why was the doaba area targeted specifically by the british for emigration to work in the uk mills and factories? coz like its already bin mentioned on this post b4, uk is very very very top heavy when it comes to doaba representation. ive only ever met one group of ppl frm malwa in england, thats my mates n their family, they r frm batinda. and i noticed there panjabi is sooooooo much better than any one elses. also the way they raise their daughters seems to be very very traditional, but then again they are bhatras, and they always do things slightly diffrnt 2 every1 else.

cheers

[West London Singh]

nice posts here by u paaji n the californian too, very informative.

by the way, cud u explain to me why was the doaba area targeted by the british for emigration to work in the uk mills and factories? coz like its already bin mentioned on this post b4, uk is very very very top heavy when it comes to doaba representation.ive only ever met one group of ppl frm malwa in england, thats my mates n their family, they r frm batinda. and i noticed there panjabi is sooooooo much better than any one elses. also the way they raise their daughters seems to be very very traditional, but then again they are bhatras, and they always do things slightly diffrnt 2 every1 else.

cheers

British didn't target the doabas at all Kop Singh. If anything, the British always preferred the Sikhs from Majha. Its just that the doaba sikhs had always, since day one had a natural adventurous streak in them. In a way, you could say this goes back to the fact that of the 3 groupings, the doaba sikhs are the only ones that don't actually 'belong' to that soil, in the sense that they are clans that moved down there from their actual lands in majha and malwa many many centuries ago. Indeed, if you look at the old accounts of Punjab you'll find that much of what we know as doaba today was at that time uninhabited jungles and forests. A few years ago, the state bank of south australia opened up its records to see who the first person was to open a bank account with them in the late 1800's. It actually turned out to be a Sikh from doaba. Also, if you look at the website of the Sikh pioneers of California from the late 1800's you'll see that virtually all the Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims on the list are from villages in doaba. So....for over a century now its been the done thing for the doaba sikhs to pack their bags and go foreign. They've had a hundred year head start on the malwais and majhails. Its a case of 'build it and they will come'. Or more aptly, 'do it and more will follow'. Thus, what the malwais needed was for a few to start doing it and then more would follow. In the 70's and 80's a few malwais starting going to Canada. That few, opened the doors for others. The few then became a trickle. before you knew it, the malwais had also caught the 'foreign' bug and the malwai immigration to Canada became an exodus. Basically, there's no real difference these days in who goes foreign. Its just that the malwais and majhails are playing catch-up.

[Guest KopSingh]

British didn't target the doabas at all Kop Singh. If anything, the British always preferred the Sikhs from Majha. Its just that the doaba sikhs had always, since day one had a natural adventurous streak in them. In a way, you could say this goes back to the fact that of the 3 groupings, the doaba sikhs are the only ones that don't actually 'belong' to that soil, in the sense that they are clans that moved down there from their actual lands in majha and malwa many many centuries ago. Indeed, if you look at the old accounts of Punjab you'll find that much of what we know as doaba today was at that time uninhabited jungles and forests. A few years ago, the state bank of south australia opened up its records to see who the first person was to open a bank account with them in the late 1800's. It actually turned out to be a Sikh from doaba. Also, if you look at the website of the Sikh pioneers of California from the late 1800's you'll see that virtually all the Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims on the list are from villages in doaba. So....for over a century now its been the done thing for the doaba sikhs to pack their bags and go foreign. They've had a hundred year head start on the malwais and majhails. Its a case of 'build it and they will come'. Or more aptly, 'do it and more will follow'. Thus, what the malwais needed was for a few to start doing it and then more would follow. In the 70's and 80's a few malwais starting going to Canada. That few, opened the doors for others. The few then became a trickle. before you knew it, the malwais had also caught the 'foreign' bug and the malwai immigration to Canada became an exodus. Basically, there's no real difference these days in who goes foreign. Its just that the malwais and majhails are playing catch-up.

wow thats interesting stuff there, yea i also thought that amritsaris n other fellow majha residents were the preference for the british.

Also mate, since u or californiansardar mentioned earlier that malwais seem to be more culturally panjabi, i think u r right here. have u noticed ALL the best panjabi singers come from malwa region, it seems to be the hub of folk songs/singers!

also if im not mistaken, but wasnt malwa region of panjab not a part of maharaja ranjit singhs empire? coz i believe that area was a princely state, i may be wrong on that, correct me if im wrong please guys. cheers. also cud some1 tell me when was doaba added to panjab, coz i read somewhere that doaba isnt naturally part of panjab, west london singh, u mentioned above that it was mostly jungle etc. was it added when ranjit singh invaded towards kangra?

i as a doaba walla feel kinda jealous n inferior that most of the panjabi spoken by us is crap n not on a par with amritsaris/lahoris and malwais etc.

cheers

[californiasardar1]

@West London Singh - nice posts here by u paaji n the californian too, very informative.

by the way, cud u explain to me why was the doaba area targeted specifically by the british for emigration to work in the uk mills and factories? coz like its already bin mentioned on this post b4, uk is very very very top heavy when it comes to doaba representation. ive only ever met one group of ppl frm malwa in england, thats my mates n their family, they r frm batinda. and i noticed there panjabi is sooooooo much better than any one elses. also the way they raise their daughters seems to be very very traditional, but then again they are bhatras, and they always do things slightly diffrnt 2 every1 else.

cheers

As I said before, it depends on who you ask when it comes to explaining why Sikhs from Doaba were the first to leave India (and the reason they went to the UK was it was easier to go to than Canada and America due to immigration policy at that time).

People from Malwa claim that Doabans had, on average, smaller landholdings so they had to look outside India earlier for better economic opportunities.

People from Doaba will say that they were more adventurous or educated or financially stable, so they had the resources and inclination to look to move outside India earlier than Sikhs from other areas.

[californiasardar1]

wow thats interesting stuff there, yea i also thought that amritsaris n other fellow majha residents were the preference for the british.

Also mate, since u or californiansardar mentioned earlier that malwais seem to be more culturally panjabi, i think u r right here. have u noticed ALL the best panjabi singers come from malwa region, it seems to be the hub of folk songs/singers!

also if im not mistaken, but wasnt malwa region of panjab not a part of maharaja ranjit singhs empire? coz i believe that area was a princely state, i may be wrong on that, correct me if im wrong please guys. cheers. also cud some1 tell me when was doaba added to panjab, coz i read somewhere that doaba isnt naturally part of panjab, west london singh, u mentioned above that it was mostly jungle etc. was it added when ranjit singh invaded towards kangra?

i as a doaba walla feel kinda jealous n inferior that most of the panjabi spoken by us is crap n not on a par with amritsaris/lahoris and malwais etc.

cheers

I never heard of Doaba not being part of Punjab (you know, since Punjab means "five rivers" and Doaba is situated directly between two of them!)

You are right that Malwa was not under Ranjit Singh's rule. Before Ranjit Singh, most of Punjab was controlled by various independent Sikh misls. Ranjit Singh conquered/united all of the misls north of the Sutlej River (Malwa is the region of Punjab south of the Sutlej). Ranjit Singh temporarily occupied much of Malwa (including Ludhiana), but various Sikh rulers in Malwa sought protection from the British in order to maintain some nominal control, and the British also wanted to keep Ranjit Singh from getting too powerful. Ranjit Singh did not have the resources to go to war with the British, so he had to relinquish the territory he had conquered in Malwa and signed a treaty with the British where he agreed to stay north of the Sutlej and the British agreed not to interfere with Ranjit Singh's campaigns to gain more territory in that region. Most of Malwa then became princely states which were indirectly ruled by the British (the rulers still had nominal control over internal affairs), while some parts of Malwa came under direct British rule.

I've always felt sad, as someone having roots in Malwa, to know that my ancestors were under British rule while a powerful Sikh kingdom existed a few miles away.

[West London Singh]

wow thats interesting stuff there, yea i also thought that amritsaris n other fellow majha residents were the preference for the british.

Also mate, since u or californiansardar mentioned earlier that malwais seem to be more culturally panjabi, i think u r right here. have u noticed ALL the best panjabi singers come from malwa region, it seems to be the hub of folk songs/singers!

also if im not mistaken, but wasnt malwa region of panjab not a part of maharaja ranjit singhs empire? coz i believe that area was a princely state, i may be wrong on that, correct me if im wrong please guys. cheers. also cud some1 tell me when was doaba added to panjab, coz i read somewhere that doaba isnt naturally part of panjab, west london singh, u mentioned above that it was mostly jungle etc. was it added when ranjit singh invaded towards kangra?

i as a doaba walla feel kinda jealous n inferior that most of the panjabi spoken by us is crap n not on a par with amritsaris/lahoris and malwais etc.

cheers

Oooooh Kop Singh, you shouldn't feel an inferiorityu complex about speaking a doaba dialect. You should feel proud. It has, by default, become THE lingua franca of the Sikh diaspora. When you go to Paris and and the massive Sikh community just east of the gare du norde just see how far you get when you don't speak in doaba....coz everyone else does. The peach orchards of California, Vancouver etc...Doaba is the main dialect. Around me here, in London, I have so many friends from malwai but each and every one of them no longer says 'kimmeh' as a greeting. They all now say 'kiddah'. And then you've got Pakistan. as doaba had a muslim majority pre-partition whole districts in pakistan (namely faisalabad and sahniwal) are now doaba dialect speaking, and the country loves it so much they use it exclusively for mass entertainment plays and shows etc. Its rough, its tough, its real. I love it.

As for your other question. Doaba has always been part of Punjab of course, but back in the days before the Sikh misls it was very much muslim dominated and was seen as the natural home of the what were called the Jalandhar Pathans. The reason we have doaba sikhs today is because Sikh misls would ride down from majha on horseback and fight running battles with the jalandhar pathans over territory. We won the battle each time...and each time settled in those areas. After a time, the moghul emporers gave individual tracts of lands to the sikhs that came down from majha as jagirs, in exchange for peace. The most famous of the jagir tracts came to be known as the manjki tract which had as its epicentre the Johal and Dhaliwal kazba of jandiala. This tracts went from the edge of Jalandhar up to Phillaur. Interestingly, historical records show that of the original california sikhs and the Sikhs in England, the vast majority of us are actually from that tiny manjki tract of villages in jalandhar district.

But yeah, early Sikhi wise, doaba was very much historically a muslim area. If you look back at the accounts of when Guru Arjan Dev ji came to doaba in order to get married, the accounts are all about how well he was recieved by the muslims. So like I said, as us Sikhs were fairly new to the doaba soil anyway we've enever really had the attachment to it that the malwais and majhails have had to theirs, and as such have been more prone to move abroad.

[SikhWorldTv]

Phagwara Jalandhar Punjab

[californiasardar1]

Oooooh Kop Singh, you shouldn't feel an inferiorityu complex about speaking a doaba dialect. You should feel proud. It has, by default, become THE lingua franca of the Sikh diaspora. When you go to Paris and and the massive Sikh community just east of the gare du norde just see how far you get when you don't speak in doaba....coz everyone else does. The peach orchards of California, Vancouver etc...Doaba is the main dialect. Around me here, in London, I have so many friends from malwai but each and every one of them no longer says 'kimmeh' as a greeting. They all now say 'kiddah'. And then you've got Pakistan. as doaba had a muslim majority pre-partition whole districts in pakistan (namely faisalabad and sahniwal) are now doaba dialect speaking, and the country loves it so much they use it exclusively for mass entertainment plays and shows etc. Its rough, its tough, its real. I love it.

As for your other question. Doaba has always been part of Punjab of course, but back in the days before the Sikh misls it was very much muslim dominated and was seen as the natural home of the what were called the Jalandhar Pathans. The reason we have doaba sikhs today is because Sikh misls would ride down from majha on horseback and fight running battles with the jalandhar pathans over territory. We won the battle each time...and each time settled in those areas. After a time, the moghul emporers gave individual tracts of lands to the sikhs that came down from majha as jagirs, in exchange for peace. The most famous of the jagir tracts came to be known as the manjki tract which had as its epicentre the Johal and Dhaliwal kazba of jandiala. This tracts went from the edge of Jalandhar up to Phillaur. Interestingly, historical records show that of the original california sikhs and the Sikhs in England, the vast majority of us are actually from that tiny manjki tract of villages in jalandhar district.

But yeah, early Sikhi wise, doaba was very much historically a muslim area. If you look back at the accounts of when Guru Arjan Dev ji came to doaba in order to get married, the accounts are all about how well he was recieved by the muslims. So like I said, as us Sikhs were fairly new to the doaba soil anyway we've enever really had the attachment to it that the malwais and majhails have had to theirs, and as such have been more prone to move abroad.

This brings up another interesting point:

Considering how much of Doaba was Muslim pre-partition, a very large chunk of Sikhs who settled in Doaba after partition must have been from Majha or other areas of central/west Punjab. Do you know a lot of people from Doaba who were originally from what is now Pakistan? Did that have any major impact on the culture and language of Doaba? And, considering the economic hardship as well as the migration that Sikhs who moved east during the partition faced, could that be why so many Sikhs from Doaba (many of whom may have originally been from Pakistan) been so eager to try moving abroad?

[Guest KopSingh]

This brings up another interesting point:

Considering how much of Doaba was Muslim pre-partition, a very large chunk of Sikhs who settled in Doaba after partition must have been from Majha or other areas of central/west Punjab. Do you know a lot of people from Doaba who were originally from what is now Pakistan? Did that have any major impact on the culture and language of Doaba? And, considering the economic hardship as well as the migration that Sikhs who moved east during the partition faced, could that be why so many Sikhs from Doaba (many of whom may have originally been from Pakistan) been so eager to try moving abroad?

well according to my understanding (which is ok, but nufin compared 2 WestLondonSingh) is that most sikhs/hindus leaving west panjab settled in haryana and delhi and bordering areas of malwa. if im wrong please forgive me. thats why there arnt many khatris in panjab, as most khatris live in delhi/haryana.

[Guest KopSingh]

Oooooh Kop Singh, you shouldn't feel an inferiorityu complex about speaking a doaba dialect. You should feel proud. It has, by default, become THE lingua franca of the Sikh diaspora. When you go to Paris and and the massive Sikh community just east of the gare du norde just see how far you get when you don't speak in doaba....coz everyone else does. The peach orchards of California, Vancouver etc...Doaba is the main dialect. Around me here, in London, I have so many friends from malwai but each and every one of them no longer says 'kimmeh' as a greeting. They all now say 'kiddah'. And then you've got Pakistan. as doaba had a muslim majority pre-partition whole districts in pakistan (namely faisalabad and sahniwal) are now doaba dialect speaking, and the country loves it so much they use it exclusively for mass entertainment plays and shows etc. Its rough, its tough, its real. I love it.

As for your other question. Doaba has always been part of Punjab of course, but back in the days before the Sikh misls it was very much muslim dominated and was seen as the natural home of the what were called the Jalandhar Pathans. The reason we have doaba sikhs today is because Sikh misls would ride down from majha on horseback and fight running battles with the jalandhar pathans over territory. We won the battle each time...and each time settled in those areas. After a time, the moghul emporers gave individual tracts of lands to the sikhs that came down from majha as jagirs, in exchange for peace. The most famous of the jagir tracts came to be known as the manjki tract which had as its epicentre the Johal and Dhaliwal kazba of jandiala. This tracts went from the edge of Jalandhar up to Phillaur. Interestingly, historical records show that of the original california sikhs and the Sikhs in England, the vast majority of us are actually from that tiny manjki tract of villages in jalandhar district.

But yeah, early Sikhi wise, doaba was very much historically a muslim area. If you look back at the accounts of when Guru Arjan Dev ji came to doaba in order to get married, the accounts are all about how well he was recieved by the muslims. So like I said, as us Sikhs were fairly new to the doaba soil anyway we've enever really had the attachment to it that the malwais and majhails have had to theirs, and as such have been more prone to move abroad.

Lol yea ive noticed that about faisalabad (lyallpur) ppl, who seem to speak doaba panjabi. u wud expect them 2 speak panjabi closely related 2 rawalpindi type, but its gud they've kept their historical dialect.

check out these faisalabadi's punjabi totay comedy dubbing on youtube, legendary!