Who Is Allowed?

[guptveer1469]

How can you call someone who is born in a Sikh family and cuts his hair a Patit as long as he hasn't been administered Amrit Di Daat?

We should clear this for once and all, it creates unnecessary divisions in the Panth.

Bhul Chuk Maaf,

WJKK WJKF

[valli singh]

Good points Aparadheeji, and Sunny Bond Singhji

though I don't think that the dastaar/dhari appearence was really a prevalent marker in the Panth

before Dasam Pita, one can look at the story of the Ninth Guru's shaheedi and how the Sikh told Guruji that he couldn't tell who was a Sikh and who was not.

Also in my researches I have found that the first five Gurus seem to have worn Seli Topis and thus the dastar would have been unlikely for their followers.

The points I would like to address are the excelent questions Aparadheeji brought up about an Akhand Paath,

Now my position is that in any Khalsa institution i.e Nihang Singh Dals, Sachkhand Hazur Sahib,

Damdami Taksal--ONLY Amritdhari men can perform an Akhand Paath,

I think that that should be unequivocal and fair.

My question to the sangat is what is the maryada in other institutions i.e Nanaksaar, Nirmalay Sampardai, Udasi Sampardai regarding who may perform Akhand Paaths?

[valli singh]

The other great question raised by Aparadheeji

regarded the dufferences between doing kirtan and Akhand Paaths in Maharaj's Darbar;

I see these as being two different things,

historically there was no maryada for kirtan, I have read accounts in Asiatic Research journals which pre-date the Singh Sabha movement and they do record instances or travelling groups of Muslim singers, Sufis, etc performing songs at historical Gurdwaras, this is also true of Guru Gobind Singh's Darbar.

Kirtan is devotional singing, I'd say anyone who has love for God should be able to perform as long as they are an upstanding citizen, religious, respectful and don't have a subversive agenda--regardless of whether they are sehajdhari, non-Sikh etc.

Akhand Paaths are the most sacred practise in our religion,

in Khalsa institutions there are strict restrictions on who can perform them,

in puratan maryada--rehitnamas etc, even a Sikh woman is not permitted to sit on

the throne with Guru Granth Sahib ji, so I don't see why a non-Sikh would be able to,

as I said I am unsure of the practises in Nirmala Sampardai etc,

though I suspect that a Keshdhari/Amritdhari (one who has taken khande pahul or charan pahul)

alone would be allowed, because I have seen this at Johlan, Hoti Mardan, Nanaksaar and Rara Sahib but I don't know about elsewhere.

[guptveer1469]

Good points Aparadheeji, and Sunny Bond Singhji

though I don't think that the dastaar/dhari appearence was really a prevalent marker in the Panth

before Dasam Pita, one can look at the story of the Ninth Guru's shaheedi and how the Sikh told Guruji that he couldn't tell who was a Sikh and who was not.

Also in my researches I have found that the first five Gurus seem to have worn Seli Topis and thus the dastar would have been unlikely for their followers.

The points I would like to address are the excelent questions Aparadheeji brought up about an Akhand Paath,

Now my position is that in any Khalsa institution i.e Nihang Singh Dals, Sachkhand Hazur Sahib,

Damdami Taksal--ONLY Amritdhari men can perform an Akhand Paath,

I think that that should be unequivocal and fair.

My question to the sangat is what is the maryada in other institutions i.e Nanaksaar, Nirmalay Sampardai, Udasi Sampardai regarding who may perform Akhand Paaths?

About the first 5 Pathshahis wearing Seli and Topi... I have heard that so often, but I don't believe it. Or have hard time believing it.

Why? =>

Ang 74, by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in SGGS

ਮੈ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਉਚ ਦੁਮਾਲੜਾ ॥

Mai gur mil ucẖ ḏumālṛā.

I met with the Guru, and I have tied a tall, plumed turban.

Ang 1084, by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in SGGS:

ਨਾਪਾਕ ਪਾਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ਹਦੀਸਾ ਸਾਬਤ ਸੂਰਤਿ ਦਸਤਾਰ ਸਿਰਾ ॥੧੨॥

Nāpāk pāk kar haḏūr haḏīsā sābaṯ sūraṯ ḏasṯār sirā. ||12||

Purify what is impure, and let the Lord's Presence be your religious tradition. Let your total awareness be the turban on your head. ||12||

Ang 1379, by Bhagat Farid Ji in SGGS:

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਮੈ ਭੋਲਾਵਾ ਪਗ ਦਾ ਮਤੁ ਮੈਲੀ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਇ ॥

Farīḏā mai bẖolāvā pag ḏā maṯ mailī ho▫e jā▫e.

Fareed, I was worried that my turban might become dirty.

Hope you can understand my point from these Shabads...

Bhul Chuk Maaf,

WJKK WJKF

[valli singh]

Yes it is a touchy and controversial topic,

my personal belief is that the early Gurus wore a mixture of Seli Topis and different style Dastaars,

this can be evidenced from early paintings, artwork etc.

Guru Hargobind Sahib seems to have been the first to unequivocally

rejected the Seli Topi in favor for a Dastaar,

the Bedi Sampardai originally kept the original form of Guru Nanak until the time of the Tenth Master,

and again, it seems to be a matter of revisionism to reject that Seli Topis were worn by the

first five Gurus from time to time.

After all it was the SGPC who effectively banned and destroyed Sobha Singh's painting

of Sri Guru Nanak Dev wearing a Seli Topi.

[valli singh]

Anyways,

We seem to have gone way off topic,

the 'Seli Topi' question was only brought up to show that early Sikhs

did not have as distinctive a dress as they do today and thus they would not have been

incessantly squabbling over who can sit on the stage and who cannot.

The only 'group' I have seen that absolutely opposses anyone who is not Amritdhari on stage is

the AKJ and more radical elements like the Kala Afghanists etc.

But even then, these are post-Sigh Sabha institutions and not Sampardais with lineages from the Gurus

and so this discrepancy is understandable.

[guptveer1469]

Theek Hai veerji.

I have been thinking about something in my mind for long... Guru Nanak Sahib Ji visited much of the world, and one of the places that they visited is Baghdad in Iraq. There lives a clan called the Sobi, if I'm not mistaken, that are Sikhs since the time of Guru Ji due to their parchaar. The Sobi's remember Guru Ji and don't cut their beard and hair, they claim that their prophet abstained them from doing so.

Bhul Chuk Maaf,

WJKK WJKF

[valli singh]

Interesting!

I'd love to know more about them, though I'm sure information would be scarce.

[guptveer1469]

Hanji veerji, information is very scarce !

We need more Sikhs interested in researching Sikh Itihas, rather than eating Sangat's money and building themselves villas and belly's.

Bhul Chuk Maaf,

WJKK WJKF

[valli singh]

LOL,

we do, and there seem to be many in our generation who have risen

above the petty squabbles of our elders and the golak-gorging of many so-called 'parbandaks'