The Fall Of Elam

[awoken_soul]

as for american history, all i can say is that the americans wanted one main thing: less tax (some things never change lol). this is what they all fought for. also they had men like washington who were great visionaries and created institutions that would rival all of those in europe.

I am a American Sikh and a undergrad student. If you think George Washington was a visionary then you have a lot of reading to do my brother....but he sure was a military genius but nothing close to a political or social vissionary. During the revolution his military under his command destroyed towns of the Iroquois Indians which held women and children. If George was a visionary he would've not had slaves or would never buy more land around the United States and would not need to have 3 houses. After the revolution, he just didnt give a rats <banned word filter activated> about anyone because he was a hero all around and needed no worry.

So people before you try to be a military genius or be a military personality, try to be a visionary, a philospher or atleast open minded so you can call yourself a true revolutionary. A Philoshper cannot be a revolutionary, but a Revolutionary has to be a philospher.

stop pushing your kids to do dentistry/accounting/pharmacy just because that will mean they can buy you a mercedes when you retire. let the children do what they are good at.

Please don't follow this advise and always guide your kids to be Doctors/Lawyers/Engineers. Young kids can be attached to anything from porn to leadership skills, but that shouldn't give a child the right to go for a porn career. Its up to the parents who have more life experience to decide and let their children know the positive and a important path according to the society we live inside. Children need to know whats important and what will help the Sikh community. We need more political Analyst for a political change and we need more Philosophers for a social change. Democracy is not the way for Khalistan at all.

another point is that the americans had massive amounts of help from the french and to a lesser extent the spanish and dutch.

The only reason the French helped the Americans because of the French apposition to the british because of canadian territory issues and there was no massive french help to the American. The American Revolution was mostly run by Americans and fought by Americans.

[awoken_soul]

This is why you will fail. Lets suppose we have a good khalistani militant group and they have great skills for being a guerrilla group, but after the revolution what kind of government will we have?what kind of society we will have?how would the political and social infrastructure work?Who would rule?who will make the rules?if we have a democracy would it be fair for the minorities? We need to think about this before we go on about being a military person. Anyone can shoot a gun when there are bombs dropping from the sky, but how many can actually think of a decent and a fair political and social structure for everyone residing inside a country?

you contradict yourself mate. of course i'm not saying we do it forever. sometimes the end justifies the means. learning to fire guns, fight, organise military forces, is not something you are born with. you have to learn it. i thought i was pretty good at military stuff until i was thrown in a room with other people my age and other races and tested. i was above average, but nowhere near a military genius. but with the right training and my own hard work thats changed.

you mention a hundred years ago, but most of the goreh alive then are dead now. and if you are an officer, you will be the one who gets saluted. i could say the same about all those sikhs in the hindustani armed forces. we want to create a state safe from evil and corruption. if our generation has to do somethings that arent appealing and avoids them then we wont get anywhere. like you said 'if only sikhs could train sikhs'. well learn what others need to know and teach them.

[HSD*^]

I am a American Sikh and a undergrad student. If you think George Washington was a visionary then you have a lot of reading to do my brother....but he sure was a military genius but nothing close to a political or social vissionary. During the revolution his military under his command destroyed towns of the Iroquois Indians which held women and children. If George was a visionary he would've not had slaves or would never buy more land around the United States and would not need to have 3 houses. After the revolution, he just didnt give a rats <banned word filter activated> about anyone because he was a hero all around and needed no worry.

So people before you try to be a military genius or be a military personality, try to be a visionary, a philospher or atleast open minded so you can call yourself a true revolutionary. A Philoshper cannot be a revolutionary, but a Revolutionary has to be a philospher.

there are two sides to every story. sirhind, anyone?

also, who had the idea to create westpoint? the academy that has provided the united states army with capable officers, engineers and graduates for over two centuries? did any of the sikhs of the khalsa raj do anything similar?

as for saying he had no worry, i think your wrong as he had to be president and stop others from derailing what they fought for.

also, he was the first to propose the idea of not getting involved in wars between european states, as staying out would allow the USA to grow stronger at their expense (a theory that resulted in the USA becoming the power it is today). and before you mention WW1 or WW2, take note that the US economy grew ridiculously before they got involved in either. even truman said WW2 would be better if the nazis and soviets could fight each other and the americans would sell weapons to both sides for profit. washington proposed the idea of spreading west instead. so who got all those resources - the brits?french?spanish?russians? no. the yanks did. all because this guy pushed them in that direction. and looking at the strength of america now, compared to our inability to do anything anywhere, i think history speaks for it. unless you close your ears that is.

Please don't follow this advise and always guide your kids to be Doctors/Lawyers/Engineers. Young kids can be attached to anything from porn to leadership skills, but that shouldn't give a child the right to go for a porn career. Its up to the parents who have more life experience to decide and let their children know the positive and a important path according to the society we live inside. Children need to know whats important and what will help the Sikh community. We need more political Analyst for a political change and we need more Philosophers for a social change. Democracy is not the way for Khalistan at all.

on one hand you say always be doctors/lawyers/engineers and then you say be philosophers/political analysts. maybe your a bit dumb so i'll tell you now: you misunderstood my post. whats wrong with allowing your kids to follow their talents and be the best in their field? rather than forcing them into careers that they dont want to do or wont be good at. and you porn star analogy is dumb- do they have porn classes were you're from?

The only reason the French helped the Americans because of the French apposition to the british because of canadian territory issues and there was no massive french help to the American. The American Revolution was mostly run by Americans and fought by Americans.

oh dear. that is complete bull. the french fought the naval battles for you, supplied equipment and officers. the major victory at Yorktown would not have been possible without them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Yorktown

the main reason the french fought is because it gave them an ally and removed the first jewel in the british crown.

This is why you will fail. Lets suppose we have a good khalistani militant group and they have great skills for being a guerrilla group, but after the revolution what kind of government will we have?what kind of society we will have?how would the political and social infrastructure work?Who would rule?who will make the rules?if we have a democracy would it be fair for the minorities? We need to think about this before we go on about being a military person. Anyone can shoot a gun when there are bombs dropping from the sky, but how many can actually think of a decent and a fair political and social structure for everyone residing inside a country?

you sir are a muppet. did you even read my other posts in this thread?

[awoken_soul]

there are two sides to every story. sirhind, anyone?

So what is your point? Is it right for people to destroy homes and lives because of someone else's mistakes?

also, who had the idea to create westpoint? the academy that has provided the united states army with capable officers, engineers and graduates for over two centuries? did any of the sikhs of the khalsa raj do anything similar?

Sure George Washington thought West point was strategic and significant to the "American Revolution" and to the colonies back then, but even a retired private first class could tell the American people to establish a Military academy and then die. Col. Thayer was the key person for the academy, not george washington. Why do you think BABA DEEP SINGH became the jathedar of DAMDAMI TAKSAL? just cuz he thought it would be cool to establish a school for the sikh nation?

as for saying he had no worry, i think your wrong as he had to be president and stop others from derailing what they fought for. also, he was the first to propose the idea of not getting involved in wars between european states, as staying out would allow the USA to grow stronger at their expense (a theory that resulted in the USA becoming the power it is today).

He supported the federalist after he claimed to be a neutral leader. He didnt even have a college degree to be a decent leader politically, not to mention strategically. He became the president because he was a hero in the revolutionary war, who fought 9 battles and lost 6 of them. Again he was a still a good military leader because he fought for the right cause, but he had very less knowledge on strategic part of it. I still respect him for the reason he refused to be the king. American Revolution could've been won even if George Washington didnt exist.

and before you mention WW1 or WW2, take note that the US economy grew ridiculously before they got involved in either. even truman said WW2 would be better if the nazis and soviets could fight each other and the americans would sell weapons to both sides for profit.

WOW...haha..so what is your point? even a shopkeeper could come up with that, when it comes to saving the economy? which <banned word filter activated> wouldnt sell food to the two sides who are fighting each other and you are supplying them for profit?....I dont think we need president washington to point that out buddy.

on one hand you say always be doctors/lawyers/engineers and then you say be philosophers/political analysts. maybe your a bit dumb so i'll tell you now: you misunderstood my post. whats wrong with allowing your kids to follow their talents and be the best in their field? rather than forcing them into careers that they dont want to do or wont be good at. and you porn star analogy is dumb- do they have porn classes were you're from?

You want to make personal attacks?or you want a productive post?....Don't you think a political analyst is as important as a lawyer/doctor or a engineer? if you dont then you are dumb. look mate you are talking about kids, and kids are irresponsible and not in touch with the society compare to their elders. Why do people switch majors at universities?because the lack of guidence by the parents or other adult figures in their life.

oh dear. that is complete bull. the french fought the naval battles for you, supplied equipment and officers. the major victory at Yorktown would not have been possible without them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Yorktown

the main reason the french fought is because it gave them an ally and removed the first jewel in the british crown.

yeh the french and the americans fought together and the french deserve the credit for bringing their ships, but leaders like benjamin franklin knew what was the king of france up to, so franklin decided to have his own secret peace treaty with the british withought giving the french a invitation, so which resulted in a alliance break up. The french were helping the americans so they could defeat the british and gain their lost territories back from the english. the french had no desire to help the american people, well atleast the king didnt care. Thats why we helped the french people with their revolution against their own king who helped the americans in the revolution for independence.

[TruSoul]

Ahhh an american. Just a quick question bit of a off topic. Iv just recently come back from the states. I notices around the Ny state the normal american Flag and two others one looked very similar to the dutch flag the other was a crest of some sort. Can you shed some light on what these flags are for ?... They always poled as a three with the normal american flag.

[awoken_soul]

Ahhh an american. Just a quick question bit of a off topic. Iv just recently come back from the states. I notices around the Ny state the normal american Flag and two others one looked very similar to the dutch flag the other was a crest of some sort. Can you shed some light on what these flags are for ?... They always poled as a three with the normal american flag.

Well mate I lived in new york city for about 5 years when I was a junior high student but now I am attending Berkley. I believe New york city has flags for each borough like Manhattan has its own flag then Brooklyn and three other boroughs. Maybe thats what you are referring to? We used to have that at our school flag poles so yeh those are borough flags, with a state flag and a American flag.

[HSD*^]

So what is your point? Is it right for people to destroy homes and lives because of someone else's mistakes?

if you dont get it there is no need to get your knickers in a twist. :rolleyes:

Sure George Washington thought West point was strategic and significant to the "American Revolution" and to the colonies back then, but even a retired private first class could tell the American people to establish a Military academy and then die. Col. Thayer was the key person for the academy, not george washington. Why do you think BABA DEEP SINGH became the jathedar of DAMDAMI TAKSAL? just cuz he thought it would be cool to establish a school for the sikh nation?

it was washington who came up with the idea of an academy, where as many of his contemporaries feared it would be too undemocratic and didnt like the idea. so no, not even a 'retired private first class' would say that, as they would have no idea what westpoint would be. and you cant compare damdani taksal to westpoint as one is a religous establishment set up for different purposes than westpoint.

He supported the federalist after he claimed to be a neutral leader. He didnt even have a college degree to be a decent leader politically, not to mention strategically. He became the president because he was a hero in the revolutionary war, who fought 9 battles and lost 6 of them. Again he was a still a good military leader because he fought for the right cause, but he had very less knowledge on strategic part of it. I still respect him for the reason he refused to be the king. American Revolution could've been won even if George Washington didnt exist.

do you know g.washington also had wooden/ivory teeth? when i mentioned him earlier did you also think i wanted people who read it to knock their own teeth out and replace them with wood/ivory?

when i mentioned cromwell do you think i meant we should all run up and down ireland killing locals?

when i said bismark did i mean we should plot to isolate and destroy france?

when i said mandela do i mean importing and selling weapons to people who use child soldiers?

hell no. but everytime i start a thread, there is always some numbnut who comes along and wants a public argument for no real reason. if you didnt understand a point, or why i said something, cant you just ask why i said that. did it ever occur to your gigantic intelligence that i might have a reason for saying so?! of course not. no you just want a long drawn out pointless argument.

WOW...haha..so what is your point? even a shopkeeper could come up with that, when it comes to saving the economy? which <banned word filter activated> wouldnt sell food to the two sides who are fighting each other and you are supplying them for profit?....I dont think we need president washington to point that out buddy.

oh the irony. do you know anything about sikh history (supposing you are even sikh)? if you do, then you know we have a habit of fighting for other people in their wars. and this is even if they have their own armies and the casus belli does not involve us. actually you did need washington. many american politicians wanted to join the french after their revolution and join in the war in europe. how long would the US last against the combined navies and armies of monarchistic europe? not long. thats why washington made the most out of the war and got concessions off both sides. if anyone who reads this and doesnt understand it, please go and learn some history. oh and it wasnt just food that america sold before the world wars.

You want to make personal attacks?or you want a productive post?....Don't you think a political analyst is as important as a lawyer/doctor or a engineer? if you dont then you are dumb. look mate you are talking about kids, and kids are irresponsible and not in touch with the society compare to their elders. Why do people switch majors at universities?because the lack of guidence by the parents or other adult figures in their life.

i was pointing out how you contradicted yourself. also, are you sure parents are intelligent? i live in britain and the elders in my local gurudwara are the most superstitous, anti-intellectual fundamentalists around. they dont want there sons/daughters to be doctors/accountants/dentists because its good for them or they know more about the world. they want bragging rights over other parents and the chance to enjoy retirement with their children's money. but not every one of their kids are cut out for those professions. there are kids who could have been great mathematicians/scientists/athletes but their parents emotionally blackmailed them into trying to be in a 'respectable' profession. but guess what, they dont make it, and then these kids end up working in the parent's business, and i think what a waste. i was lucky as i changed course in my first year from a vocational degree to a more intelligent and interesting subject. but that was against what my parents wanted. so go figure.

yeh the french and the americans fought together and the french deserve the credit for bringing their ships, but leaders like benjamin franklin knew what was the king of france up to, so franklin decided to have his own secret peace treaty with the british withought giving the french a invitation, so which resulted in a alliance break up. The french were helping the americans so they could defeat the british and gain their lost territories back from the english. the french had no desire to help the american people, well atleast the king didnt care. Thats why we helped the french people with their revolution against their own king who helped the americans in the revolution for independence.

benjamin franklin was a true genius. if we had someone like him we would at least get somewhere in building khalistan. even though the french reasons for helping may not have been honourable (is anyones?) they still did a lot, and the revolution wouldnt have worked without them.

[awoken_soul]

it was washington who came up with the idea of an academy, where as many of his contemporaries feared it would be too undemocratic and didnt like the idea. so no, not even a 'retired private first class' would say that, as they would have no idea what westpoint would be. and you cant compare damdani taksal to westpoint as one is a religous establishment set up for different purposes than westpoint.

Did Washington go through the process of democracy to be the first president?I dont think so...WestPoint is known during and before the revolution as a important high ground by hudson river, so what <banned word filter activated> couldn't come up with the idea of making westpoint an American military station atleast, if not an academy. Washington didnt do anything for westpoint, it was Col Thayer who went to europe and collected alot of information for the institution. Sure Damdami Taksal is a religious institution, but it was no less then a military training camp as well for the singhs back then. You are the one who asked "did any of the sikhs of the khalsa raj do anything similar?" and Taksal is pretty similar or the nagoke camps that were established at the village nagoke in the 70's.

do you know g.washington also had wooden/ivory teeth? when i mentioned him earlier did you also think i wanted people who read it to knock their own teeth out and replace them with wood/ivory?

You bet I know, but that's his physical features that are not important. you said he was a visionary and I completely disagree, but he was a military leader, a enthusiastic person who made farmers in to a fierce militia, other then that he had nothing.

actually you did need washington. many american politicians wanted to join the french after their revolution and join in the war in europe. how long would the US last against the combined navies and armies of monarchistic europe? not long. thats why washington made the most out of the war and got concessions off both sides. if anyone who reads this and doesnt understand it, please go and learn some history. oh and it wasnt just food that america sold before the world wars.

Alexander Hamilton was a better military leader, a political philosopher,and a economist. Washington wasn't needed, but he is already in history so cant take him out, its too late. Yeh I thought food was the only thing that was sold during the war :rolleyes: , you are a genius. thanks for letting me know.

i was pointing out how you contradicted yourself. also, are you sure parents are intelligent? i live in britain and the elders in my local gurudwara are the most superstitous, anti-intellectual fundamentalists around. they dont want there sons/daughters to be doctors/accountants/dentists because its good for them or they know more about the world. they want bragging rights over other parents and the chance to enjoy retirement with their children's money. but not every one of their kids are cut out for those professions. there are kids who could have been great mathematicians/scientists/athletes but their parents emotionally blackmailed them into trying to be in a 'respectable' profession. but guess what, they dont make it, and then these kids end up working in the parent's business, and i think what a waste. i was lucky as i changed course in my first year from a vocational degree to a more intelligent and interesting subject. but that was against what my parents wanted. so go figure.

Its like saying are you sure kids are intelligent? of course there are going to be some nutjob parent who is lost in the society. lol. Good point though, but it can go both ways.

[HSD*^]

Did Washington go through the process of democracy to be the first president?I dont think so...WestPoint is known during and before the revolution as a important high ground by hudson river, so what <banned word filter activated> couldn't come up with the idea of making westpoint an American military station atleast, if not an academy. Washington didnt do anything for westpoint, it was Col Thayer who went to europe and collected alot of information for the institution. Sure Damdami Taksal is a religious institution, but it was no less then a military training camp as well for the singhs back then. You are the one who asked "did any of the sikhs of the khalsa raj do anything similar?" and Taksal is pretty similar or the nagoke camps that were established at the village nagoke in the 70's.

where the gurus chosen by democracy? does it even matter? also washington was not self-appointed. yes, west point was a military garrison during the war. but no one wanted to create a military academy. as i said many were opposed to the idea of military academies as they thought this could lead to the destabilisation of democracy. but were did colonel thayer get the idea from? why did he chose west point? washington had more important things to do than run up and down europe as a mercenary. as for the damdani taksal it was not designed as a military science and engineering school, and does not produce military officers. none of the sikh schools were on the same level as westpoint as they had different intentions. mind you, the khalsa could definitely done with a sandhurst/west point style academy.

You bet I know, but that's his physical features that are not important. you said he was a visionary and I completely disagree, but he was a military leader, a enthusiastic person who made farmers in to a fierce militia, other then that he had nothing.

this is what i said earlier in post #7:

"read about leaders like cromwell, washington, bismark, mandela and then look at our lot. its time to wise up and create good strong leaders of the panth rather than waiting for them to fall out of the sky."

did i call him a visionary? no. your points about washington could be said about churchill too. but history isnt about a table of things people did. its the effect they had and what they did that others didnt. we can sit here and say 'he only did that', but what have we done? will you or i help to build a country that in 250 years will be a global superpower?

Alexander Hamilton was a better military leader, a political philosopher,and a economist. Washington wasn't needed, but he is already in history so cant take him out, its too late. Yeh I thought food was the only thing that was sold during the war rolleyes.gif , you are a genius. thanks for letting me know.

'You should not have taken advantage of my sensibility to steal into my affections without my consent. '

also your sarcasm is ironic :rolleyes: .

Its like saying are you sure kids are intelligent? of course there are going to be some nutjob parent who is lost in the society. lol. Good point though, but it can go both ways.

no the kids are intelligent enough. but a country with no variety in engineers or artists, scientists, writers, mathematicians etc is doomed to failure. sure, we will need doctors/dentists/accountants/lawyers but there are enough sikhs in the west who will go into those professions, we need to take advantage of the centuries of learning and thinking that western institutions(unis, schools, certain organisations) have. our parents just dont get it.

i want to explain what i meant by the institutions a bit more, but i know some people will get the wrong end of the stick and start arguing, and i cant be bothered with that. but the beginning of this book gives an indication of the thinking behind what i said: http://www.amazon.com/Age-American-Unreaso...y/dp/1905847823. we sikhs are similar to the americans in terms of the age of our nation and certain problems we face.

[TruSoul]

bravooo!, its turned in to a good debate!.

Can a squeeze in a question : Who were / are the greatest military minds in the world ?