Hindus Challenging Originality Of Sikhism

[Bijla Singh]

Bundha ji, I am not comparing Guru Sahib with a Buddhist. An example is given to relate it to something not to compare. Like I said, it was Dr. Pannu who said this in his lecture. I am not advocating it. Metaphor is not a lie. Story of the womb makes much more sense because even a Hindu who has read Mahabharta will tell you that Pandu never went to Hemkunt. You can easily provide evidence and refute the article and I will read it with an open mind. If you think everything in Dasam Granth is true in literal sense then give me date of birth and death of every single avtar, devi, demon as well as characters named in chrittars and 24 avtars. Then you must also believe that chrittar of Anandpur is an actual event related to Guru Gobind Singh Ji's life and all other chrittars are true and not fiction stories. War explained in Chandi Di Vaar is also a myth and never happened. Guru Ji's purpose of writing was much different than simply translating and preaching them to be true. Such metaphors exist in Gurbani and Vaars and same stories have been used to explain divine teachings. Doesn't mean such stories are true. My simple point is that different scholars interpret Dasam Granth differently. If one doesn't make sense we should find another one. You may disagree with something that makes sense to me and that is fine. We all have different viewpoint. There is no end to study, research and interpretations as long as we don't refute authenticity of the writings.

[GPS]

Charitra 21,22 and 23 are written in third person narration wherein a Minister recites the stories to his King. The plot of charitras start from charira 1 and it is diffcult to understand charitras if one does not read charitropakhyan in totality. Moreover for a reader not to be misled , Guru sahib is writing at end of each charitra( from charitra 2 onwards) that this is a Minister-king dialogue and is a pakhayan. Pakhyan means a story that existed before and is being retold. Only an ignorant person will commit a blunder by linking any charitra with life of Guru Gobind singh ji.

We are humans and have limited intellect to understand completely bani of our satgurus. That does not mean we should take a hardened stand and doubt writings of our Gurus. Guru Nanak Dev ji's physical remains disappeared when he left this mortal world. Tomorrow some misguided person can make this an issue saying this is not possible. Shall we believe such a person? Not at all. Such reasoning leads to erosion of faith that is fundamental in a religion.

Before we ask birth dates of avtars we should know when it became customary to keep record of historical accounts. Mention of these avtars do come in SGGS also. SGGS mention that Lord appeared

in guise of Nar singh avtar and tore apart Harnakhash before he could kill Prehlad. Shall we disown SGGS also which mentions these characters from beginning to end.The only difference is

that dasam Granth mentions it in narrative form.

ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੈਆਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਨਿਕਸਿਆ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਉਪਾੜਿ

khin meh bhai-aan roop niksi-aa tham^H upaarh.

In an instant, the Lord appeared in a dreadful form, and shattered the pillar.

ਹਰਣਾਖਸੁ ਨਖੀ ਬਿਦਾਰਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦੁ ਲੀਆ ਉਬਾਰਿ harnaakhas nakhee bidaari-aa parahlaad lee-aa ubaar. ||4||

Harnaakhash was torn apart by His claws, and Prahlaad was saved. ||4||

ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੇ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਾਰਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ sant janaa kay har jee-o kaaraj savaaray.

The Dear Lord completes the tasks of the Saints.

SGGS ji

[chatanga]

We can start a separate topic to discuss Vaars which in my opinion is a vast treasure of Gurmat way of life.

Lets do that. Use the one that I used to start with.

My approach of study is not to reject our traditions but to find logics behind them. I study to justify our beliefs. If something doesn't sound right then we must find answers.

Logic? In our Guru's path? Our Guru's path defies logic. How could Guru Nanak show a Pir's son, the universe? Even todays science struggles to get Mars on a mega mega telescope. What about all the other thing Guru's did. How does creation of Khalsa fit in with logic? If you are trying to find logics, you gonna have a long look, my friend. Maybe this is the problem, you trying to apply logic, where it simply won't work?

Dr Pannu says that it used to be a tradition of the religious saints that whenever they wrote their own biography they wrote a fiction story about their past life.

Yet Dasam Pita was the only one to do so. Even it was a tradition, none of the other Guru's chose to continue it, yet the very last Guru decided to?

[GPS]

Bijla singh ji

wrote

because even a Hindu who has read Mahabharta will tell you that Pandu never went to Hemkunt. You can easily provide evidence and refute the article and I will read it with an open mind.

Article of dalip singh posted by you itself says that King Pandu became an acsetic and went to mountains. Name of spat sring is also mentioned in that article. Please read below

http://srec.gurmat.i...ib/hemkunt.html

Pandu then became an ascetic and disciple of the Sidhas, who resided in the forests. The Sidhas and Rishis of the forests then arranged to go on a mountaneous pilgrimage. Pandu wanted to accompany them with his wives but the Rishis said: "On our way are heights and regions of perpetual snow, where neither animals, birds or even trees can live; only the winds and Sidhas are there, so how can your princesses exist there?" As his wives could not copulate with him, Pandu replied, "I have no sons, nor am I in a position to create them. I owe a debt to my ancestors. I wish to know if my wives can have children by another man?" The Rishis gave the assent and foretold the birth of wonderful children for him, from other men. Kunti remembering her Mantra invoked the god of justice. Through him she had a son named Yudhishtra. After some time, Kunti invoked the god of wind and through him had a son named Bhima. Later again she invoked Indira and gave birth to a son named Arjuna.

Madri, the second wife of king Pandu now expressed her desire to bear children. Pandu asked Kunti to help Madri in this respect. Kunti told Madri to think of the gods with whom she wanted to have children and she would arrange it. Madri thought of the twin Aswins. They were invoked by Kunti and they came to Madri. By then she had twin sons, Nakula and Sahadeva. In this way, five sons (Pandu Brothers) were born to king Pandu.

When Pandu actually saw his five handsome sons growing up in the forest of the slopes of the mountain, he felt his sexual power returning. One day, accompanied by Madri, he went out to wander in the woods of the garden of Sapat Sringa. It was spring time, the season that causes unrest in all creatures. Flowers bloomed everywhere filling the woods with their gentle-------------------------

[Bijla Singh]

Chatanga ji, do you mean to say there is no logic to guru’s path? When we disagree on certain viewpoints are we not using logic? Re-read my post carefully. Established traditions have logics and reasoning behind them. I am not trying to find logics behind miracles or Guru’s doings (such is an impossible feat) but established way of life. Gurbani is the logic against which everything else has to be measured. Gurmat is not a blind path.

Perhaps you can explain why other Gurus did not write autobiography. Tradition was not a mandatory requirement for one to write autobiography but according to this particular tradition (if it is true) one wrote an account of past life. Only Dr. Pannu can explain this. If we can understand (not reach the end of) Gurbani and its grammar and some find 10 different meanings of it then why can’t we understand Dasam Granth and find 10 different interpretations? Some took Hemkunt in literal sense while others in metaphorical sense.

Post the pauri you want to discuss. Post the next one only after we are done with the first one. I think I have already explained the purpose of the pauri you posted. Bhai Sahib is explaining other religious beliefs as is confirmed by Bhai Veer Singh Ji. Gurbani does not support age decreasing with yug.

GPS ji, the article is clear that Pandu stayed in the forest and saw his sons growing up in the forest not at Hemkunt. Pandu became disciple of siddhas who stayed in the forests and refused to take him to mountains. Let me pose another question; is Guru Sahib really endorsing the view that a woman can have children by simply invoking some deity without sexual union? Did Guru Sahib believe in this? Simply not which proves that writing myths and believing in myths are two different things. I don’t think there is any need to argue more over this. Guru Rakha

[GPS]

Dalip singh did not invent the article. He has copied it from Hindu texts available on the net.The article does state that King pandu renounced his kingly life and became follower of sidhas. The article does state that King lived in forests and saw his sons growing up in mountains. Sapt sring is mentioned in the article.The article does not state categorically that Pandus did not go with sidhas.

As stated earlier Dasam Granth is a granth of akar and SGGS is a granth of nirakar. Hence it is completely natural that Guru sahib chose to write his autobioagraphy.We have manuscripts written in Guru sahib's period that have identical bachitra natak in them. To have doubt in interpretation of text is one thing but to say why Guru sahib wrote his autobiography is completely a different thing. He is our Guru and who are we to question his judgement. We are just worms. Sikhi is Guru's way all the time.

[GPS]

Bijla singh ji,

Please read below.There is a place in there near badrinath which is named after king Pandu as it is said to be established by him.

http://www.chardhamyatra.carhire-delhi.com/badrinath_dham.html

Pandukeshwar:

This place is believed to have been established by King Pandu, father of Pandavas. It is situated at 4kms from Govind Ghat, 219 kms from Kedarnath and 24 kms from Badrinath. There are two temples - one for Lord Yogabadri Narayan and the other for Lord Vasudev. During winter, Lord Vasudev temple will function as the abode for Lord Badri Narayan and all the daily rituals connected with worship are performed here. Both the temples are quite old.

The temple remains closed from October to April due to severe winter conditions. During this period the idols of Utsavo murti are taken to Pandukeshwar.

Also see

http://www.chardham-pilgrimage-tour.com/sri-badrinath.html

[chatanga]

Chatanga ji, do you mean to say there is no logic to gurus path? When we disagree on certain viewpoints are we not using logic? Re-read my post carefully. Established traditions have logics and reasoning behind them. I am not trying to find logics behind miracles or Gurus doings (such is an impossible feat) but established way of life. Gurbani is the logic against which everything else has to be measured. Gurmat is not a blind path.

If we can understand (not reach the end of) Gurbani and its grammar and some find 10 different meanings of it then why cant we understand Dasam Granth and find 10 different interpretations? Some took Hemkunt in literal sense while others in metaphorical sense.[/size][/font]

Bro, Guru's path is beyond logic, is what I mean. Of course the logic behind Gurmat cannot be denied, but there are some aspects of Guru's path that logic or science for that matter cannot decipher. Does logic even accept the existence of God?

If you say (and i agree with this ) that we can find 10 different meanings of Gurbani, then why deny the scriptures MAY have a physical basis as well as an imaginery one? I dont deny that Dalip Singh's article has no merits but it just doesnt answer all the questions like others do. For me there are too many physical attributes to limit this to the womb/metaphorical sense.

Further to this, Guru Ji says in Bachitar Natak:

"I stood up with folded hands, and said with my head lowered, the Panth will flourish in the world, if it has your support."

Did Guru Ji stand in the womb? Or did he stand at all?

[Bijla Singh]

Conversation between the soul and Waheguru could only take place in Sachkhand. Guru Sahib doesn't say that the conversation took place at Hemkunt. I think much more research needs to be done in this area and Sikhs must find out more about Raam and sort it out. We can move to discussing Vaars if you wish and you can start posting. I think teekas of Bhai Veer Singh and Pandit Narain Singh can be used together. Of course I like the former better. Guru Rakha

[GPS]

We need to be aware what is written in Guru sahib's autobiography before writing something which has no basis.

Guru sahib writes the process he went through.He writes that he meditated on Hemkunt mountain and in the process

he achieved union with God.

ਤਹ ਹਮ ਅਧਿਕ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਸਾਧੀ ॥ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥੨॥

तह हम अधिक तपसिआ साधी ॥ महाकाल कालिका अराधी ॥२॥

There I was absorbed in deep meditation on the Primal Power, the Supreme KAL.2.

ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਿਸਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥

इह बिधि करत तपिसआ भयो ॥ द्वै ते एक रूप ह्वै गयो ॥

In this way, my meditation reached its zenith and I became One with the Omnipotent Lord.

Bachitra natak

So dialogue was not instantaneous. Once you relaize God there is no difference between us and God.

Guru sahib writes further

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥

दोहरा ॥

DOHRA

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਦੁਇ ਏਕ ਹੈ ਬਿਬ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਕਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

हरि हरि जन दुइ एक है बिब बिचार कछु नाहि ॥

The Lord and His devotees are one, there is no difference between them.

ਜਲ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿ ਤਰੰਗ ਜਿਉ ਜਲ ਹੀ ਬਿਖੈ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥੬੦॥

जल ते उपजि तरंग जिउ जल ही बिखै समाहि ॥६०॥

Just as the wave of water, arising in water, merges in water.60.

Dasam Granth sahib , Bachitra natak.

Sachkhand is not a special palace. Once one realizes God sachkhand is then and there.

People who were on Bhagti marg have done this excercise in case of hem kunt. Bhai sahib Bhai Veer

singh ji was one of them.Those who have respect for Guru Gobind Singh ji have respect for the places attached

with him. For nonbelievers their personal ego is paramount than love for Guru. Once ego is there we are

far away from Gurmat.I do not buy theory of womb as Guru sahib is clearly stating

ਹੇਮ ਕੁੰਟ ਪਰਬਤ ਹੈ ਜਹਾਂ ॥ ਸਪਤ ਸ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਸੋਭਿਤ ਹੈ ਤਹਾਂ ॥੧॥

हेम कुंट परबत है जहां ॥ सपत स्रिंग सोभित है तहां ॥१॥

The site was the mountain named Hemkunt, with seven peaks and looks there very impressive.1.

The above means one specific place and womb does not fall in that category.