Bachitar Natak

[Dalvir]

WaheguruJiKaKhalsaWaheguruJiKiFateh

It has been a while since I have last posted on Sikh Sangat. I am now asking the sangat to please help me in a query regarding Bachitar Natak. Guru Ji, in Bachitar Natak states:

"ਪੁਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਮਾਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਕਰਾ ॥ ਭੇਸ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਕੋ ਜਿਨਿ ਧਰਾ ॥

पुनि हरि रामानंद को करा ॥ भेस बैरागी को जिनि धरा ॥

Then I created Ramanand, who adopted the path of Bairagi.

ਕੰਠੀ ਕੰਠਿ ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਡਾਰੀ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਨ ਕਛੂ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੫॥

कंठी कंठि काठ की डारी ॥ प्रभ की क्रिआ न कछू बिचारी ॥२५॥

Around his neck he wore necklace of wooden beads and did not comprehend the ways of the Lord.25.

ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਉਪਜਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੇ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

जे प्रभु परम पुरख उपजाए ॥ तिन तिन अपने राह चलाए ॥

All the great Purushas created by me started their own paths.

ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਤਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਅਰਬ ਦੇਸ ਕੋ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੨੬॥

महादीन तब प्रभ उपराजा ॥ अरब देस को कीनो राजा ॥२६॥

Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਏਕ ਪੰਥ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਲਿੰਗ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੀਨੇ ਸਭ ਰਾਜਾ ॥

तिन भी एक पंथ उपराजा ॥ लिंग बिना कीने सभ राजा ॥

He started a religion and circumcised all the kings."

My question is, if we are to assume this is in fact Bhagat Ramanand mentioned by Sri Guru Ji, and the word "ਪੁਨਿ" is used, meaning 'then', followed by "ਤਬ" meaning 'finally', why has Guru Ji, if this is true, stated Bhagat Ramanand to be created before Muhammad when, historically, Muhammad came first?

Also, I have heard 'Ramanand' mentioned by Sri Guru Ji is not Bhagat Ramanand but someone else. If this is true, could anyone please provide a reference as to who it could be?

Thank you,

WaheguruJiKaKhalsaWaheguruJiKiFateh

[Guest SarabjeetSingh]

I am sure this Ramananda is not same as Bhagat Ramananda ji whose bani is in SGGS .

All bhagats were sikhs of god in a sense . So I doubt that Bhagat Ramanand ji ever started his own path .

And before Guru Nanak dev ji , Muhammad was last prophet of middle east I believe .

Guru ji is saying Muhammad did not gave proper naam to his followers , but he gave his name . refer : Shahadah of Islam .

Muhammad has mentioned that he is a prophet of Allah and that too a final prophet . Muhammad was strayed from mission waheguru sent him to .

Thats why he circumcised all kings . And you see that today what his followers are doing worldwide

[hkaurP]

On a side note, Circumcision is mentioned in the Bible. So Muhammad was just enacting on Abhraham's teaching. Sorry this was totally off topic.

Maybe Ramanand was someone else? Because I dont see why Guru Ji would talk about Bhagat Ramanand in such a manner. Im probably wrong so Bhul Chuk Maaf

[sikha]

People in the middle east were already circumcised at the time, Muhammad just continued something that was already normal practice in the area at the time.

I think this is one of the controversial parts of Bachitar Natak which no one seems to have any decisive answer for. Im looking forward to reading the answers in this thread.

[GPS]

There is nothing controversial in any part of bachitra Natak. The heading of this section is

Speech of akal purakh to this low person.

Guru sahib has written in general about the acts of some so called persons who

were sent by Akal purakh to this world as Akal Purakh bach. Nowhere he has written that events he is describing

are to be taken in Chronological order.

It is a phobia created by anti Guru Gobind singh elements that is creating doubts

in the minds of simple people.

Maybe Ramanand was someone else? Because I dont see why Guru Ji would talk about Bhagat Ramanand in such a manner.

Followers of rama nand are known as Ramanandi and they run in millions in India. They adore him as Guru just like kabir

panthis adore Kabir as their ultimate Guru.

[.- Prabhjot Singh -.]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Dalvir Veerji, I am no expert but i feel that you are looking at the tukk from a narrow, technical viewpoint. In fact, there is another Tukk from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji which, at first glance, could be interpreted as a period error:

ਰਘੁਰਾਜ ਰਾਜੁ ਜਗ ਕੀਨਾ ॥ ਅਤ੍ਰ ਪਤ੍ਰ ਸਿਰ ਢਾਰ ਨਵੀਨਾ ॥੧੩੫॥...

The king Rahghu ruled over the world and wore new arms, weapons and canopies...

ਨਿਸਾ ਤਾਸ ਨਿਸਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਦਿਨਕਰ ਤਾਹਿ ਦਿਵਸ ਅਨਮਾਨਾ ॥...

The nigh considered him as moon and the day as sun...

ਸੰਨਿਆਸਨ ਦੱਤ ਰੂਪ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਜੋਗਨ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਰਖ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ਰਾਮਾਨੰਦ ਬੈਰਾਗਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਦੀਨ ਤੁਰਕਨ ਪਹਚਾਨਾ ॥੧੪੦॥

The Sannyasis considered him as Dattatreya and the Yogis as Guru Gorakhnath; the Bairagis considered him as Ramanand and the Muslims as Muhammad.140.

However, if we read these Tukks carefully we will see what Guruji is saying is that Raghu Raja had all the qualities of Lord Datta, Gorakh Nath, Ramanand and Mohammad. The order in which these names appear does not have to be chronologically correct because that is not the main purpose behind writing these tukks. Same applies to the verses from the Bachittar Natak.

If we insist on being rigid about the chronological rule and apply the same method of argument to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's Bani, then what would we say about these Tukks:

ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਜੈਦੇਵ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ ॥

His praises are sung by saints Ravi Dass, Jaidev and Trilochan.

ਨਾਮਾ ਭਗਤੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸਦਾ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਮ ਲੋਚਨ ॥

Deeming thee even-eyed, the devotees like Name and Kabir ever sing thine praises, O Guru Nanak.

ਭਗਤੁ ਬੇਣਿ ਗੁਣ ਰਵੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਆਤਮ ਰੰਗੁ ਮਾਣੈ ॥

Saying that thou enjoy spiritual bliss with equipoise, Beni, the saint, recites thy praise, O Guru Nanak.

ਜੋਗ ਧਿਆਨਿ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਬਿਨਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ॥

Blessed with the Lord's contemplation and comprehension, thou are blended with Him and know not any other without Him, O Guru Nanak.

ਸੁਖਦੇਉ ਪਰੀਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਤੁ ਗੁਣ ਰਵੈ ਗੋਤਮ ਰਿਖਿ ਜਸੁ ਗਾਇਓ ॥

Sukhdev and Prikhat recite thine virtues and Gautam, the sage, sings thy praise.

ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਨਿਤ ਨਵਤਨੁ ਜਗਿ ਛਾਇਓ ॥੮॥

Says Kal, the poet, the ever fresh sublime praise of Guru Nanak, is diffused through the world.

ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਪਾਯਾਲਿ ਭਗਤ ਨਾਗਾਦਿ ਭੁਯੰਗਮ ॥

In the nether world his praises are sung by the saints, like Sheshnag and other serpents.

ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਗੁਣ ਰਵੈ ਸਦਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਤਿ ਜੰਗਮ ॥

Shiva, Yogis, celibates and the wandering saints ever recite his glories.

ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਮੁਨਿ ਬ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਸੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਬੇਦ ਬ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਕਰਣ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਅ ॥

His praise is sung by Vyas, the silent sage who dwells upon the Vedas and their grammar.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਗੁਣ ਉਚਰੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਵਾਰੀਅ ॥

His praise is recited by Brahma too, who by the Lord's command created the whole world.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਖੰਡ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਣ ਨਿਰਗੁਣ ਸਮ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥

The Lord is fully contained in the universe and its continents. Both in the manifest and unmanifest form, Nanak realises the Lord to be the very same.

ਜਪੁ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਸਹਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੯॥

Kall recites the sublime praise of Guru Nanak, who enjoys the Lord's union.

(Ang 1390, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj)

We can clearly see that all the Maharapurashs mentioned in the above Tukks have existed before Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, yet they are singing Guruji's praises. Our worldly logic fails here and, surely, the chronological rule we set forth for our argument fails completely in this case too. Bit, just like the above verses are spiritually correct, so are the quoted verses from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.

The religious texts as big as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and Sri Dasam Granth Ji cannot be confined to worldly logic Veerjeo, neither they should be rigidly read as history books, for their real purpose is something else altogether