Akj And Tapoban

[Vir Singh]

:T: :T: :T:

[Singh 5]

1)I'm not sure how "questionable" the practices mentioned are....do most ragis do dhunee in keertan? If not, are they "questionable"? As Vir Singh has mentioned, dhunni started after the time of Bhai Randheer Singh jee, and in India there are quite a few Singhs who don't do it. But it's not that big an issue I think.

2)I think you're wrong about AKJ allowing people on stage with shirts/pants. The Jatha is known for making sure keertanees adhere to proper Khalsa BaaNaa. Go to any central smaagam in India and you'll see no one in shirt/pants is allowed to do keertan because it's not the proper uniform. Jathedar Ram Singh jee has written about this quite a bit.

3) There's a proper method everyone is taught to do naam abhyaas, and head banging and swinging isn't part of it. Anyways, this has been discussed on the tapoban website:http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.ppa?f=1&i=2363&t=2158

4)I know young guys who go to Tapoban and they're not sarblohi, and in fact, some aren't even bibeki. The Singhs there believe that sarbloh is an important rehit that everyone should keep, but don't force anyone to do anything. How could they? I know that they tell everyone to do what they can, and if sarbloh doesn't seem possible, then to do it when they can.

5) Perhaps your greatest misconception here is that only Tapoban Singhs believe that pad-chhed shouldn't be parkaash and was wrong to do. Everyone in the AKJ from Bhai Randheer Singh jee onwards believe the same. Jathedar Ram Singh of AKJ has written so much on this topic. AKJ Singhs in India believe in doing parkash of only lareedaar as well

. The following threads show that Singhs who go to tapoban like Kulbir Singh have respect for pad-ched as baaNee, but believe in Lareedaar, just like all AKJ in India:

lareedaar?

saacho guru gavaacho ray

It seems to me that Tapoban Gurdwara is pretty much exactly like the traditional AKJ. It would seem weird to me if they DIDN'T do these things.

[Vir Singh]

Thank you Singh 5 Jee for your answers.

[Singh 5]

I think that the following link explains bibek better than anything I could post here:

Guru Ka Langar & Bibek

[navjotsingh]

ive also heard tapoban people <admin-cut (NO NINDA WILL BE TOLERATED WHATSOEVER)>

[paaraskaur]

WaaheguroooJeeKaaKhalsaaWaaaheguroooJeeKeeFatheh!!!!!!

Piaray "GurbarAkal" Jee I believe most of what you had posted has been clarified by piaray "singh 5" jee, however you mentioned,

"3. Tapoban singhs believe that wen you do naam simran you should only shake your head in up/down manner. AKJ singhs don't care how you shake your head in simran."

Please read the following thread to clarify this point:

http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.ppa?f=1...1&i=2158&t=2158

(insightful posts by Original Giani (OG), and Kulbir Singh jee)

The gurmukh's at Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib are amazing, let's do ardaas that we too can follow the pukkee gurmat rehit that the sangataan there follow.

bhul chuk maaf karnee,

paaras kaur

[Son of Guru Gobind Singh Ji]

ive also heard tapoban people <admin-cut (NO NINDA WILL BE TOLERATED WHATSOEVER)> 

Bhai Sahib, before you asked us to tell you the difference between AKJ and Tapoban. It clearly seemed like you were not aware of a thing about them and now you are telling us this? Perhaps to cause confusion?

[GurbarAkal]

1)I'm not sure how "questionable" the practices mentioned are....do most ragis do dhunee in keertan? If not, are they "questionable"? As Vir Singh has mentioned, dhunni started after the time of Bhai Randheer Singh jee, and in India there are quite a few Singhs who don't do it. But it's not that big an issue I think.

just cuz 'majority' doesn't do simran in keertan we should assume that its not supposed to be done? majority bibian don't tie dastar either in sikh panth so I assume you would not recommend bibian to tie dastar either. Is there any proof that dhunni started after the time of Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh Jee?

I do agree with the Tapoban Singhs on this one. According to the puraatan Singhs who were in the sangat of Bhai Randhir Singh Jee, the Singhs of the AKJ did not use Dhuni at the time. This trend of Dhuni started after Bhai Randhir Singh Jee.

wat puratan singhs you talking about? you heard or Bhai preetam Singh Jee Channi? he's tabla player from bhai sahib's time. He played tabla with Bhai Sahib for 48 hours straight. Go ask him if there was no dhunni done at Bhai Sahib's time. you heard of Bhai M

ehar singh Ji? go ask him if dhunni was done at Bhai Sahib's time. I can give you so many examples of singhs from Bhai sahib's time from that say that dhunni was done.

2)I think you're wrong about AKJ allowing people on stage with shirts/pants. The Jatha is known for making sure keertanees adhere to proper Khalsa BaaNaa. Go to any central smaagam in India and you'll see no one in shirt/pants is allowed to do keertan because it's not the proper uniform. Jathedar Ram Singh jee has written about this quite a bit.

I wasn't talking about big smagams in India. people are not allowed in shirt/pants at big smagam. but in local keertans most akj people don't mind shirt/pants.

3) There's a proper method everyone is taught to do naam abhyaas, and head banging and swinging isn't part of it.

YES!! there is a proper method of naam abhiyas. so i suppose you do naam simran in the "BIR AASAN" position everytime you do naam simran since you were taught in it? and I supposed you take your pajama/pants off wen you do naam simran cuz thats the way you were wen u were given naam.

4)I know young guys who go to Tapoban and they're not sarblohi, and in fact, some aren't even bibeki. The Singhs there believe that sarbloh is an important rehit that everyone

should keep, but don't force anyone to do anything. How could they? I know that they tell everyone to do what they can, and if sarbloh doesn't seem possible, then to do it when they can.

thats y I said "i m not sure if they force it or not".

so do you people think if I bang my head sideways wen I die God's gona ask me hey "gurbarakal" you banged your head sideways your simran is not parwaan GO TO HELL!

do you think If I did simran in keertan God's gona go hey you! you did dhunni in keertan its not right go to Hell! Ever heard of the tuk " GOBIND BHAAO BHAGAT DA BHUKHA" ? it mean god's only hungry of Bhakti!

DO YOU STILL THINK THESE THINGS ARE NOT QUESTIONABLE?

[Singh 5]

Wow GurbarAkal, you seem genuinely annoyed, I don't see why though.

Anyways, to answer your questions, Singhs such as Dr. Surinder Singh jee, Principal Gurmukh Singh jee, etc. all write that dhunee wasn't done in Bhai Sahib's time. When Bhai Jeevan Singh jee was asked, he too agreed that dhunee wasn't done. Yes, at some points in keertan, Bhai Sahib used to be lost in Vaheguru, and the keertan would actually stop, and he'd quietly do naam abhyaas. But like I said, it's an individual's choice to do dhunee or not. One does't become "questionable" if they don't do it...in fact, I think it might require more justification why it needs to be done in akhand keertan. I've never understood why we can break a shabad with words like "dhan guru dhan guru-pyaaray" or "dhan guru nanak", etc. which is clearly kachhee baaNee. I've never seen an akhand paath break like this, so why should akhand keertan. But I'm going off topic. Everyone should do what they feel is right according to Gurmat.

As for shirt/pants: if Guru Sahib is the same at a big smaagam or little smaagam, then why would the maryada change? That's like saying it's ok to do amrit sinchaars with panj pyaaray in shirt/pant if it's "little" with a couple abhilaakhees, but if it's a big program with hundreds, then the punj must wear traditional cholay. If Guru Sahib is same, then maryada has to be the same too, regardless of the size. But I suggest you talk to Malleean Valay Singh and ask if shirt pants are ok for local smaagams. Or maybe ask Bhai Mohinder Singh jee Kala-Sangheean valay. In fact, ask Jathedar

Ram Singh jee. If they say it's ok, then go for it.

As for naam abhyaas: did you have to take of your pants because it's baaNaa to do so and you have to wear BaaNaa to an amrit sinchaar, or did they punj tell you to take off your pants as instructions to do naam abhyaas? Did the punj tell you to assume bir-assan to receive amrit, or did they tell you as part of instructions for naam abhyaas? I think in both cases, it was NOT instructions for naam abhyaas. The punj pyaaray move the head ONLY when instructing how to do naam abhyaas, so it's part of the method. See what I'm saying? Moving of the head was specific to insturctions on naam abhyaas. Taking off pants and bir-assan were not. You just happened at the time the panj taught naam, to not be wearing pants and in bir assan.

And finally, considering only amrit sinchaars at tapoban to be authentic, that would exclude even the rest of AKJ. I don't want this to become a slander-fest, so please stop here. I know the Singhs at tapoban, and no one believes that only amrit sinchaars there are legit. It's a crazy thing to say.

I don't see the reason for all this negativity though :D

[Mkhalsa]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

I wanted to make a few things clear..

as for sarbloh bibek this is followed by every jathebandi but SGPC. It has been around (there is proof) since guru gobind singh jees time and it is written in many rehatnamae, including bhai daya singh jees (first panj pyara).

Another thing is..

I have talked to some older gursikhs, including Khalsa jee (Bhai Jaswant Singh) and he was a bit amused at this simran/dhuni thing. He did a LOT of seva of Bhai Randhir Singh jee and knew him well.. Khalsa jee says that in those days they did do dhuni (i have an old spool from early sixties which proves this) BUT they did not plan it and they didnt do it on every line.. once they started they had a hard time stopping, but a lot of the time vaja/tabla still went, but robotically as they were really into the simran. He also said even Bhai randhir singh jee moved his head side to side, nobody cared how you moved.. most of them their whole bodies were shaking, this shows this "headbanging" as you call it has been around since bhai randhir singhs time and in fact this is something that most gursikhs did back then when doing naam simran, not just jatha valae.. they were so into it they shook every which way they wanted, they didnt care.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!