Infilteration Of Castiesm In Sikhism - How To Tackle This Bhraminical Sickness That Diseased Our Equality-Basedsikh Society

[harj1ts1ngh]

On light note bro I am in town in Van.. Wanna hook up and make out.. Hehe.. I mean make out as in get together and do simran.

Can everyone on the forum who is an admirer of both Neo Veer and only5 Veer's posts (sometimes) please tick the like box as I would really like to see (pics of) Neo Veer and only5 Veer jointly united raising funds for Sikhi by maybe doing a run across the Alex Fraser Bridge for Cancer Roko (as a suggestion)? The day both of you on 1 platform Sikhi will explode in BC and ON!

Do you guys both have a clue how much the Sangat respect both of you? We hate it sometimes when things get heated!

Diagreement with brotherly/sisterly pyaar is the best like how Sant Ji showed the way (contrary to the false GOI lies)

[harj1ts1ngh]

How many marriages last between different types of cultural background people. Even between the same so called caste like Jatt, tarkhans, and bhappa their are different cultural upbringings.

Today you want to fix the caste system by having intermarriages between different cultural backgrounds, but what about tomorrow. When a Sikh and Christian don't see each other as equals? What will you do then? Tell the Sikh and Christian to marry each other?

only5 Veer more than 50% of cross-cultural marriages survive.

Less than 50% of same-culture marriages within America survive.

Therefore the issue is about values. For example, those that believe in Gurmat as their value system have a greater likelihood of making their marriage work even when, more often than not, they ignore and marry across (anti-Sikh) biraderi constraints. Whereas sehajdhari's who don't follow Gurmat like jatts marrying jatts, or khatri's marrying khatri's or tarkhans marrying tarkhans (because they all ignore Gurmat and Kul Nash) will inevitably suffer a greater degree of divorce than two Gursikhs for whom background is meaningless.

Within the Panth, we have to force an increase in inter-marriage to kill out this disease.

Increased following of Gurmat will hold marriages together and a united Sikh Panth can achieve progress sooner.

But forcing marriages so that turkey can be served on Christmas Day won't work because the values and beliefs are different.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11229170

[Only five]

only5 Veer more than 50% of cross-cultural marriages survive.

Less than 50% of same-culture marriages within America survive.[/quote

Where did u get these statistics from?

[harj1ts1ngh]

• 59 percent of marriages for women under the age of 18 end in divorce within 15 years. The divorce rate drops to 36 percent for those married at age 20 or older. " "Cohabitation, Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage in the United States," M.D. Bramlett and W.D. Mosher

• 60 percent of marriages for couples between the ages of 20 and 25 end in divorce. " National Center for Health Statistics

• 50 percent of all marriages in which the brides are 25 or older result in a failed marriage. " National Center for Health Statistics

• Family Relations found that in the case of White men and Black women, couples are substantially less likely than White/White couples to divorce by their 10th year.”

^^^ But the above aside only5 Veer, it's logical if we look at the Sikh Panth in particular.

Those that follow Gurmat and do not marry within the anti-Sikh concept called caste are more likely to be better Sikhs and thereby better spouses with less marriages (between true Gursikhs ignoring background) ending in divorce.

Those that marry according to manmat samaj rules within their own biraderi are likely to be worse people (imho) as they oppose Gurmat and are against the concept of Kul Nash and therefore will end up divorcing more.

[Only five]

Does it say anything about what class of people were included in their research? Income is a huge contributor to whether a marriage last or fails.

Marrying into your own caste is not anti-gurmat. If it is then the Gurus need to be judged by this manmat behaviour. You are expressing extreme views on this topic. Your views are highly offensive to Gurmukhs, Gursikhs and the Gurus who kept the tradition of marrying a person from the same or similar cultural background.

Today there is about a handful of Gursikhs and no more in this world that truly hold to Satguru's values. Does not matter how big a person's dastar is, look close enough and he/she is carrying a lot of past cultural baggage. Some have no problem showing it in public and others do a very good job of hiding it. Humans learn from their environment and if a behaviour is repeated enough in a person life, then this behaviour becomes a habit. Ask yourself who taught you from a young age and where were they from? And habits cannot be broken in a day or a week. Additionally, like minded people stick together and create more smaller inner circles, which exclude others from their bigger circle. These groups are created on the basis of past cultural values, which have been past down from generation to generation. Many of the values that do not stand the test of time are lost, but the more key values of the cultural are kept regardless whether they are with times.

I have know people that read Gurbani throughout their lives and say they practice it, but when it comes to core values of their culture, then Sikhi values are second in line. Pick any jatha, culture, race, nationality, etc and they will exhibit their cultural values as superior to Sikhi values.

If humans were robots and they can be programmed, then get any two robots hitched to solve the caste problem through marriage. But this world is filled with different views and beliefs from people that look very similar. If a Christian can respect a Sikh for his beliefs, then a Jatt can respect a Bhappa for his beliefs. You don't need to trick these people into marriage for a more equal society. If all 4 want to be called Sikh, then drop your cultural beliefs and take on Sikhi values. But just like Satguru Sri Guru Teg Bahudar Sahib gave his head for another's belief system. Sikhs don't force others to drop their cultural beliefs, regardless of how much they don't agree with Sikhi.

[harj1ts1ngh]

Marrying into your own caste is not anti-gurmat. If it is then the Gurus need to be judged by this manmat behaviour. You are expressing extreme views on this topic. Your views are highly offensive to Gurmukhs, Gursikhs and the Gurus who kept the tradition of marrying a person from the same or similar cultural background.

only5 Veerji true Gursikhs don't care for material wealth so they wouldn't be affected by the income bracket they are within too much i don't think, non-Gursikhs sure.

Deliberately marrying into one's own caste is totally anti-Gurmat. Our Guru's did not marry according to manmat samaj rules. But Mughals lied about the background of those blessed enough to be the worldly spouse of our Guru Sahiban in order to keep the Sikh Qaum divided. Thus, all the non-Khatri spouses were deliberately written up by Mughal and Pandit revisionists as being Khatri (when in fact they were not). Veer no offense but I'm actually kinda shocked that you believe this marrying your own caste baloney. But I still got mad love for you overall. (Hetero and brotherly only, of course lol). Especially when you and Neo Veer sometimes agree.

Veer ordinary Sikhs who define themselves as Jatt or Khatri are not Gursikhs. If they can be forced to marry each other it will lessen their hurdles in adopting Gurmat.

Remember Veerji that Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji gave their life for the right of all humans to practise their own religion in peace. Belief in biraderi is fine for people who are Muslims, Christians or Hindu's. But for a Sikh it is not acceptable. Marriage endogamy according to caste is as anti-Gurmat and anti-Sikh a cultural belief as you can get.

Vakhre Gurughar as a result of us not tackling this cancerous manmat ideology are the result. We have to burn it out of the Panth like the evil Masands were Veerji.

[Only five]

1. only5 Veerji true Gursikhs don't care for material wealth so they wouldn't be affected by the income bracket they are within too much i don't think, non-Gursikhs sure.

2. Deliberately marrying into one's own caste is totally anti-Gurmat. Our Guru's did not marry according to manmat samaj rules. But Mughals lied about the background of those blessed enough to be the worldly spouse of our Guru Sahiban in order to keep the Sikh Qaum divided. Thus, all the non-Khatri spouses were deliberately written up by Mughal and Pandit revisionists as being Khatri (when in fact they were not). Veer no offense but I'm actually kinda shocked that you believe this marrying your own caste baloney. But I still got mad love for you overall. (Hetero and brotherly only, of course lol). Especially when you and Neo Veer sometimes agree.

3.Veer ordinary Sikhs who define themselves as Jatt or Khatri are not Gursikhs. If they can be forced to marry each other it will lessen their hurdles in adopting Gurmat.

Remember Veerji that Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji gave their life for the right of all humans to practise their own religion in peace. Belief in biraderi is fine for people who are Muslims, Christians or Hindu's. But for a Sikh it is not acceptable. Marriage endogamy according to caste is as anti-Gurmat and anti-Sikh a cultural belief as you can get.

Vakhre Gurughar as a result of us not tackling this cancerous manmat ideology are the result. We have to burn it out of the Panth like the evil Masands were Veerji.

1. So any research done on different religious people or cultural people will not apply to Sikhs or Gursikhs?

2. I don't agree for one second on this part as it's far out their type of information. You will need to provide some very convincing arguments and valid and reliable proof before anyone accepts this conclusion. I have not gone back and checked the sources of the Gursikhs who told me that the Gurus married into the same caste, but I trust them enough to know they will not lie.

Veer no offense but I'm actually kinda shocked that you believe this marrying your own caste baloney. But I still got mad love for you overall. (Hetero and brotherly only, of course lol). Especially when you and Neo Veer sometimes agree.

Here let me explain this more. I would not marry a person who is a Jatt and from a different region from where my parents lived in Punjab. Some will ask....both sides are Jatts, so why not? Simple because of cultural background. Nothing to do with caste and everything to do with cultural upbringing. They go left and I go right. When they want to go left, I say hell with that I'm going right. Not all Jatts are the same. The same happens between other caste. Same happens between religions when cultural views get involved.

3. I can't speak for others, but I don't define myself as a Jatt, but acknowledge where I came from. If we want to go deeper into our roots. Then at one point in time our great grandfathers were Hindus. This is nothing to be ashamed of or proud of. In Gurbani caste names of the Gurus are mentioned and going off memory even Bhagat Dhanna ji is mentioned as Bhagat Dhanna Jatt ji.

[harj1ts1ngh]

I have not gone back and checked the sources of the Gursikhs who told me that the Gurus married into the same caste, but I trust them enough to know they will not lie.

Here let me explain this more. I would not marry a person who is a Jatt and from a different region from where my parents lived in Punjab. Some will ask....both sides are Jatts, so why not? Simple because of cultural background. Nothing to do with caste and everything to do with cultural upbringing. They go left and I go right. When they want to go left, I say hell with that I'm going right. Not all Jatts are the same. The same happens between other caste. Same happens between religions when cultural views get involved.

Sure Veerji, i do believe that true Gursikhs are not affected by monetary implications in their marriage success rates as others. But no doubt the poorer people are and the more financial struggles they have to go through, the more difficult their marriages might potentially become.

Veer, the conclusion that deliberately marrying into one's own caste is totally anti-Gurmat is undeniable. Our Guru's did not marry according to manmat samaj rules. But Mughals lied about the background of those blessed enough to be the worldly spouse of our Guru Sahiban in order to keep the Sikh Qaum divided. Thus, all the non-Khatri spouses were deliberately written up by Mughal and Pandit revisionists as being Khatri (when in fact they were not).

Otherwise, how else would you explain multiple Punjabi sources that cite Mata Ganga Ji (wife of Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj) as being from a Kamboh background. Clearly, therefore Guru Arjan Dev Ji in attacking manmat caste endogamy rules set a very dangerous precedent which threatened the Mughal Empire. Thousands upon thousands of Muslims were converting to Sikhi. Intermarriage between Sikhs was increasing with our Guru Sahib leading the way. All of this led to Guru Sahib's shaheedi as the Muslims were scared of Sikhi, the revolutionary message of total equality that Sikhi presents and the lifestyle of various Gurmukhs from all different backgrounds originally but totally united by Sikhi and Guru Sahib's message thereafter.

Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji, who resultantly had no individual caste background either, was married to Mata Nanaki who was of Jatt background. But on seeing the great increase in Jatts joining the Panth when Guru Hargobind Sahib explained Miri and Piri the Mughals realised that the narrative had to be re-written in order to hide this evidence of our Guru's going against manmat samaj caste rules from future generations. Mata Nihal Kaur Ji (mother of Guru Har Rai Sahib) was from an Arora background which originally was also a separate Sindhi ancestry from Punjabi Khatri's.

Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji consequently clearly had no caste affiliation by blood (as did none of our Guru Sahiban spiritually as all our Guru Sahiban advocated Kul Nash) with even Mata Gujjar Kaur clearly not from a Khatri background in spite of what Mughal and Pandit writers tried to subsequently imply.

As for sources, what better source than Giani Ditt Singh but also others more recent such as Sadhu Daya Singh and Shamsher Singh Ashok. It suits those with an anti-Sikh agenda (i don't mean you personally here) to repeat the Mughal lies about the Guru's following manmat samaj caste endogamy rules because they know that so long as ignorant anti-Gurmat Sikhs can use the false manmat crutch of false itihas related to our Guru Sahiban lives they can continue marrying within their own caste just like their Hindu and Muslims ancestors did. Thus anti-Sikh dushts can keep the Panth divided along artificial lines.

Whilst our earlier Guru Sahiban had accepted the wisdom of their non-Sikh parents choosing suitable spouses and not decried that, it becomes patently anti-Sikh itihas when non-Khatri spouses of our later Guru Sahiban are falsely whitewashed as being Khatri in order to attack Gurmat and our Guru Sahib. Then again, in the past a non-Sikh wife of a Sikh was automatically termed a Sikh who would follow her husband's faith, so there may be a cultural bias within Punjabi's that a son is termed only according to the caste of his father (and similarly so for a wife) despite actual history showing that our Guru Sahib did not all marry according to manmat samaj cultural biraderi rules of Hinduism and Islam's discriminatory evil caste systems.

only5 Veer if you insist on marrying a Jatt wife from your particular region that's your choice. But if folks do then they should admit it's as a result of cultural beliefs and cultural conditioning and accept that they are doing so contrary to what Gurmat and Gurbani and Rehat Maryada clearly advise. I have to admit that i would lose a lot of my respect for you on this point if you actually did believe in marrying within the same caste. As Muslims use the same excuse to marry their same caste cousins.

There is nothing wrong in acknowledging one's ancestry. An African American shouldn't be scared to have respect for his ancestry. A Chinese Canadian in Richmond shouldn't be scared of admitting that Mom and Dad came from Hong Kong. Likewise you should be proud that your great grandparents chose the Khalsa Panth which stomps out all caste identity. But if in 2013 you were to insist upon marrying a Jatt wife then I'll tell you that's a big part of why our Panth is in the state it's in today as people value culture and manmat samaj biraderi rules set by Hinduism and Islam on marriage more than Gurmat.

only5 Veer we need to free as many Sikhs as posible from the manmat concept of "marrying within your own caste" nonsense.

We can marry a Gursikh spouse without asking or enquiring what her background is but instead choosing her for her qualities.

[Only five]

i would like to continue but there is no point on continuing when you are not acknowledging the other side. Instead you continue to keep repeat your original point regardless what is presented. I have no problem with you saying I am going against gurmat in this regard because you have a fanatical stand on this topic.

[harj1ts1ngh]

^^^ only5 Veer this is not personal but surely we Sikhs have to stand by Gurmat regardless of how fanatical it may seem to hate the Hindu and Muslims caste system.

Veer our Panth is being destroyed by this cancer so we have to adopt the same methods used by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj to deal with the evil Masands.

Maanas ki jaath sab he ek pechaanbo. I know you fully believe that and you don't even define yourself on your ancestry, so why do we disagree? Bhul chuk maaf