Tesiya Dancing Before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

[Ragmaala]

@Jaspreet1

Throughout the day, we encounter many negative/bad/lustful/other images. Even our unconscious spills out many images during sleep. Can we not have Spiritual images of Gursikhs/Sants/Mahapurakhs/Warriors/ Representation of Gurus in our minds to purify our thoughts, along with constant reminders from Gurbani?

Do you ever watch movies/TV shows ? If you do , you are also doing dhyan of millions of images being flashed at you /s .

[Singh559]

Did God come down to Bhagat Dhana and say that you should NOT have ever worshiped the stone ??

If someone uses a picture or stone to 'help' them to try and connect with the lord, then can we really call that a blind ritual ?

If i write reminders on my fridge door that help me to remember times and appointments, then is the fridge door itself an important internal part of my mind ?

Can we not use physical 'Tools' to help us connect ??

If not, then what is and why use a mala ?

Why have chaur sahib ?

If someone thinks a stone or picture can help them in any way they are gravely mistaken and will waste this life away and enter charasi lakh joon.

I will go as far as saying this moorti pooja even insults the Hindu avtars, of course it also insults Sants.

[jaspreet1]

Did God come down to Bhagat Dhana and say that you should NOT have ever worshiped the stone ??

If someone uses a picture or stone to 'help' them to try and connect with the lord, then can we really call that a blind ritual ?

If i write reminders on my fridge door that help me to remember times and appointments, then is the fridge door itself an important internal part of my mind ?

Can we not use physical 'Tools' to help us connect ??

If not, then what is and why use a mala ?

Why have chaur sahib ?

Are you able to read Dasam Bani? In the shabad you quote back to me Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib says you can try to feed a stone idol food, but it won't eat the food. Bhagat Dhanna ji received the stone as it was God and when he went to feed the stone, the stone did not eat the food. Bhagat Dhanna ji sat for hours waiting for the stone to eat, but as Gurbani says the stone idol cannot eat food because it is dead. Bhagat Dhanna ji's service was accepted as Gurbani says:

ਧੰਨੈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਬਾਲ ਬੁਧਿ ॥ ang 1192

Bhagat Dhanna ji did not have the knowledge to understand how to worship the lord. He was a child when coming to understand what, where, and who God is. God saw this child like innocence and presented himself.

You can believe that stone worship leads to God, but my Guru's Bani, my Guru is the only spiritual teacher that has clarified this beautiful occurrence. Many of the so called "educated" Sikhs who believe in picture worship have very nasty things to say about my illiterate Sikh brothers and sisters. Bhagat Dhanna ji showed these "educated" Sikhs that service to the Lord is approved don't matter how much knowledge they don't have. A pure heart and devotion is needed. Only the Vedas scripture follower "Sikhs" will disagree with Dhan Guru ji and Dasam Bani.

Gurbani is eternal and universal so when Gurbani says stone idol worship is wrong it is saying to everyone, including Bhagat Dhanna ji, but as Gurbani explained above Bhagat ji did not know better and no one taught him better till Darshan was received and God became the servant of Bhagat ji.

Gurbani is telling you that stone/picture idol worship is wrong, but still you want to defy Dhan Guru ji. Your choice to do whatever you want, but Dhan Pita ji has spoken in Aad Bani and Dasam Bani.

[luckysingh99]

Are you able to read Dasam Bani? In the shabad you quote back to me Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib says you can try to feed a stone idol food, but it won't eat the food. Bhagat Dhanna ji received the stone as it was God and when he went to feed the stone, the stone did not eat the food. Bhagat Dhanna ji sat for hours waiting for the stone to eat, but as Gurbani says the stone idol cannot eat food because it is dead. Bhagat Dhanna ji's service was accepted as Gurbani says:

ਧੰਨੈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਬਾਲ ਬੁਧਿ ॥ ang 1192

Bhagat Dhanna ji did not have the knowledge to understand how to worship the lord. He was a child when coming to understand what, where, and who God is. God saw this child like innocence and presented himself.

You can believe that stone worship leads to God, but my Guru's Bani, my Guru is the only spiritual teacher that has clarified this beautiful occurrence. Many of the so called "educated" Sikhs who believe in picture worship have very nasty things to say about my illiterate Sikh brothers and sisters. Bhagat Dhanna ji showed these "educated" Sikhs that service to the Lord is approved don't matter how much knowledge they don't have. A pure heart and devotion is needed. Only the Vedas scripture follower "Sikhs" will disagree with Dhan Guru ji and Dasam Bani.

Gurbani is eternal and universal so when Gurbani says stone idol worship is wrong it is saying to everyone, including Bhagat Dhanna ji, but as Gurbani explained above Bhagat ji did not know better and no one taught him better till Darshan was received and God became the servant of Bhagat ji.

Gurbani is telling you that stone/picture idol worship is wrong, but still you want to defy Dhan Guru ji. Your choice to do whatever you want, but Dhan Pita ji has spoken in Aad Bani and Dasam Bani.

I know what you are saying above. But you are going of on a tangent.

You have not answered or responded to the actual questions about using a picture as a physical reminder to help engage you internally, have you ?? :stupidme:

Please look back on the post again and try to see or comprehend what i said.

[jaspreet1]

I know what you are saying above. But you are going of on a tangent.

You have not answered or responded to the actual questions about using a picture as a physical reminder to help engage you internally, have you ?? :stupidme:

Please look back on the post again and try to see or comprehend what i said.

You asked about Bhagat Dhanna ji and I answered your question. You asked and I answered the question, there was no tangent. Bhagat Dhanna ji remark of yours was the base of your argument. Which I answered. Nanaksar people are worshipping pictures and are not using them as an aid to think about the good deeds of the person in the picture. Standing before these pictures they get people to ask for baby boys. Sikhi has no problem with having photos in Gurdwaras or homes, as long as these photos are not being worshipped. Photos are used to tell a story and Sikhi has no problem with it.

Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji had 52 poets with him. Do you really think he could not get an artist to draw his picture if he really wanted too? Remember 52 poets not 1 or 2 but 52. After getting it drawn he could have got every Sikh to worship the picture. Being the Supreme Being, Guru ji knew Sikhs will fall back into the traps of idol worship. I cannot confirm at the moment, but I am pretty sure at Takht Hazur Sahib and Takht Patna Sahib their is idol worship going on of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's photo.

[N30S1NGH]

Jaspreet Singh,

Please allow me to go further on sargun aspects in our dharam and ask you more questions hoping to understand your angle or logic.

1. What do you see when sikhs matha taikh or partial bow down to nishan sahib? Respect or idol worship?

2. What do you see when sikhs matha taik or partial bow to Sri Guru Maharaj relics in ethashik gurdwaras such as guru hargobind sahib chola, wodden kanga of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj and ganga sagar? Respect or idol worship?

3. What do you see when sikhs matha taikh to bown down to shastars? Respect or idol worship?

4. What do you see when sikhs who are doing chaur sahib seva on sri guru granth sahib ji sargun saroop? also on japji sahib pothi during raul at times? Respect or idol worship?

5. What do you consider when sikh brings vahiguroo in gurmukhi letters in their dhyan or meditation as intial stages ? idol worship?. Satguru does points out in later stages- Eh akhar kirh jaingaie, vo akhar inn mein nahi | Akhar Dristh Man Jaita Nanak Parbhram Nirlaipa ||

6. What do you consider when sikhs inadvertently/automatically have their surti drawn towards physical saroop of guru sahib and gursikhs-both artistic, real and ethashik pictures on facebook? for more than 10 secs? As traditionally 10 seconds equal to 1 dhyan. Idol worship?

7. How do you interpret many shabads which as sargun and nirgun? sometimes more sargun than nirgun? For example-

Aaj More Aaye Hain supan charithr chithr baanak banae bachithra

paavan pavithr mithr aaj maerai aaeae hai

param dhaeiaal laal lochan bisaal mukha

bachan rasaal madhh madhhur peeaaeae hai

sobhith sijaasan bilaasan dhai a(n)kamaala

praemaras bisam hue sehaj samaaeae hai

chaathrik sabadh sun akheeaa oughar gee

bhee jal meen gath bireh jagaaeae hai

I saw Him (my beloved) in a vision. It was an amazing sight!

His form was adorned in a wondrous way.

My extremely sacred, beloved and pure friend came to me today. (in my vision)

He is the greatest and most merciful and he is my beloved Laal. (a very precious thing)

He has beautiful eyes.

Words from His mouth are sweet as nectar.

Hearing them I drink Madh Madhur (sweet and delicious honey.)

He was seated on a beautiful bed and He hugged me to Him.

I was filled with indescribable bliss.

Lost in the wonder of the sweetness of His love, I became blended with Him.

I the chatrik bird, after hearing the Divine Shabad, understood everything. (my inner eye opened)

Now I am like a fish in water. Great Bairaag (longing of separation) has sprouted inside me.

8. Have you read bhai nand lal ji poetry towards fully personaified sri guru gobind singh ji sargun avtar roop? You consider that as idol worship also? Here is the sample- http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/7249-bhai-nand-lal-goya-and-his-craving-poetry/

9. Its ethashik known fact sri guru tegh bahudar ji let one of artist draw his picture- according to soraj parkash granth..What you consider of artist while he was drawing the picture of satguru ji? Idol worship?

10. When satguru ji mentions below and if sikh recites it and brings actual visualization of the below for more than 10 seconds each going through one by one in gurbani, is he committing idol worship?

ਜਲੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਥਲੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਉਰੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਬਨੇ ਹਰੀ ॥੧॥੫੧॥

जले हरी ॥ थले हरी ॥ उरे हरी ॥ बने हरी ॥१॥५१॥

The Lord is in water. The Lord is on land. The Lord is in the heart. The Lord is in the forests.1.51.

ਗਿਰੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਗੁਫੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਛਿਤੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਨਭੇ ਹਰੀ ॥੨॥੫੨॥

गिरे हरी ॥ गुफे हरी ॥ छिते हरी ॥ नभे हरी ॥२॥५२॥

The Lord is in he mountains. The Lord is in the cave. The Lord is in he earth. The Lord is in the sky. 2.52.

ਈਹਾਂ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਉਹਾਂ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਜਿਮੀ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਜਮਾ ਹਰੀ ॥੩॥੫੩॥

ईहां हरी ॥ उहां हरी ॥ जिमी हरी ॥ जमा हरी ॥३॥५३॥

The Lord is in here. The Lord is there. The Lord is in the earth. The Lord is in the sky. 3.53.

ਅਲੇਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਭੇਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਦੋਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਦ੍ਵੈਖ ਹਰੀ ॥੪॥੫੪॥

अलेख हरी ॥ अभेख हरी ॥ अदोख हरी ॥ अद्वैख हरी ॥४॥५४॥

The Lord is Ac countless. The Lord is guiseless. The Lord is blemishless. The Lord is sans duality.

Thats its for now.

[N30S1NGH]

This is based on my research and after listening countless hours of divan of sant isher singh ji rara sahib and cross checking with traditional sikhi/orders. Rara sahib is different samparda than nanaksar. But even then, sant isher singh ji rara sahib acknowledge and encourage people in intial stages to bring picture of guru sahib or mahapursh in their meditation along with shabad (This is clearly mentioned in atamik vichar tape available for download)..note they and i just reiterate intial/beginning stages only not confine or wrap their head around it or end all or be all.

Personally I used to bring picture of guru nanak dev ji along with shabad in the past- 7 years ago, now automatically i m more drawn toward satguru nanak nirgun shabad gyan saroop- advait sarop- all pervading supreme pure existence consciousness bliss.

Gurbani is so vast that it applies to each and every human being at different different state of mind and consciousness.

Gur Ki Moraat Man Mein Dyaan Gur ka shabad mantar man maan - beginner stage (sargun upasana- incorporating imagery of Guru and Shabad together to have dhyan parpak- making foundation of dhyan strong)

Gur Morat Guru Shabad Hai - intermediate stage- (still towards sargun, start slowly going towards nirgun gyan) - Eh akhar kirh jaingaie, vo akhar inn mein nahi | Akhar Dristh Man Jaita Nanak Parbhram Nirlaipa ||

Sabh Gobind Hai Sabh Gobind Hai - practicing seeing sabh gobind in everything/self enquiry to get rid of duality and ego- advanced stage

Perceiving bhram (Sabh Gobind Hai Sabh Gobind Hai ) in everything partakh in every moment- (bhramgyan stage-anubhav of nirgun gyan).

Here is taksali view on this, it resonates with traditional orders such as rara sahib, nanaksar.

Regarding guru sahib pictures, please read reply by one of taksali singh reply from the long thread we had in the past:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70341-say-no-to-gurus-pictures/page-4

Quote

Sant Kartar Singh Ji said that pics of guru sahibs are like a walking stick. They can help a person onto the path, they can help a person learn how to walk, but eventually the sikh has no need for pics (walking stick) n walks himself with bani.

It's the usual throw the baby out with the bath water thing, rather than deal with the issue revisionists try n find a new jihad to fight!

This is such a non issue it's funny, but at the same time it's expressive of the twisted way revisionists are trying to reframe Sikhi. Benti, beware of these people, they cause havoc by stirring pointless isssues but have no iinterest in real Sikhi of gurbani abhiyaas, naam kamai, seva of guru and sangat and spiritual progression.

If you want to be a missionary of Guru Nanak Dev Ji then be one like Bhai Gurdas Ji. But oh hang on, you don't believe in his vaars, you can't open a pothi of his vaars near maharajh and you can't get your head around his words even if you do try. Never mind.

[luckysingh99]

Self -righteous Jaspreet

Most of us are here on this forum to learn from each other and to help develop ourselves in sikhi and gurmat.

You, on the other hand are just here to spread your own propaganda and hatred towards others.

Don't worry we have seen quite a few 'self righteous'' and ''Holier than thou'' attitude members on here before .And eventually,they stop barking !

Anyway, I think you have realized that the majority of the sikhs that are likely to be in the vicinities of these North american GAP stores, have absolutely NO problem with the ad.

It's just the very few and the ones with the old indian mindset that have the biggest problem.

I am not going to have any further discussion with you or anyone else to prove 'why the ad doesn't bother me'' and neither am i going to bash any jathabandis or argue for their practices.

SIkhs like you, hold me and others back from our own. personal spiritual ladders.

These kind of dialogs, with these attitudes, don't lead to anyone learning anything or moving up their spiritual ladders.

For me, this becomes a HUGE drain on my own spirituality, simran and meditation progress, therefore I have absolutely no further interest in your dialog unless i feel I may learn something.

ADIOS....from me and the sikhs of New Mexico !

[luckysingh99]

With reference to the above by N30ji, have a look at the thread about ''image of the guru shabad''

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/71543-image-of-the-guru-shabad/?hl=%2Bimage+%2Bguru

[jaspreet1]

If someone thinks a stone or picture can help them in any way they are gravely mistaken and will waste this life away and enter charasi lakh joon.

I will go as far as saying this moorti pooja even insults the Hindu avtars, of course it also insults Sants.

Thank you for standing up for truth and speaking it.