Huge Violation Of Sikh Maryada By Akali & Congress Leaders: Chandumarja And Others Impose Tilak On Guru Granth Sahib

[tarisingh]

Brother 1699,

wjkk, wjkf

I have felt from your thread is that you are concerned more about Hindutva, RSS, Ravidassia etc. etc. Let me politely ask you, are you a Sikh or a chamar? Because from your discussion, it smells of the plan to pollute Sikhi with those who call Ravidass as Guru, bring them into Sikhi fold and create such a mess that Sikhi is destroyed from inside because these people would insist of calling Ravidass as Guru. Since they would already be in, mess is there and there goes our Sikhi down the drain. So you want all these Raviadss followers ina nd turn SIkhi upside down? Destroy all its concepts and loose everything gained over 3 centuries and destroy everything by striking at its core by diluting it and making another guru. Don't be surprised that when we have two symbols, two jaikaras, two granths (three actually), two traditions. Wonderful plan brother. This is called Hindutva agenda.

I know you may feel bad in what I am saying. But please tell me how else what you are saying can be interpreted?

What surprises me is that you support those who want to go out of the bounds of Sikh Mariada and when I say that "let's not dilute Sikhi", you complain that we are falling into hands of RSS or Hindutva agenda. How could it be so? Do we need Ravidassias, Radhasoamis, Kabirpantias, Noormehlias now? How come you want to assimilate all these people when they don't even care about Sikh Mariada and Sikh Gurus?

It beats me. May be brother, it is you who may have been influenced by RSS agenda. I have merely said that Ravidass followers are not Sikhs. When did Ravidassia become Sikhs? When did people who are bent of making another Guru become Sikhs? Why is your focus on Ravidass followers only? Are you a chamar or a SIkh? Brother when you are Sikh, Khalsa, you are not some Ravidassia or Noormahlia, aur Saudha Saadh chela. What Dera Ballan does is their business. Why do we Sikhs want to snatch any title forcibly from someone when we already have a tile of "Sikh" or "Khalsa"? Beats me. Maybe you would know better. Tomorrow you would say Radhasoami title can't be used by Gurinder Singh Dhillon's chela? Or something more in future.

Following your line of thought, we should go ahead and assimilate all Deras where chamars, mazhabis go and have their own gurus or go to all deras and make everybody a Sikh even though they don't give damn to us and don't call our Gurus as Gurus. It beats me brother. And once they get in, they turn Sikhi upside down because they are in majority and we sit on sidelines watching everything destroyed from inside out. Good plan but won't fly. Maybe you should approach SGPC with your plan.

Your egalitarian attitude is appreciable but don't pollute Sikhi with that element which is not Sikh. Ravidassia people will NEVER be SIkh and SIKHS will never be Ravidassia people. Sikh can only be Sikh (Sehajdhari or Amritdhari). Please don't make it harder.

Rab Rakha

But you have to realize that we Sikhs are not Raviadssias.

1699 = Gurfateh bir'ay. But I strongly disagree with your point. I am saying ONLY Sikhs are true Ravidassia's as ONLY WE Sikhs believe in Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj's teachings. Dera Ballan do not. Dera Ballan are merely apartheid activists and so have no right to take the historic Sikh term+demographic (Ravidassia) away from the Sikh Panth. Very similar to the term Ramgarhia falsely appropriated away from the saanjha pride of the whole Panth by other Congress cronies. The Ramgarhia Misl's warriors were composed 90% of Amritdhari fighters from erstwhile non-tarkhan occupations as diverse apart as Pandits, Farmers, Leatherworkers, Brewers, Barbers, Water Carriers, Washermen, Weavers etc, etc yet today we have apartheid mindset committee's monopolising biraderi-based golak's on the basis of a false exclusivity cooked up about the word Ramgarhia.

Ravidass is NOT our Guru.

1699 = Nobody is saying that Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj held GurGaddi in the succession of divine Truth following Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj. However, Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is our Guru Sahib so why worry about what others than yourself respectfully address one of the most blessed authors of Guru Sahib? Don't get caught up in semantics bir'ay. Others cannot stop you from being a Sikh in the way you have always been. This is about increasing the collective strength and power of the Panth. You won't be forced to do anything you have never done before! :-)

He is not equal to be Guru. He doesn't deserve to be Guru.

1699 = This is nonsense. The most blessed authors of Gurbani and their shloks in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are not to be separated, segregated or ranked. Shabad Bani is our Guru and Das and yourself are not in a position to decide whether a Bhagat can also be considered a teacher as the term Guru means in Sanskrit. Note that mere use of the term Guru by others does not equate to declaring a 12th Guru. GurGaddi has clearly only transferred ten times between our 11 Guru Sahib. Let other fellow Sikhs use whichever respectful prefixes give them shanti.

Else Guru Nanak Dev Sahib would have addressed him as such in SGGS.

1699 = Guru Sahib talks also of the dust of the Saints feet. We are not Guru's and nor should we expel Sikhs from the Panth on account of minor theological differences. We should focus on what unites us. United we Stand. Divided we fall (as our Hindutva opponents would like to see us do).

Please, I am not against Bhagat Ji or anything but respectfull,

1699 = Yes I hear that bir'ay

we must limit Gurus to 10 and SGGS.

1699 = But GurGaddi succession is undeniably limited to 10 Guru Sahibaan and SGGS. Mere use of an honorary prefix of respect and Satkaar does not change history or interject a 12th Guru in the line of GurGaddi.

If leatherworkers want to come to Sikhi, they must accept only 10 Gurus and SGGS.

1699 = The vast majority in Punjab of leatherworking ancestry are already Sikh. It is our Hindutva opponents aim to have the said demographic of millions of current Sikhs declared as non-Sikhs by the time of the 2021 Punjab census. Either we fight tooth and nail to end biraderi discrimination and matrimonial apartheid so that the Panth has only one single Gurdwara in every pind in Punjab (with personal community level tolerance for others who have non-mainstream beliefs) or we see Sikhi reduced to a minority faith in Punjab by 2021. Simple.

It is not being fussy, it is just protecting our interests.

1699 = I am 100% arguing bir'ay that what you "think" amounts to protecting our interests is absolutely against our interests and is in fact like shooting ourselves in the foot on behalf of our Hindutva opponents. Bir'ay think of why Hindutva and RSS agree with everything you have stated in this thread? That should tell you something in of itself. I'm not accusing you of being a mouthpiece for the RSS or Hindutva forces but merely requesting bir'ay that you analyse what our opponents want us to do in such a situation.

According to you, we should assimilate all chamars/leatherworkers

1699 = Exactly! There are 50 million people of a leatherworking ancestry throughout India. And fools such as myself are deficient in educating those natural born Sikhs about Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj's contribution to Gurbani, that only the Sikh Panth can actually bring about Begumpura through Sarbat da Bhala, that Hindu's and Muslims spat at Sikhs for our Sikh fauj being led by Shaheed Bhai Sangat Singh Ji and Giani Ditt Singh Ji being the foremost academic mind the Panth produced in the latter half of the 19th century. The enemies of the Sikh Panth are terrified that if the Panth succeeds in building bridges with hundreds of millions of natural born Sikhs not limited to those like Kabirpanthi's, Sanatani's and poor people not able to read Gurbani in their own languages ... but even the 40 million Brahmins in India who are overwhelmingly unaware of the family ancestry of Shaheed Bhai Mati Das Ji and Shaheed Bhai Sati Das Ji (as two examples) ... due to our insular closed-mindedness and reluctance to push for a bigger Sikh Panth more able to stand up for our own interests as well as protecting others for Sarbat Da Bhala. Our enemies want Sikhs to be a powerless minority in Punjab by 2021. They even want kesdhari and sehajdhari Punjabi Sikhs excluded from the definition of a Sikh so that the Khalsa Panth is left an utterly powerless minority (unable to protect itself let alone anybody else).

let's bring Naamdharis into Sikhi too and call Balak Nath as 11th Guru (this is what they believe), or get Nirankaris into Sikhi fold too and call thier Hardev Singh as Guru or get Radhaswamis and their head Gurinder Singh Dhillon as Sikh guru and mess up everything.

1699 = You hit the nail on the head. Our Hindutva opponents game was to come up with one fake cult and dera after another. To split off one biraderi background at a time away from Sikhi. We can either continue lapping it up as we have since 1984 and do our Hindutva opponents dirty work for them or we can turn their tactics back on their manuvadi heads. We do so by accepting all the fake cults as Sikhs, building bridges with the innocent shardaloo's and using the fake cults to nevertheless communicate some form of Gurbani knowledge (albeit perverted) to a wider audience as all publicity can be good publicity in today's world (think of how 9/11 actually encouraged conversions to Islam). Eventually they will end up at the Truth of mainstream Sikhi (Gurmat). Look at how the Sunni Muslims in America doubled and tripled their population via the cult known as the NOI. Of course Islam itself is a provably false cult but that's besides the point being discussed here. Every former Sikh becoming a new Hindu is something you should not support if you claim to care about Sikhi. It's obvious which strategy will win. One seeks to reduce its own Panth's population. The other seeks to expand the Hindutva political vote bank by including everyone within its ranks.

I have no love for ... Dera Ballan. Who gives damn whether they are apartheid followers or not.

1699 = That's right if they want to promote caste apartheid and marry within their own caste let them. But no way can we stupidly allow will their political leaders try to take the Sikh term and Ravidassia demographic away from the Sikh Panth. Dera Ballan are welcome to call themselves Hindutva stooges or apartheid activists so long as the do not try to claim the mantle for the term Ravidassia or associate themselves with Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj given their blatant disrespect for his teachings.

Good for them. If they are RSS agents, who cares? Not our business.

1699 = That's your opinion bir'ay. I've outlined why I strongly disagree.

If leatherworkers leave Sikhi, it doesn't matter. Who cares?

1699 = I care and every Sikh who doesn't want to see the Panth reduced to a powerless minority in Punjab should care. And if that doesn't matter to you then you can't seriously complain with a straight face about Genocides aimed at the Sikh Panth as that's what happens to minorities without a critical population mass. Population size matters. Only the Khalsa Panth should be niyara where quality supercedes quantity.

They want to make a non Sikh their Guru, they can do it. Nobody stops them.

1699 = Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj was no Hindu as they totally despised and exposed Hinduism as the pyramid of lies it is (as evidenced in Gurbani).

Power to them but why should we dilute the Sikhi to accommodate them.

1699 = How does your Sikhi get diluted as a consequence of accepting other members of the human family as fellow members of the Sikh Panth (albeit that their beliefs may not exactly tally with our own)?

Sikhs are not Raviadssias. If Sikhs are Ravidassias then Sikh can be Radhaswamis too, Sikhs can be Noormahlias too, SIkhs can be Kabirpanthis too.

1699 = Sikhs are only Sikhs of course bir'ay. Sikhs should not even have biraderi affiliations. But to respond to Hindutva divide and rule tactics, we do need to emphasise that ONLY Sikhs can claim to be true Ravidassia's and indeed that Kabirpanthi's, RS followers, Nirankari's are by default Sikhs since the kernel of truth in those beliefs matches or emanates from Gurbani.

I understand that you want to enhance population of Sikhi by bringing in all these groups who want to make their own Gurus and increase our population.

This is not how Religion survives.

1699 = Well please enlighten me bir'ay as to how Sikhi is supposedly flourishing following your methods which have failed Sikhi in the last 70 years - namely that of making the Panth smaller and more exclusive year on year (whilst all the people declared as non-Sikhs in that time end up within the Hindutva fold). Forget about survival ... the onslaught of female infanticide, drugs, illiteracy, cancer, biraderi, alcohol and povery points towards annihilation if we don't step up to the challenges right now and address them well in advance of the 2021 Punjab census.

People who come into Sikhi should leave their past behind. They get a new lease of life when they come into Sikhi.

1699 = Agreed and that's why it is vital we kill off all vestiges of biraderi discrimination and matrimonial apartheid and biraderi-based golaks remaining within the mindsets of rotten people who proclaim themselves to be a part of the Panth.

They should leave their other Gurus

1699 = The hundreds of millions of sehajdhari non-Punjabi Sikhs will of course do that in time as new members of the Khalsa Panth but such a scenario won't happen overnight without groundwork and by ostracising similar demographic communities in Punjab itself, as opposed to building bridges with them as fellow members of the Sikh Panth.

All the power to leatherworkers in their new religion. I actually admire that they had guts to make their own religion and chose their path and respect them for that.

1699 = Your words literally match word for word verbatim Hindutva and RSS speeches given in support of Dera Ballan. Bear in mind that the majority of those of leatherworking ancestry in Punjab are in fact Sikhs. It is Dera Ballan and our Hindutva opponents who want to falsely claim that all those of the said demographic support their apartheid ideology.

They have been tortured through centuries by everybody.

1699 = Dera Ballan bosses live in better kothi's than you or I can dream of living in. They have only been tortured by not enough millions in their accounts from their Hindutva paymasters.

They have their own book.

1699 = Written by dubious RSS academics in the 21st century.

I say again, good riddance from them

1699 = Agreed in respect of the rich Dera Ballan Hindutva stooges but we should fight tooth and nail to ensure no exodus of 5 million decent Sikhs into Hindutva's welcoming arms as a result of Dera Ballan's pro-apartheid ideology which is ably assisted by those who believe in separate biraderi's, Gurughars and matrominial apartheid whilst claiming to be mainstream Sikhs (in opposition to Gurmat). Dera Ballan are causing enough strife throwing out Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj out of Gurdwara's and converting the said Gurdwara's into new Hindutva apartheid-Mandirs so your point about avoiding strife does not hold up to scrutiny.

1699 = It's simple, either we want to be a powerless minority in Punjab by 2021 unable to defend ourselves from the ongoing silent Genocide or we grow the Panth by any means necassary so that we can do Sarbat da Bhala on a global scale by preventing Genocides, assisting Earthquake victims, assisting Ebola victims, malnutrition victims and so on as the Khalsa Panth was created to do.

1699 = I urge you bir'ay to spread awareness of Dera Ballan tactics by being part of the solution to ensure that Dera Ballan are the minority rather than Sikhs becoming the minority in Punjab by 2021. To that end we need you and all forum members to fight biraderi discrimination, matrimonial apartheid and depraved biraderi-based gloak-focussed committee's to ensure only one single United Gurdwara in every pind in Punjab as soon as possible prior to the 2021 Punjab census. It won't happen in Punjab if youth like ourselves cannot force first force mergers of Gurdwara's in the West and stop the matrimonial apartheid and disgusting and depraved biraderi discrimination virus that even some of our own younger generation is infected by. Join with the fight as Guru Sahib commands us to do Tari Ji.

[SheikhYoBooty]

^^ Tari Kumar why don't u use your real Hindu name?

Everybody knows u hate Sikhi + u ain't no Singh but are just a regular Hindu troll

You have been exposed as a Hindu troll on this site many times before but u dissing Sant Ji totally exposed u.

But still u keep on pretending to be all religious by subliminally dissing Sikhs and Sikhi with your continual bs.

Is Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale Alive Or Shaheed?

Posted by tarisingh on 2nd June 2015

WHAT'S HAPPENING?

Sant Ji died while he tried to run away from Indian Army shooters who were also Singhs.

He was then challenged but when Sant Maharaj Ji kept running showing them his back, Army shot him in his back.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/77118-is-sant-jarnail-singh-bhindranwale-alive-or-shaheed/page-9

[KhoonKaBadlaKhoon]

^^ Tari Kumar why don't u use your real Hindu name?

Everybody knows u hate Sikhi + u ain't no Singh but are just a regular Hindu troll

You have been exposed as a Hindu troll on this site many times before but u dissing Sant Ji totally exposed u.

But still u keep on pretending to be all religious by subliminally dissing Sikhs and Sikhi with your continual bs.

I didn't see anything bad about what he said here, brother, but then again it is quite late and my eyes are closed :biggrin2: where did he insult Sant Bhindranwala?