do uk ramgharia gurdwaras disrespect langar maryada and treat it as a restaurant, is their use of ramgharia label a scam?

[ipledgeblue]

In the uk we have Ramgharia gurdwaras, in some places ther are called Ramgharia sabha!

However, I think most gurdwaras and even sikhs calling themselves "Ramgharia" are scamming us as they have weak or no connections to Ramgharia misl, and are just using the fact that they are tarkhans they can use the Ramgharia term because Jassa Singh Ramgharia was from tarkhan background. Please prove me wrong!

 

Also, I have been observing gurdwaras since I was young. I remember when I was a child in the 80s and 90s, Singh Sabha gurdwaras still allowed shoes and langar was eaten on tables, in the times when the adults used to work all the time, doing double shifts etc. However in the 2000s we can see a change in Singh Sabha gurdwaras as well as some other gurdwaras, where shoes are no longer allowed, and we have a lot of space to sit on the floor and do pangat in langar. 

It's really strange to see so many tables in gurdwaras after seeing langar done exclusivily on the floor gurdwaras in Panjab and India. Just look at Harimandir Sahib, 4 takht, and many other gurdwaras back home.

Now, across London, Slough and Berkshire, midlands, I have noticed Ramgharia gurdwaras allow shoes into langar and have little or no accommodation for sitting on the floor. It is bizarre to see in Ramgharia gurdwaras, the sangat coming from doing sangat or matha tek in divan hall, and then putting on their shoes to go to langar. Like we are going to a restaurant or something! What is this, is it some kind of kenya/east africa sikh colonial army era tradition to keep doing this, even after the other gurdwaras have moved back to giving satkar and respect for langar maryada?

Then we come to the scam, in the Ramgharia gurdwaras, there seems to be more links to East Africa sikhs than Ramgharia misl. There are more trim Singhs with Kenya paghs on Ramgharia gurdwara committees compared to more sabat surat Singhs on Singh sabha committees, from my observations in these England regions. You will find more kenya pagh and trim or fixo darhi, than bana walay Singh in these gurdwaras, again the Ramgharia label is scamming us, as Ramgharia is used for sabat soorat Singhs from the misl, especially those tuned to bana (and open beard is part of bana). Also, I have listened to Rehraas Sahib in some Ramgharia gurdwaras, and they read the disfigured bhasauria SGPC style of Chaupai Sahib (such as the way performed at Harimandir Sahib the past 100 years), skipping arril and the last lines of kabyo baach benti, which makes them more like a Singh Sabha gurdwara and far removed from being Ramgharia due to having similar disrespect towarda bani as Singh sabha gurdwaras, as Ramgharia misl would respect dasam bani and read the full kabyo baach benti.

So the langar thing is bizarre, and now I think of it it's disrespectful. And the use of Ramgharia sikhs and Ramgharia gurdwaras term is a scam as they are anything but, as there is so much disrespect to be associated with the practices of Ramgharia misl! Even the fact they celebrate Maharaja Jassa Singh Ramgharia's birthday doesn't allow them any forgiveness or courtesy! This goes double for the Slough Ramgharia Singh Sabha, as they have a statue of Jassa Singh Ramgharia, and yet are their actions related to actual Ramgharia?

Yeh, let's not fall for the scam! and sikhs that are sangat in those gurdwaras, really need to step up and get in those committees and change things for chardi kala! We need to see more chardikala Singhs running things, not trim Singhs and fixo Singhs!

[Dsinghd]

Is it the end of SGPC? I mean there’s one in Punjab, one in Haryana and Delhi. 
Recently Hazur Sahib removed 2 members of it.

It was a British creation in the 1920s.

[realist17]

It's not even about religion anymore. Most of us are trying to survive out here in the West. 

Myself dont care for Sikhi as much as I use to. Everything is in waheguru ji's hand whether or we will survive in the coming years.

 

[ChardikalaUK]

They could offer both floor and table seating. With today's western lifestyle people are less flexible and may find it hard to eat on the floor. 

Say what you will about the fixo and trim Singhs, there are still far more turbaned Sikhs in a Ramgarhia Gurdwara sangat than a Singh Sabha one. 

The majority of Ramgarhias came from Africa, I'm one of the few whose parents both came from India. The Africa influence is big amongst them, even their offspring. I've seen several wear Kenya wristbands, something I find very strange as they were pretty much kicked out of there. They also like to go on about Makindu Gurdwara like it is equivalent to Harmandir Sahib and Anandpur Sahib! If I was ever kicked out of the UK you wouldn't see me wearing the Union Jack. 

Anyway the majority of the youngsters in Slough are abandoning both Ramgarhia and Singh Sabha and are going to Guru Maneyo Granth instead. 

[v.singh]

Technically the fixo singhs aren’t doing a bajar kurehth, and some have a very high avastha, especially from the older generation 

[ipledgeblue]

On 2/27/2024 at 7:21 PM, Dsinghd said:

Is it the end of SGPC? I mean there’s one in Punjab, one in Haryana and Delhi. 
Recently Hazur Sahib removed 2 members of it.

It was a British creation in the 1920s.

no, SGPC is in Panjab. In Pakistan, Haryana and Delhi they have their own committees, not sgpc. But generally, SGPC still controls the rehit maryada of Singh sabha related gurdwaras all over the world.

18 hours ago, ChardikalaUK said:

They could offer both floor and table seating. With today's western lifestyle people are less flexible and may find it hard to eat on the floor. 

Say what you will about the fixo and trim Singhs, there are still far more turbaned Sikhs in a Ramgarhia Gurdwara sangat than a Singh Sabha one. 

The majority of Ramgarhias came from Africa, I'm one of the few whose parents both came from India. The Africa influence is big amongst them, even their offspring. I've seen several wear Kenya wristbands, something I find very strange as they were pretty much kicked out of there. They also like to go on about Makindu Gurdwara like it is equivalent to Harmandir Sahib and Anandpur Sahib! If I was ever kicked out of the UK you wouldn't see me wearing the Union Jack. 

Anyway the majority of the youngsters in Slough are abandoning both Ramgarhia and Singh Sabha and are going to Guru Maneyo Granth instead. 

That's the point, the influence is East African, so what is the Ramgharia label there for, if no one is going to try to be an actual Ramgharia misl Singh?

Please explain the reason why so many East africa sikhs are attracted towards sikh groups such as PKMC (the jathebandi of Guru Maneyo Granth gurdwara), Naamdharis and their own home grown Nishkam Sewak jatha, as well some other Sants and groups?

I do feel Guru Maneyo Granth gurdwara sikhs are chardi kala, and spread a lot sikhi knowledge, promote simran,  do a lot of positive stuff for sikh children. I can understand why Singh Sabha Slough youth are attracted to GMG because PKMC seems an offshoot of the AKJ style sikhi many of their families follow.  However some things worry me, like the cult following of Bhai Ajit Singh, which I guess is like following a Sant but something is nagging me. Also the type of simran he makes the sangat do on Sundays, it's not the right kind of sehaj awastha and seems full of krodh, I get a krodhi vibe from him as well and he seems to mispronounce bani often as I have seen him do on some Youtube videos from Singh Sabha Southall, and that is a red flag!!!  One good thing is they do promote bana, even though they don't understand the maryada of not wearing a pajama with your bana =D

Also when I used to work on Bath Road Slough, I used to visit Guru Maneyo Granth gurdwara and there was someone doing simran usually. However they were pronouncing Waheguru in a weird way, and I just want to pronounce Waheguru normally such as the pronunciation in Bhai Gurdas ji Vaaran . Another positive, I stayed for Sodar Rehras once and granthi read full kabyo baach benti Chaupai. No idea if this is regular, but I hope so. I have been to Singh Sabha and Ramgharia gurdwaras, and they just do the silly Chaupai Sahib kabyo baach benti cutoff during Rehras.

12 hours ago, v.singh said:

Technically the fixo singhs aren’t doing a bajar kurehth, and some have a very high avastha, especially from the older generation 

no, fixo isn't bajjar kurahit, but it is against puraatan maryada and wouldn't be allowed in Ramgharia misl. Their "high" awastha is still not at the level of an asli Ramgharia Singh, and therein lies the problem with using the label across gurdwaras in the uk (Is this Ramgharia gurdwara label use outside uk anywhere as well?). Basically, what I am saying is to the sangat is "you talk the talk, now walk the walk"

The worst thing that comes out of this is, tk sikhs or east africa sikhs who call themselves Ramgharia with a trim beard or haircut. I know a haircut sikh from East Africa background, I think his grandpa was a rich sikh (unsure if he was a Singh) in Kenya, who owned a steelworks. And the grandson said he himself is Ramgharia. Is said no you're not, Ramgharia is a label for misl Singhs who keep their kesh and wear bana. He goes Ramgharia gurdwara every sunday, but I don't think this makes him a misl member lol. Worse, some years ago, this person also told me I should trim my beard to look more presentable, we can't have people like this call themselves Ramgharia? I think it also gave me an insight into where the trim Singh mentality comes from. I think there's a mentality of choosing presentability over sikhi - to fixo or trim the bread and wear a turban like a hat, to please the gora. Most of our ancestors are guilty of trying to please the gora, no matter if we stayed in Panjab, or migrated to Africa or uk.

Another incident, when I was younger and trying to learn turban, a tk Uncle close to my family (I don't think he was/is East Africa sikh, but many tk sikh families in uk are influenced by east africa sikhs) gave me a starched ready made turban. So this is another issue that is against maryada, to make your turban ready made and wear it like a hat. We do have this problem in Panjab as well, but it's not visible like it is in East Africa sikhs, and perhaps Afghan sikhs are guilty of this too?

[realist17]

Was curious what's with the name "ipledgeblue"? Are you a popo?

[ipledgeblue]

2 hours ago, realist17 said:

Was curious what's with the name "ipledgeblue"? Are you a popo?

like i pledge orange, but I pledge blue, the colour of khalsa

[v.singh]

7 hours ago, ipledgeblue said:

no, SGPC is in Panjab. In Pakistan, Haryana and Delhi they have their own committees, not sgpc. But generally, SGPC still controls the rehit maryada of Singh sabha related gurdwaras all over the world.

That's the point, the influence is East African, so what is the Ramgharia label there for, if no one is going to try to be an actual Ramgharia misl Singh?

Please explain the reason why so many East africa sikhs are attracted towards sikh groups such as PKMC (the jathebandi of Guru Maneyo Granth gurdwara), Naamdharis and their own home grown Nishkam Sewak jatha, as well some other Sants and groups?

I do feel Guru Maneyo Granth gurdwara sikhs are chardi kala, and spread a lot sikhi knowledge, promote simran,  do a lot of positive stuff for sikh children. I can understand why Singh Sabha Slough youth are attracted to GMG because PKMC seems an offshoot of the AKJ style sikhi many of their families follow.  However some things worry me, like the cult following of Bhai Ajit Singh, which I guess is like following a Sant but something is nagging me. Also the type of simran he makes the sangat do on Sundays, it's not the right kind of sehaj awastha and seems full of krodh, I get a krodhi vibe from him as well and he seems to mispronounce bani often as I have seen him do on some Youtube videos from Singh Sabha Southall, and that is a red flag!!!  One good thing is they do promote bana, even though they don't understand the maryada of not wearing a pajama with your bana =D

Also when I used to work on Bath Road Slough, I used to visit Guru Maneyo Granth gurdwara and there was someone doing simran usually. However they were pronouncing Waheguru in a weird way, and I just want to pronounce Waheguru normally such as the pronunciation in Bhai Gurdas ji Vaaran . Another positive, I stayed for Sodar Rehras once and granthi read full kabyo baach benti Chaupai. No idea if this is regular, but I hope so. I have been to Singh Sabha and Ramgharia gurdwaras, and they just do the silly Chaupai Sahib kabyo baach benti cutoff during Rehras.

no, fixo isn't bajjar kurahit, but it is against puraatan maryada and wouldn't be allowed in Ramgharia misl. Their "high" awastha is still not at the level of an asli Ramgharia Singh, and therein lies the problem with using the label across gurdwaras in the uk (Is this Ramgharia gurdwara label use outside uk anywhere as well?). Basically, what I am saying is to the sangat is "you talk the talk, now walk the walk"

The worst thing that comes out of this is, tk sikhs or east africa sikhs who call themselves Ramgharia with a trim beard or haircut. I know a haircut sikh from East Africa background, I think his grandpa was a rich sikh (unsure if he was a Singh) in Kenya, who owned a steelworks. And the grandson said he himself is Ramgharia. Is said no you're not, Ramgharia is a label for misl Singhs who keep their kesh and wear bana. He goes Ramgharia gurdwara every sunday, but I don't think this makes him a misl member lol. Worse, some years ago, this person also told me I should trim my beard to look more presentable, we can't have people like this call themselves Ramgharia? I think it also gave me an insight into where the trim Singh mentality comes from. I think there's a mentality of choosing presentability over sikhi - to fixo or trim the bread and wear a turban like a hat, to please the gora. Most of our ancestors are guilty of trying to please the gora, no matter if we stayed in Panjab, or migrated to Africa or uk.

Another incident, when I was younger and trying to learn turban, a tk Uncle close to my family (I don't think he was/is East Africa sikh, but many tk sikh families in uk are influenced by east africa sikhs) gave me a starched ready made turban. So this is another issue that is against maryada, to make your turban ready made and wear it like a hat. We do have this problem in Panjab as well, but it's not visible like it is in East Africa sikhs, and perhaps Afghan sikhs are guilty of this too?

In an ideal world, Ramgharia gurdwaras would follow Dal Panth maryada. In reality it has become synonymous with the sub caste tharkhan.  

[realist17]

2 hours ago, ipledgeblue said:

like i pledge orange, but I pledge blue, the colour of khalsa