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JOINT Press Release and Sangat Update by Satkaar Sevadaars and RST Birmingham Birmingham, UK - 13 January 2011 RAMGARHIA SIKH TEMPLE, BIRMINGHAM AGREES TO STOP MEAT AND ALCOHOL PARTIES AT HALL Peaceful rally on Saturday 15 January 2011 is cancelled though dialogue to continue in future Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Further to our previous Sangat Update on 4 January 2011, Satkaar Sevadaars and the Ramgarhia Sikh Temple (RST) Birmingham committee held an amicable and open meeting on Saturday 8 January 2011. Satkaar Sevadaars thanked the RST committee for the bold and positive step that they had taken to stop meat and alcohol parties at the Maharaja Jassa Singh Ramgarhia Hall (which had previously been running for 20 or so years) and for confirmation of their intention over the longer-term to comply with Akal Takhat Sahib's 2006 Sandesh. Accordingly, the peaceful rally planned on Saturday 15 January 2011 is cancelled. The RST committee confirmed that no future bookings will be taken for meat and alcohol parties. In relation to the existing parties that have been booked, the relevant families will be provided with the option of having a vegetarian, non-alcoholic party at the hall or having the party entirely cancelled with a refund of the initial deposit. The existing bookings run until November, though since there is an immediate ban on meat and alcohol, it is expected that most, if not all, such parties will be cancelled (as has been the case with the most immediate parties). Upon request by the RST committee, Satkaar Sevadaars will also be willing to have any discussion required with an affected family. The only outstanding point is the situation where individuals may wish to make a new booking for the hall to be used for family parties which are vegetarian and non-alcoholic in nature, but do permit dancing. The RST committee explained that such instances are likely to be few and far between. Satkaar Sevadaars had requested that these also be stopped in accordance with the 2006 Sandesh, but the RST committee has said it is not yet in a position to agree to this due to the local situation. Satkaar Sevadaars and the RST committee have agreed that they will continue to work together on this and to maintain an ongoing dialogue to reach the Gurmat-oriented solution. Satkaar Sevadaars also made a humble request to the RST committee for their further assistance in the wider Satkaar Campaign, and there was a discussion on other issues on which the Khalsa Panth needs to unite in order to further propagate Gurmat Maryada in all UK Gurdwaras. The RST committee and Satkaar Sevadaars discussed how they could positively work together on these issues. The RST committee also demonstrated the many positive initiatives they undertake at the Gurdwara to ensure that Gurmat flourishes in future Sikh generations, and they thanked the Satkaar Campaign for their offer to hold Gurmat Camps at the Gurdwara. There was also a frank discussion so as to clear any misunderstandings which may have arisen. The RST committee and Satkaar Sevadaars were also in full agreement that no individuals should ever make threatening phone calls or send abusive text messages, or knowingly spread false allegations (such as the President and General Secretary of the RST committee being alcoholics) on forums/public websites in the name of promoting Gurmat Maryada. Satkaar Sevadaars explained that to the extent that any individuals have taken such actions, they could not be held responsible for their actions, and once again, Satkaar Sevadaars requests individuals to refrain from such unacceptable behaviour. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

lol lol lol :lol: sorry for the rudeness..but I really did burst into laughter. on the serious note. No, its not what you need its a uni started by a dodgy cult(Tarmala) .

Sadh sangat jeeo, with Guru Sahibs kirpa Bhagat Jaswant Singh Jee has finished the seva of doing the vishraams for all of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee! this seva took many year to do, so please spread the word to your friends, cousins, local sikh comunities, santhya teachers and gurmat skools etc. about it! you can view the pdf of it on this link Gursevak.com (FYI: this is not the final file so thats why it has been copyrighted) please share your comments on this beautiful seva!

Check out ShasterKhajana.com, there is a wealth of knowledge and also users who have made their own shaster and training aids

I agree with you Bhai Sahib Jee, it may be hard to get rid of it, but I believe this letter above will emphasise and try to convince Apple this app is unacceptable. If it needs to be done I will search there terms and conditions to try and find where they state offensive material will not be permitted etc. however I believe Sikh shouldn't coward out on this issue, and think just ignore. I have strong belief it will be removed just like the pressure Sikhs have put on commitee's in UK to remove what looked like the impossible (meat and alcohol from party halls)

*edit* unproductive post

After 1984, there were resolutions passed in most Gurdwaras, which are still enforced in a lot of the Gurdwaras, that those people that perform in clubs etc, will not be allowed on the Gurdwars stage. This was needed especially for weddings, where such guests where then asked to sing at the Gurdwara. It's a pity that the yoputh of today never mind keeping to this resolution, have in fact broken it themselves. Aplogies not all youths but some.

Farmer Suicide:

Stay clear of cults such as tarmala. My chacha ji told me a story of a bibi who got murdered by them for trying to leave.

Really heartwarming news! And all with none of the distasteful fracas that typically characterises disagreements between apnay. Well done Satkaar guys, hopefully this is a template for future discourse and progression in the UK. It does show how polite exchanges can achieve more than the usual aggressive, threatening 'knocking turbans off heads' type jaloos.

Wonderful outcome. Well done to all involved (well, those who contributed constructively anyway).

The following comment from one of the youtube users about this guys somes it all up.

Theres no pictures which are above Sachkhand, cos u cant go above Sachkhand in the Gurdwara Sahib. You guys sit here on a forum, and make up things without knowing facts etc. Like i said before to everyone, stop making up things. Additionally, we all correctly say Weddings should be in a Gurdwara, and so forth... and in those pictures theyve gone an extra step and the photos are taken at a Gurdwara, rather than going to a specialist studio, etc... isnt that a good thing? Additionally, u guys keep bringing up that this Swamis been accused of using human bones in his medicine.... you may have forgotten, but those cases were brought against him by a group of people whom were getting jealous of his popularity... and Swami was cleared of those charges. Im not a fan of swami or yoga.. but im just saying you people look at one side of the story, and make up fibs, rather than look at facts. Additionally may I add, I dont think Swami promotes RSS, ive never heard or seen this, a lot of my hindu mates watch him, and they say he doesnt say anything about the RSS/Hindutva/Arya Samaj. In fact, he has said good things about our Guru Sahibs in the past. Just because he has some link with Arya Samaj, why does it automactially make him bad? I know the founder of Arya Samaj, Dayanand said things about our Gurus which were incorrect.... but then does it mean we should hate everyone whom is linked to Arya Samaj? Mohammed (PBUH) of Islam said that Islam is the only way, and all other religions are wrong- despite the founder of Islam having made these kinds of comments, our Guru Sahib Jis never hated Muslims. I can think of many Muslims whom were great friends of Guru Ji, i.e., Saint Mian Mir, Pir Budhu Shah, Bhai Mardana, etc. Thus if Dayanand the founder of Arya Samaj said bad things.... that automatically allows us to hate all those whom have any links with him? I think Guru Ji wouldnt have ever thought like that, as I have demonstrated above. I was also surprised by the news article that sikhsangat.org published againt the Gurdwara Sahib which once again was full of made up things.

I personally don't see anything wrong with the photographs. I don't even see this as being a major beadbi of guru ji or the premises. Ok, it's in close vacinity to Guru ji's saroops, but i don't see any wrong intentions or offence. Yes the building is smart, but that is something we as a Sikh community should be proud off. That's my opinion. I see this thread and other similar threads as just nitt picking faults in Gurdwara Karamsar.

WJKK WJKF, KharkooSingh, I am no defender. I seriously couldn't give a crap wot u really think. If you think you are a real defender I would like to see you come to the Gurdwara with these pictures to discuss with the ppl there. Letz see you do some defending for the panth!!!! No excuses please!!! KharkooSingh, who said I'm passing the blame. All I'm suggesting is that if you have a problem u need to take it up with the Gurdwara. No point sitting about and talking about it on the forum wasting time. All you guys seem to do is gossip and take no action. So why is that no one has approached the Gurdwara then? Oh a quick note KharkooSingh you also need to get your facts right about the Sach Khand they are not standing above the Sach Khand. I have nothing more to add to this topic, i have no more time to waste. Jaz Singh

WJKK WJKF, I totally agree with Sat1176 and that the guys on this website are attacking Gurdwara Karamsar for some reason. How can you say that the Gurdwara is behind these pictures? You know wot the photographers are like. I’m sure the Gurdwara doesn’t even know about these pictures. I'm sure Ikki will be going to the Gurdwara to discuss this with them. Am I right in saying this Ikki? Another point I would like to make. If these pictures are wrong I believe all photography should be banned while the wedding is happening because most of the time the photographers are doing beadbi any way. Also, if you think these pictures are bad you should try and attend some of the other weddings within East London Gurdwara’s (mentioning no Gurdwara names) they actually take pictures like these in the main Gurdwara hall with Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji present. So therefore, this is nothing compared to other Gurdwara’s wouldn’t you say? Also a note to the author of this thread: Ikki, if you have a problem with Karamsar which you do reading your previous posts, why don't you simply print off the pictures and take them to the Gurdwara and discuss it with the ppl there. I’m sure they are willing to listen to your views. Wot I have noticed about you Ikki is that your all mouth and no action. You’re so quick to judge. If the Gurdwara is doing wrong then why not just simply talk to the Gurdwara instead off spreading false rumours. You don't even know where the Such Khand is? Get your facts right. You’re quick to shoot ppl in the foot but have no real answer to the solutions. How would you like you it if you’re wedding pictures were plastered all over the internet. Did you even ask permission of the couple who these pictures belong too? The answer is most properly NO. So a humble request please remove these pictures and speak with the Gurdwara if you have the bottle!!!! Jaz Singh

I think you have got your facts wrong. The photos were not taken above the Sachkhand but beside it. The Sachkhand is on the top floor. You can't get above it because there is a dome on the top of the room. Feel free to check out the photos on http://www.karamsar.co.uk/ to see what i mean. It's quite clear that you guys have decided to make Gurdwara Karamsar your next target. Knock yourself out. How pathetic!

To the above people posting various comments. Kharkoo Singh said Baba Ji doesnt promote Amrit/Rehat... erm Baba Ji promotes Amrit in nearly every divan and mentions how important rehat is all the time... so i dunno where u got that from. If you go talk to Baba Ji they always tell everyone how important Simran and Seva is. Baba Ji is full of respect for everyone... just go and talk to them, you guys are drawing conclusions without knowing Baba Ji or anything.. if u have a problem with the Gurdwara discuss it with them, rather than making things up on a forum. I promise to you, that they'l be more helpful than most other Gurdwaras. And the above comments about the mercedes and petrol money etc were uncalled for. So what if they have a mercedes? most of u guys and ur families drive around in expensive cars? You guys portray urselfs as model Gursikhs on this forum, why dont u give up ur career/educations/cars, if you thinks its so bad for a Baba to have a car. Multiple Akhand Paths are done at many Gurdwaras, especially the Sant ones... i disagree with them personally, but why are you guys singling out Karamsar? Regarding names being read in the ardaas, the only names read out are whomevers Akhand Path it is or langer etc..... whereas most other Gurdwaras you can pay money to have ur names said in the ardaas- Karamsar doesnt do that. And the Gurdwara isnt a showpeice, as some1 above said- have some respect! Theres Kirtan and Katha everyday every evening for a few hours , Asa Di War is done in the mornings..... theres more kirtan and katha at Karamsar than most other Gurdwaras I go too. And some1 said photos were taken of the AKJi Kirtan last year.... erm if u go to www.akji.org, you may notice they take photos at every single of there kirtan darbars. Also go to ektaone.com, and look at all the photos taken of the various kirtan darbars.... why are u singling out Karamsar for allowing photos to be taken, when almost every kirtan darbar nowadays has photographs taken? So you guys need to get your facts straight, rather than making up things, or saying "i heard this from so and so".

You say theres "no discipline", yet the Gianis whom checked out girls were kicked out. So clearly the Gurdwara takes these things seriously, and took action... whereas most other Gurdwaras wouldnt do anything about it!! So ur statement is invalid. I know of a lot of other guys&girls in other Jathas/Gurdwaras whom you could also call perverts, yet they are allowed to go and do kirtan, etc. Plus if Baba Ji knew the guys were perverts, im sure Baba Ji would have a word with them.

WJKK WJKF, TavPrasad Singh u mentioned that Karamsar is trying to be the number one gurdwara in the area. let me tell u something it's not trying to be BUT is the number one for the reason becoz there is peace in that place of worship. Why haven't you ever thought why do the sangat go there? Please answer. Secondly, the other gurdwara's around the area are just jealous of Karamsar becoz majority of the sangat finds peace there and the other Gurdwars are just worried about their bank balances. If you have any problems please just go to the gurdwara instead of stating poision in the mind of the sangat. Thirdly, ur stupid remarks regarding publicity about the Gurdwara, trust me that this Gurdwara needs no publicity. Anyway if Micheal Jackson, David Beckham and Amitabh Bachan or even Swami Ji wanted to come to the Gurdwara who are we to stop them plus how would this be a publicity stunt. Please explain. Jaz Singh

WJKK WJKF, I have spoken with someone who attended and have advised that the Microphone was not turned off when the path was happening, the mircophone was not turned on. So what u r clearly saying is that when an Akhand Path is happening and when the secetary of any Gurdwara turns the mic off to do a speach to inform the sangat this is wrong. Therefore, ur comments don't make any sense. As far as I am concerned the comment that you have made should be pointed to every Gurdwara not just at Karmasar because the same has happened at every other Gurdwara that Swami Ji has visited. That picture doesn't prove anything. What does prove? No one is askin you to do matha tek. If you are not comfortable then don't it. But you cannot force ur opinion upon other ppl. Infact that person is not doing matha tek she touching the feet like we would to our mother, father our anyone older than us. Jaz Singh

WJKK WJKF, Look how can this be a PR attempt from Karmsar! Did Karamsar personally invite Ramdev Ji? I don't think so, he wanted to pay his respects and to see the new gurdwara for himself, infact he has been to other Gurdwara's in the area plus been to Madars and mosques. Anyway he only came for about 15mins! In sikhi everyone is welcome to the Gurdwara weather it be swami ji or not. Some ppl need to go back to the basics of sikhi and learn the true fundmentals instead of picking on ppl. At least he is doing some good which is more than us. All we seem to do is moan about ppl. Karmsar has done nothing wrong, some people on Sikhsangat have no idea and without facts and evidence are misleading the sangat. Jaz Singh

I must say that there's a big time lack of parchar at this Gurdwara. As this is a Gurdwara linked to Rara Sahib and the fact that there is supposed to be a mahapursh present, there is a big expectation from this Gurdwara. There's a big time shortage of keshdharis at this Gurdwara and most of the sangat are mona or beard trimmers. Most of the few so called amritdhari sewadars don't even bother wearing their kirpans anymore. This gurdwara needs a revolution, the sangat seem meek and not focused on sikhi but more on manmat stuff like tieing rakhris around the nishan sahib or Guruji.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Gurdwara Karamsar is not what it used to be. Give me that old labour hall that stood in it's place a few years ago. I have had some great personal experieces within this Gurdwara and even took Amrit from the Punj Pyaray at this Gurdwara. But todays "mahapursh's" are not what they used to be. They survive by living of previous mahapursh's name and building a fancy building. Like someone said above, it's what activities take place inside that counts. And I am sorry to say, they are not following the vichars of Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji I really wish Gurdwara Karamsar focuses back to what it origanally was when it first opened in Ilford. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Below are my observations of Vaisakhi at the new & improved "Karamsar" Gurdwara Sahib. 1) There was no Chaupai Sahib or Anand Sahib or any Gurbani when putting the Nishan Sahib up. Instead the Dhol Achedamy turned up to bang the dhol. A nice happy bhangra atmosphere was created. 2) When the 2 Sri Akhand Paths Sahibs were started for Vaisakhi, the local MP Mike Gapes turned up late and the microphone of the Granthi was switched off so that Mike Gapes could give a speech to the Sikh community over the Gurbani. Who gave Mike Gapes the right to speak over Guru Ji. 3) The local MP and councillers were served langar in a separate room with tables and chairs away from the pangat. Even Akhbar Badshah had langer in Pangat when visting Sri Guru Amar Das Sahib Ji, it's our maryada. 4) Sant Partap Singh was doing Dharna/Katha inside the Gurdwara whilst fireworks were being let off on the roof of the Gurdwara. Guru Ji's Parkash was still there, you could not even hear the kirtan/katha in the Diwan Sahib. 90 % of the sangat were standing outside watching rockets go up in the air, rather than sit in the sangat of Guru Ji. The focus has been lost in Karamsar Gurdwara, Babaji (Sant Partap Singh) is not what he used to be. All he seems to do now a days is dish out celebrations and heros chocolates out to the sangat. There has been no Amrit Sanchar in the Gurdwara for over a year, Vasakhi was a prime opportunity to have one. Karamsar is slowly becoming a "Santa Da Dera" and I hope the Babaji begins to refocus what was once a great institute in Ilford. GurFateh!

Well done Gurdwara Karamsar for abusing the stage once again :D If it's not naamdharis it's arya samajis..... You know what Gurdwara Karamsar UK, you should feel lucky that you have Guru Maharaj's Darshan, but hey the "master of yoga" has blessed your lives now... another good opportunity for pictures and a fresh group of new supporters. Anyhow IF there was a Sri Akhand Path Sahib taking place in the Gurdwara Diwan (which does happen @ Karamsar Gurdwara) whilst the Arya Samaji was chatting on stage then you got a lot to answer for! Wah Karamsar wah! We are so proud of you! No I only bow to Guru Granth Sahib Ji... so did Swami Ji he was a guest at the gurdwara. I think you are being narrow minded and judging people just because they are different from their background. I aint going to bother replying to your pathetic responces. Was there an Sri Akhand Path Sahib or Sukhmani Sahib Path taking place when the Swami arrived? Was the microphone switched off when the Shabad was being recited in order for the Swami to speak on the stage microphone? Is the Swamis words greater than GurBani? Does every guest in a Gurdwara have to go straight on stage and talk OVER Shabad, whilst Shabad is being recited? SNAP OUT OF IT! BANI GURU GURU HAI BANI.

Well done!!! Karamsar need as many superstars as possible to make their Gurdwara Number One in the area! Completely pathetic and a huge insult to Baba Isher Singh & Baba Kishen Singh who only taught the world that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is th lifeline for Sikhs. Karamsar has now misled all their Sangat and done a great paap. Well done, but Karamsar is now the Number One Gurdwara in East London! To sustain this position the coming personalities in the following weeks include Micheal Jackson, David Beckham and Amitabh Bachchan!!!

It is a business. How can the secretary afford to be there all the time? I was told that he gets paid. All the other people who are in the front line are getting paid. Most them are seeking benefits and getting cash in hand there. My fathers friend is in the commity he told me he heard Sant Say at some ones programme: 'What do we want from these people' they have not given me no money they are tight. Also it is well known to every one that he likes crusing in his mercedes where is this money from? is this the money from the gholak? He came to my house so many times uninvited? Real sadhu would be busy meditating. I do not see him as a baargi? My grandma goes there she tells me so much stuff it just makes me crazy. Not all can be a saint, it is a despressing path, you have to get rid of all your desires.

Defenders of the Faith!!. Jaz Singh, if only people like you had the same passion for beadbi of Maharaj as you do for defending your local Gurdwaras then the world would be a better place. I suppose we can all pass the buck and say such and such Gurdwara is even worse than us. Passing the blame onto the photographer is such a cop out. You as a devoted member of the sangat of Karamsar should be preventing any beadbi from taking place. Why don't you present the pictures to the Babaji and rely his reaction. Ikki, these pathetic pictures should remain on the forums a reminder of low as a kaum we are. We are willing to use Gurdwaras like a film set in order to produce fancy photographs. We are willing to go on to the roof of the Gurdwara and stand on the sachkhand to get the best pictures. And the committee and sewadars sleep whilst this happens.

AHH. WHAT A JOKE! I AM GOING TO BE AT THE SAMAGAM AT THIS GURDWARA THIS WEEK. I AM GOING TO SPEAK TO THE SEWADARS ABOUT THIS. THESE LAZY COMMITTEES MAKE ME SICK. I AM ANNOYED NOW

I have seen these pictures on another site about weddings, so I dont think permission from the couple is required. The pictures are blatant, there are no false rumours here. The pictures are taken at the sachkhand of Karamsar. There is no answer, Karamsar have sold out to the masses & its time to let the money flood in. This Gurdwara was built as a show piece for the reason that there will be a line of families wanting to have weddings there. And even if the Sachkhand of Maharaj is exploited then so be it. Would SantPartap Singh allow these pictures be taken in his office in the Langar Hall? But who cares about Guruji...he's only the reason why Karamsar exists. The fact that all parts of the Gurdwara are open for Sangat exploitation is a worrying fact. Either the Gurdwara Committee have lost control or then the committee is openly allowing this to happen. Instead of challenging others why not help to address the issue. You seem close to the Gurdwara, why dont you organise a open meeting at Karamsar so we can all come down and discuss. Thats a solution isnt it?

these photos are taken above sachkhand gurdwara karamsar ilford london, this is so wrong. [mod comment - pics removed to proctect indvidual privacy]

Why don't people like Jaz realise this. If karmsar gurdwara is carrying the name of true mahapurashs like Sant Baba Isher Singh then they need to be whiter than white. Otherwise their answerable to the sangat. Blaming other gurdwaras to be worse is not going to help. Karamsar should know better. Look after the gurdwara, make sure no one is abusing the gurdwara. Under "Sant" Partap Singh alot goes on which should not. They may be small to some people and big to others, but they should not be happening especially if he is supposed to be a mahapurakh. Why does he not stop these things? When someone claims to be a mahapurakh, the spotlight falls on them. Do they not realise that people are looking up to them as a represantative of sikh maryada? Their actions affect the people around them and canbring people closer to sikhi or push them away. This could easily become a debate on people claiming to be mahapurakhs or gurdwara karamsar. I've said my bit, I have my own negative and positive experiences of karamsar and "sant" partap singh and would rather keep them to myself.

We'll make sure we get it right next time. We'll ensure that nothing but Gurmat controls the decisions we make. I'm sick of these Indian(Panjab)-resident politicians / leaders who don't give a jot about the people they are supposed to represent. As for them giving a darn about Sikhi, well let's not even go there. I hope we'll get to a point in our history where will be able to make these decisions. At the moment, our people can't even stop drinking alcohol and taking drugs. Nation building in the true spirit of the Khalsa needs to happen in the history of this earth. Sikhi simply can't fade away into the passage of history. EDIT: What exactly have I said that merits a -1? Again, someone riding rough-shod over the forum, polluting threads with venom. Loser.

I hope it won't be built in a public place because most likely (I don't like saying it) it will be disrespected and vandalised by racists. I would prefer it to be next to a Gurudwara (or within the complex). If not then expect to see a newspaper report or a segment on the news where some idiots have daubed some graffiti on it - the same idiots who probably think the memorial is another way of "us taking over". Sadly I don't credit most of the public in the UK with the common sense and knowledge of understanding the intricacies of race and religion. Keep it somewhere where it is accessible but can also be maintained and kept secure. Saying 'near' the National Sikh Heritage Centre is very vague.