Singh132

Khalistani, this will hopefully be my last post on this issue. I'm glad you think that lareedaar is right. Whether someone matha teks to a pad-chhed saroop is up to them. What I've tried to explain is why someone may choose not to. Let me summarise: the pad-chhed saroop is presented as Guru Granth Sahib and is occupying the throne of Satguru jee. It should not be there. BaaNee should be respected, but by putting a pad-chhed saroop on the Takhat is like putting an imposter for Guru Sahib on the throne i.e. something that looks very simmilar but is not the real thing. When Sangat comes, there is a special way we approach Guru Sahib, that we normally wouldn't do for a gutka. If we do everything like normal in the presence of a pad-chhed saroop it is tacitly accepting that it is ok to be there, when it is not. So to treat the pad-chhed saroop the same way you would treat real Satguru jee is somethign some Singhs choose not to do. If you want to, it's fine and no one is forcing you to change. But there is a difference. I've heard the story of a chardee kalaa Singh who went to Bombay Smaagam many years ago. He sat in sangat for every program. At the end, someone came and asked him what he thought of the smaagam. The Singh replied, "It was good, but Satguru jee only came and gave darshan on the night of the ransabaaee". All week pad-chhed saroop had been parkaash, but on the night of the ran sabaaee, lareedar parkash was done. The Singh could tell just by sitting in sangat which was Satguru and which was not. We may not have that ability, but it is a fact that there is a difference. Pad-chhed saroops are manmat . Why are we allowing the products of manmat to be placed on the Takhat of Sree Guru Granth Sahib?? And then why would we be offended if some Singhs object to having it placed on the Takhat? ADMIN NOTE: Just about all sides have discussed this issue -- thankfully in a somewhat polite and rational manner. We understand that sometimes these issues can get into heated debates that in turn only serve to divide rather than unite. We hope that this discussion has furthered the knowledge of the sangat in the issue being discussed. If there are still disagreements, hopefully we can leave this discussion on good terms and with a still open mind - ready to accept and analyze further arguments on either side of this issue. Waheguroo! Network advocates larivaar suroop, and anybody wishing to practice their skills in reading from larivaar bani can visit the appropriate sections of Sikhitothemax and Panthkhalsa.org where such services are provided. Please feel free to add more points, if they are relevant. Please do not drag this issue if what you want to say has already been said. Thank you for your patience and support. - 8

Sorry to hurt your feelings khalistani, but heres the question: if someone took a saroop and re-arranged it so that it's organized by Guru and not Raag, would you want it to be parkaash? Of course every Sikh would bow to it, since it's baaNee, but it's not right to have it parkaash. And it was never right to change it in the first place. The same thing has happened with pad-chhed. Then why do we go about and act as though nothing is wrong? We should demand that lareedaar saroop of Guru Granth Sahib should be parkaash. Pad-chhed is baaNee. But it is NOT the saroop of Guru Granth Sahib that was given gurgaddi by Guru Gobind Singh jee and does not deserve to be parkaash and presented as Sree Guru Granth Sahib. In this way, I still think that pad-chhed is an imposter. I again apologise if I am too harsh, but I dont' think the Panth will see chardee kala until we return the real saroop of Guru Sahib to the gadee.

A simple test for those that think pad-chhed is fine and "bani is bani" so it must be ok: let's say a group of people decide that they want to rearrange Guru Granth Sahib jee in order of Guru Sahib, so they put together all of Guru Nanak Dev jee's baaNee and then Guru Angad..etc. And at the end they put all the bhagats in order of bhagat. Not a thing in the baaNee is changed. Is this ok? Would everyone be fine with doing parkaash of this sarooop? Bani is bani afterall, so why would this be wrong? The obvious answer is that this is MAHA-MANMAT and a big paap. Why? Because it's messing with something Guru Sahib gave us. So then if this is wrong, what makes pad-chhed ok?

Firstly, is Pad-Chhed the Guru? No it is not. Yes, all baaNee is Guru, but would it be ok then to do an amrit sinchaar or anand kaaraj in the hazooree of a nitnem gutka? No, of course not. So the full Saroop of our Satguru jee is lareedaar saroop of Sree Guru Granth Sahib jee. Our Guru is perfect and our intellect is limited and flawed. We as a Panth cannot agree on the pad-chhed of even Satnaam. You will find some gutkas with Sat Naam and others with Satnaam. Ik oankaar sat gurparsaad, or satgurparsaad? Or how about paaNee dhotai utarass khay or utar so khay (in 20th pauRee of Japjee Sahib)? How about Pank jo muh pug nahee chalaai or pankaj moh? Everyone has their own ideas and different pad-chhed saroops do it differently. So clearly one "Guru" is wrong. If it is lareedaar, we use our own "mat" to decide but the Guru is never wrong. If you print it pad-chhed, someone using his own mind broke the words (rightly or wrongly) and the different saroops do not match. So are we making our Guru wrong? 2ndly, by not doing lareedaar parkaash, we have lost so many important rehits. To do paath from lareedaar saroop, you need to know somethign about grammar and meanings. This takes some effort. But if we can be in school for 18 years to get a B.A. degree, why not a couple months to learn how to read our Satguru? Because lareedaar is becoming extinct, hardly anyone knows grammar and meanings anymore. When doing paath from lareedaar, it requires full concentration. Pad-chhed requires very little. As for bowing to pad-chhed saroops. the argument is like this: of course all baaNee should be respected. But the issue here is that pad-chhed saroop is sitting on the Gur-gaddi of Satguru Granth Sahib but it is not Satguru jee. Guru jee is Lareedaar Saroop. Pad-chhed is not what was given gur-gaddi by Guru Gobind Singh jee. So when we go to a darbaar and matha tek, we are math tekking to what is being presented as Guru Sahib. If those that KNOW it's not right to have pad-chhed also join in, they are propogating the belief that pad-chhed is ok and can sit on the Takhat. They know full well that this is NOT right and not Guru Sahib but they still bow and treat it like Guru Sahib. It is like an imposter sitting on the Gur-Gaddi. These Singhs that don't mathha tek feel that pad-chhed as baaNee must be respected, but if it is presented as Guru Sahib, they will not act just as they would if it were Guru Sahib. Imagine some Gurdwara started to do parkaash of a Nitnem Gutka and asked everyone to treat it like Guru Sahib. Yes, no one would have a problem with respecting that gutka, but everyone would say "it's wrong to do parkaash of a gutkaa in the place of Guru Sahib" and ask that it be changed. In the same way, it is wrong to do parkaash of Pad-chhed and it too must be changed. But in the end, it is each person's own choice. Here, I've just tried to explain why certain Singhs won't mattha tek to a pad-chhed saroop.

I don't know about the above story, but in my understanding, and from my reading of baNee, Dharam had 4 feet in Satjug. In Treta, it has 3 feet, in Duaapur, 2 and in Kaljug, only one. There are shabads in baaNee regarding this. So three feet=treta two feet=duaapur.

I myself used to wear a standard punjabi style dastaar. There is definitely a difference between a punjabi style dastaar and a gurmukhi dastaara though. A Gurmukhi dastaaraa does not have pooNee done. It is tied "chiN kay" . Also, it does not have a laR at the back, nor is it ever held in the mouth. If you look at the dastaars worn by the Jathedars of Akal Takhat Sahib and the Granthis, you'll notice they are all Gurmukhi dastaaras and not standard punjabi style dastaars. It is the same with many other Gursikhs like Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh, Bhai Jeevan Singh, etc.

dhoof is an incense stick. Burning it is NOT against gurmat. It provides a nice smell and makes the atmosphere more calm and comfortable. To light it as a religious ritual or something that MUST be done is not according to Gurmat, but if someone likes the smell of dhoof, there is absolutely no harm in lighting it. Mind you, a lot of the cheap dhoof out there has been shown to give off fumes and chemicals that are thought to cause cancer, so make sure you buy good dhoof. For akhand paath sahibs, a lot of Singhs make their own.

I wouldn't get too excited about this saroop being the originl one prepared by Guru Arjan Dev jee. Bhai Kanh Singh Nabha saw it in the early part of the 20th Century and his description of the saroop he saw was very different from the one scholars have seen today. Who knows where that original saroop is? Maybe they've hidden it or maybe they gave it to someone? But a lot of scholars agree that this is not the original Kartarpuri Bir.

here's another

weirdest question (asked by a nervous middle eastern man outside the subway station) "Uhh...is it true that you can only cut your hair once you've killed a muslim?".

<admin-profanity filter activated>! Balak Sena means "Victory to India Children's Army". Back in the day (and who am I fooling, even now), many Sikhs thought India was their own country and were very patriotic. So them joining such a group was pretty natural.

All children have a responsibility to their parents. Amritdhari children still have a responsibility to their manmukh parents. If the parent asks something of the child that is difficult or the child wouldn't normally do, then they should do it. If the parent forbids the child from going to the Gurdwara, it's a bit borderline, I personally would go anyways, but in many situations I guess the best thing would be to obey too. BUT, the line is drawn when the parent asks the gursikh child to violate a principle of Gursikhi. That cannot be accepted in any circumstances. If the parent asks the child to cut his/her hair, or marry a mona, this is NOT possible. A child should be willing to die before violating rehit like that. Our true father is Guru Gobind Singh and if our worldly parents are saying one thing and Guru Sahib another, our allegiance must lie with Guru Sahib. No matter what. Obey your parents, but when there's a difference between what Dashmesh Pita says and what your worldly father says, Dashmesh jee must win.

This is a very good magazine that deserves our support. Sadly, any Sikh magazine that supports the freedom struggle doesnt' last very long. Sikhs generally dont' buy it or subscribe to it and of course there are forces that refuse to see any magazine like this succeed.

The proper hand to wear the kakaar on is the right hand. I know that in the Jatha, the hukam was given during amrit sinchaars to wear it on the right hand specifically (see Bhai Jodh Singh's book). Both hands is best though.

The painting must be inaccurate. According to Khalsa traditions, a kacherra MUST be white. Nihangs will never ever wear a blue kacherra as this is a very disrespectful place to be wearing it. If a nihang catches a "Singh" wearing blue kacherra, he is in serious trouble. Blue is a "shiromani" colour and meant only for head and cholas. A kacherra, even according to old rehitnamas must be only white. The reasons are pretty self explanatory.

Also, when Guru Gobind Singh jee used to hunt, as is written in Bachitar Naatak, the prey was carnivourous and dangerous animals. Examples are bears, tigers, etc. These animals were a threat to the surrounding areas and were hunted. Their meat was certainly not eaten. The example of Guru Gobind Singh jee killing a rabbit in Sree Hazoor Sahib is remarkable just for this reason. The Sikhs saw Guru jee had killed a rabbit i.e a herbivore and were confused since this was not at all common. When they asked Guru jee why he had done this, he showed them that the soul leaving the rabbit was that of Moola Khatri, a Sikh of Guru Nanak who had turned his back on the Guru.

This is an interesting topic. Before I decided to keep bibek, I had stopped eating at langars because I saw how some sevadaars touched karchhees to plates and made things joothaa. The solution is to follow the puraatan maryada: langar was never an "open" seva. Special trained sevaadaars were the ones who did this seva and doing this, no such problems arose. No matter how many signs you put up and not matter what you do, there are always going to be people who don't care and just grab a jug of water and start to serve with unclean hands or touching glasses. Langar was always controlled by special sevaadaars and should continue like this.

That site looks like it was hijacked by the RSS/Hindutva gang. How did this happen???

I don't understand what part of reincarnation seems so hard to believe. I have a question actually: I always ask it and maybe you can reply. A baby is born. It screams a single scream and then dies. Where does it go? Why was it born? It had no purpose in its life so how will it be judged? Does christianity have an answer? Will this baby go to heaven? If so, why? A Sikh can answer very easily that it was based on that soul's karma that it was born as a human and based on its karma that it lived for only so long and to receive this karma it had such a short life. It will be born again. As for violence: Guru Arjan and Guru Tegh Bahadur were the image of non-violence. A Sikh will not use violence unless there is no other option. Not using the sword to defend the meek and defenceless is a much bigger sin. SGGS and Bowing: When we bow, we prostrate before the message and it is a symbol of our internal submission. An idol is that which cannot teach anything. Guru Granth Sahib can teach all divine qualities. At any rate, like everyoen else here, I encourage you to understand the profound nature of Sikhi. Its concept of SachKhand is so much more profound than any heaven. The Guru's teachings are first hand and divine inspiration. There is no legends/mythology there. check out www.whyichosesikhism.com for more information on your doubts. Good luck. www.whyichosesikhism.com

I have followed almost every major "rehit" in out there at some point in my life. I received amrit at an amrit sinchar run according to the SGPC maryada, peshed in Taksal and later on peshed in the Jatha. My understanding is this: we need to understand that rehit is not of any group. Rehit has to be Khalsa Rehit. My allegiance is not with any group, it's to rehit. The "Akal Takhat" maryada strikes me as being a document which tries its best to bring about unity among different jathas and ideologies. They are the only maryada which claims only 3 banis are mandatory and give lenience on ragmala, keskee, meat, etc. I think that this rehit is a bare minimum and almost every jathebandi meets this as a standard. But personally I didn't find it to be bringing me much spritual peace or upliftment. After a lot of research, I came to certain conclusions: naam was the essence of amrit and the rehit which focussed on naam and totally explained it was important. I also came to the conclusion after research that keski was a rehit for men and women. I believe in bibek as well. The rehit which seems most authentic to me seems to be the one preserved in the Jatha (AKJ). People might try to say this is a new group, and as a formal "jatha" it is fairly new (1910 and onwards), but the rehit they keep is not new. It is the most puraatan one that has been passed down through the generations. This is why they focus so much on sarbloh and especially on naam. All I understand is this: naam is the most important part of being amritdhari. And Jatha is the only group which focuses on it so much and teaches the person how to meditate on it. But like I said before, my alle giance is to rehit. It just happens that I feel the Jatha is the group which has the most authentic version of it.