ghorandhar

People who support Iqbal Singh need to remember his kartoota with his wife and the tamasha he has created. If you want to support such a person then good Luck. Iqbal Singh has no precedent to make such decisions, yet people overlook this. By abusing his power in this way, would it not be fair to say they have abused their power in other matters of maryada? The only precedent I can find is people like Iqbal Singh making up their own rules. Regarding hazoor sahib having the pure maryada, I could say the sangat in Bhurampur who have no punjabi origins and are Sikhs from Guru Nanak Dev jees time follow the most pure maryada because they had no outside influence. They took amrit when guru Gobind arrived there, after completing a maharaj bir at Agra, Guru Sahib left this bir there. You should go there and see for yourself and see the difference between them and hazoor sahib. Maharaja Ranjeet sent people to Hazoor sahib to work on building the gurdwara, its wrong to say they could not have been influenced by others or to claim their maryada is most pure. Where is the evidence? other than guessing Giani Kulwants singhs avastha. I dont know him and was unable to meet him when at hazoor Sahib, but someones avastha is one thing and panthic Rehit maryada is another.

The links are self explanatory as the various organisations have mentioned what areas he has attacked. Veer jee Im asking for page referances so I can read about the areas he has attacked in his darpan Sikh rehit maryada, Ive only read it once and I did not come across these remarks (maybe I didnt notice or forgot such remarks have been made) and Ive been looking through the book, but I cant find the arguments which the organisations have found objectionable. So im simply asking if you could help me with giving page numbers. Until ive read the relevant sections of the book I dont think its appropriate to make an opinion.

Veer jee Could you provide referances regarding giani gurbax Singh jees attack on the nitnem bani, I have his book Darpan Sikh rehit maryada but im abit confused about the arguments you are raising. Your links say this is what he has done. And also questioned the Amrit banis. I also belief Giani Gurbax Singh Gulshan has never studied at any missionary college. So its odd he is being called a missionary (as your links claim). giani Gurbax Singh totally follows the Panthic Sikh rehit maryada, so I will be suprised if he attacks the akal Takhat. Its interesting that no one seems to be following the Akal Takhat, the Akal Takhat says no Granth can be parkash with the Guru granth Sahib (yet we openly reject this), then when someone is attacking the dasam granth they are kuffars for challenging the Akal Takhat. We are all liable for challenging the Akal Takhat. I look forward to the page referances.

To a certain extent, I think your searching questions and honesty will eventually make ur avastha alot higher than most of us. Rather than hiding your true thoughs you are confronting them. Most of us will try and be something which our mind is not. Its only a good thing if you challenge this. You are looking to love God, ultimately its the hardest thing, its totally submitting to Gods will and not worshipping God out of our own selfish need. Most of us like me dont do Paath out of true love, but if we reach that stage then guru jee says: nanak Leen bhayoo Gobind siyo, jo pani sang pani: O Nanak, he merges with the Lord of the Universe, like water with water. ||3||11|| http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=2404 We become one with Waheguru, there becomes no difference between us and God, we become bhagats. What you are saying is true, most of us do simran or ardas etc because we fear God, or because we want something in return. Its easy to say have piyar for God, for example most of us who are rude and laugh at others are then the ones give advice, very stange esp if this is the result of piyar for Waheguru. The fact that you are looking for answers can in it self be an ardaas, maharajs says: vin bolia sabh kich janda tis agai keechai ardas. If u in your heart are crying for Gods help, God can hear and understand ur hearts feeling better than any of us. If we ask maharaj to forgive for our mistakes or sins then we will be put on gurmats marag or path, if there is ever an ardas we should make, this I feel is the best one, or one applicable to me: pichlai aughan bakash laih, prabh agai marag pavai. Please forgive my past actions and place me on the path to Waheguru in the future. By doing such an ardas maharaj will definitly help us the shabad continues: hir AMqrjwmI sB ibiD jwxY qw iksu pih AwiK suxweIAY ] The Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts, knows all about my state of mind; so who else should I go to and speak to? khxY kQin n BIjY goibMdu hir BwvY pYj rKweIAY ] kehanai kathhan n bheejai gobi(n)dh har bhaavai paij rakhaaeeai || The Lord, the Lord of the Universe, is not pleased by mere recitation of words; if it is pleasing to His Will, He preserves our honor. Avr Et mY sglI dyKI iek qyrI Et rhweIAY ]3] avar outt mai sagalee dhaekhee eik thaeree outt rehaaeeai ||3|| I have seen all other shelters, but Yours alone remains for me. ||3|| hoie dieAwlu ikrpwlu pRBu Twkuru Awpy suxY bynµqI ] hoe dhaeiaal kirapaal prabh t(h)aakur aapae sunai baena(n)thee || Becoming kind and compassionate, God the Lord and Master Himself listens to my prayer. pUrw sqguru myil imlwvY sB cUkY mn kI icMqI ] pooraa sathagur mael milaavai sabh chookai man kee chi(n)thee || He unites me in Union with the Perfect True Guru, and all the cares and anxieties of my mind are dispelled. hir hir nwmu AvKdu muiK pwieAw jn nwnk suiK vsMqI ]4]12]62] har har naam avakhadh mukh paaeiaa jan naanak sukh vasa(n)thee ||4||12||62|| The Lord, Har, Har, has placed the medicine of the Naam into my mouth; servant Nanak abides in peace. ||4||12||62|| Sometimes It may feel like God is punishing us, however its a test to see whether we would waiver just like another veer jee said. The real nature of god is described in the shabad har jan rakhi gur gobind, kanth laih avgun sabh mithai dyal purakh bashand. http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=2600 Our role is to follow the hukam, Waheguru will take care of the rest.

Veer jee I was talking about kirtan gayan sheli which has been kept alive by a few individuals. The gayan sheli and method of kirtan is chaunkri. kachi bani is an imitation of maryada given by guru sahib. Its simple, if you want to do simple tunes and kavita which people feel is easier to understand then use the maryada which guru sahib gave us called dhadi. Darna is an imitation of the way gur shabad is done, this is why people constitute darna as kachi bani. There are 100s of simple shabads which we can all understand, but why do people not sing these shabads? If gurbani is hard to understand why not sing shabads such as: Tu mera pita to hai mera mata? har jan simroo hirdai ram? or joo mangai ta kur apni teh (char desha kee noo bal apna)? If you want to look at Anand Sahib (which I orginally was not referring to), the word 'bina' makes it clear that other than Guru jees bani, all other is kachi. Each pauri is linked to the other, read the pauri before and after pauri 24 and you will see the emphasis is on Gur shabad. Gurbani is staight from nirankar, darna are the creation of individuals and subject to faults, therefore guru jee says even when they are singing paratma's name, they still are false (because its not the word of god). Har Har nit kari rasana kahya kachoo na janee. The imitation of gur shabad and kirtan by darna makes me feel that it is being passed of like bani. Veer jee I. saying that darna entered gurughar after 1920s/30s, before this time I do not believe they were allowed, Harmander Sahib for example has never allowed darna or any recitation other than gurbani. Im not interested in Sadhus, im only interested in the maryada of gurughar. Veer jee I might be wrong, but a raag is between 5 and 7 sura. What makes Raag so hard that people cannot play it? most tunes I have heard people play are between these amount of sura aswell. So we can listen to pop tunes and copy them, but we have problems doing kirtan in raags which will require you to use between 5 to 7 sura.

There is a difference between singing a kavita and singing a darna which is in the roop of kirtan, Singing in the roop of kirtan is nakali of the maryada given by Guru Sahib. Nakli of gur shabad's kirtan is kachi bani. Therefore I think singing anything which is not the Gurus shabads (or Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal jees shabads which is parvan by the panth) with a saaj accepted in the guru ghar and singing in the roop of kirtan (sitting chaunkri unlike dhadi which is standing and is sang with its own rules), constitutes kachi bani. Singing a line as pointed in khata is not in the roop of kirtan, just as singing dhadi vara which has its own distinct roop and rules. I dont think we should break our rules because others do not fully understand. People will start saying forget doing nitnem because I dont understand what maharaj is saying. If people presenting Sikhi on stages are not going to make a stand and follow Guru jees maryada, why will the sangat who apparently cant understand? This erosion of our sadhant seems to be represented in so many different areas of Sikhi, like not having a gatra with your kirpan, rather people today are starting to wear a naked kirpan (not in the miyan) and tired onto a thread. I also dont believe in the old days simple tunes were played or darnas, this creation of darna was after 1920/30s. Sants before this time only did kirtan in Raag. Examples can be found in Sant Sarvan Singh jee Ghandarv and Sant Attar Singh jee's mastuana kirtan taksal. Ragi Jaswant Singh jee 'Tibar' book, 'Sangeet Sagar' also shows that Raag kirtan was taught and accepted within the Damdami Taksal. So this creation of darna I believe in a new thing. The erosion in gurmat sangeet is even being seen in places like harmander sahib. There was once a day when shabad chounki and kirtani in raags was only allowed, no darna, ghazal tunes, film tunes etc. Then they said you dont need a full chaunki as the maryada used to be, then they said you only have to do one shabad in raag and alap in the first shabad. Today the alaap has disappeared for most raagis and I can see kachi bani coming soon.

correct answer. Can the poster please correct the post as this is incorect information being given, especially to those who are new to these terms. Lets eliminate misunderstandings not create them. Thanks for writing these veechar on ghar. Veer gurmat sangeet jee or the other veer/bhen jee's who wrote this, could you please give me some referances so I can read up more on your understanding of Ghar. Ive never come across this interpretation of Ghar. Is this claimed by all bidwaans of gurmat sangeet? like Is there a consensus? All Gurmat sangeets books ive read have not made this point. If you could send me your sources, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

Veer Inder Singh jee, my first paragraph was regarding your source and other jhatas which they have exposed, will you also speak against those traitors (as you put it) as your source has previously done? My third paragraph was about the context which I feel the photos could be percieved as. So I am sticking to the topic. You need to calm down for 5 mins and read my post again. I do not argee with Prof Darshan Singh jees interpretation of the Dasam granth, however I also dont agree with taking these pictures out of context. Prof Darshan Singh could be held liable for his words on the Dasam granth, not sitting with a former head granthi, or sitting in the hazoori of Guru maharaj. So how am I indirectly trying to Save Prof Darshan Singh jee when I said im against Prof Darshan Singh jees views on the Dasam granth? please enlighten me. The problem is that when we dont agree with someone on one issue, we try to discredit him in everyway possible, even it makes us look foolish (like those pictures being posted). Veer jee if you want to take care of the panth, then the correct procedures should be used. I sent you the links where both Singh Sahib Joginder Singh Vendanti and Balwant Singh Nandgarh have questioned the authority of Iqbal SIngh being able to excommunicate. tu tu maih maih is not taking care of the panth. These pictures are not taking care of the panth, its summarised by Veer proactive jee very well. Veer Proactive jee I agree with your views, the approach you mention should have been taken, veechar should have taken place, the outcome no one should fear.

Veer LondonJatt, You dont need to follow any person. Follow guru maharaj and listen to Bhai Gurdas jee vara. If you dont want to follow that, then consider the soical impact the caste system has, who wants to be apart of this system? Its normally those who are at the top of ladder and who do not face as much discrimination as those below. The caste system is the root of social evils, discrimination and inequality (esp in India). If you want to be apart of that system then you are contributing to the existence of the evils. Veer jee, I assume you have visited India and since you do not listen to the views of those generations have not been back to India, go to Punjab and ask Jatts who want to do medicine for their degree. If you do this, you will see the adverse affects the caste system has on all communities. Just as people should not be judged on the colour of their skin, gender etc they should also not be judged by the family they were born into. Until you destory this system, descrimination and deprivation of the lower castes will always exist.

Interesting source Inder Singh veer jee. Is this not the same people who condemn Taksal and sant samaj for being RSS? Let see if you will also support action be taken against such groups. :D or will be see the normal double standards by you. Since you have taken it upon yourself to personaly save the panth, I hope you will also save the panth from jathabandis which are out to destroy Sikhi (such as the ones mentioned above). Im afraid I will have to include Iqbal Singh in that category. Its seems we can ignore procedures because we feel like. I'm against such actions just like im against Prof Darshan Singh jees views on the dasam granth. Veer Namstang jee you make some good points. I think Prof Darshan Singh jees opinions are the problem and not who he is seen with in photos. One of the pictures are in Guru maharaj hazori and even that is being disputed as being wrong. Another is with former head granthi of darbar sahib and Jathedahr of Akal Takhat (Puran Singh), end of the day he was the head granthi and doing seva at darbar sahib, what was he supposed to do in panthic meetings when the head granthi is present, hide from him? And the bollywood thing I find funny, esp since he now questions the dasam granth. however, if someone other than Prof Darshan Singh was in that video, we would be praising them.

Veer jee my pooa jee was an amirtdhari, but when her rishta happened my fufar was not. My fufar agreed to take amrit before marriage. The first thing is that he had a base of taking amrit and secondly my pooa jee was really strong in her Sikhi. This combination made my fufar jee into a really good gursikh. Ive not met many people who follow gurbani and wahegurus hukam like he does. Only you know yourself and the bibi in question. Ive seen these situations which work really well. If one shows piyar for Sikhi and piyar for another human being, it will all work out ok. Take care veer je and I hope it all works out. asdf your post is very admirable you need to tell her exactly what you posted. you are asking her to join you in a discipline or path to grow together. you are not offering to change who she is, only she will do that. if she takes amrit, you then need to trust that, like truth, wishes from the heart can be simple. Good advice and explanation veer jee.

Sikhi is against causing pain to your body. If you are not getting enough sleep or not eating when you need food, you are causing unneccesary pain. In India, those people who are farmers mostly sleep in the afternoon. For most of us, this life is impossible, so if you need to sleep after amrit vela, just go for it. Remember that when we are in our jobs etc we are representing Sikhi with our Sikhi saroop. If you are doctor for example and you keep yawning, it does not look very professional. I think this issue is personal (just as eating before amrit vela). Dont do something which will make you ill and fatigue. :D

I believe that kal jug is a state of mind like another veer jee has stated. keI bwr psirE pwswr ] (O Lord) Many times the universe has been created (expanded and then collapse). From what I have understood, Waheguru has created this universe many times. We know that the universe is expanding at this moment. According to Wahegurus hukam it will collapse and re start. I assume this is some kind of on going process. qyrw AMqu n jwxw myry swihb mY AMDuly ikAw cqurweI ]2] I dont think we can put numbers or limit Waheguru, We dont know what will happen or if something will happen. Our aim is to live within Wahegurus hukam.

Excellent points. I agree with everything you said Veer jee.

Veer jee, most of us were never in the cause, so we are leaving nothing. We are merely sitting in our homes, probably watching Champions league and thinking about what we will do over the next few days. Im simply stating that two worlds exist, one world lives in poverty and stuggles in corruption, the other mostly lives in luxury and thinks it has the right to condemn (they are cowards apparently) and decide the future of the former. No one is saying anything about forgiveness, first one will ask forgiveness before they are forgiven. Im not sure many people are asking for forgiveness. I dont think the people in Punjab are forgetting anyone who became shahid. However, the issue for them today is finding roti to put down their familys mouths. We are so badly out of touch with Punjab, its easy for us to burn Indian flags and have some nice hot langar afterwards. We forget we are dealing with real people living in the real world. Its not right to forget those who became shahids but its also not right to forget about the issues real people are facing today in Punjab. All we are good at is creating labels for people. Veer jee If we look at history, people were present in the state or country where the action or fight took place, they were not absent in some foreign land pointing fingers. Also just to point out, no one is oppressing, killing or making people leave Sikhi in Punjab, people have the right to decide and follow their faiths. The creation of a state can be a demand which all people of a nation have, but labelling people is not something which is needed.

Veer DalSingh jee, thanks for sending this article. Things are not looking good for punjab. These sprays are so bad, but what choice does the farmer have? And those masks are useless aswell. It does not matter if u have a mask or wrap cloth around your face, the spray is so stong. I can remember when I was doing it, I thought i was going to faint, the spray is just so strong. People are doing these sprays in 2s or 3s just in case one person falls. But what if we all fell :S . We also have to remember that the spray is in fields and people who live on a kooa (farm) are sarrounded by the spray. people who live in the pind are also near the spray. To make matters worse is the rain falling in the wrong times. Or no rain in July/August. All over doaba fields were in a mess. The Goverment will not help the farmers, any money which is supposed to be given to farmers will end up in the pockets of the middle man. We just have hope some solutions are found in Punjab and the Goverment does more to support farmers.

I have to agree with Veer Jassa Jee, when im in punjab the overall mood I sense is not for khalistan. When in the UK, Canada etc, there is a different mood. Its easy to protest on the steets of London or New York then go back home and carry on with your daily lives. But people in Punjab stuggle for money to buy food, educating their children etc. deprivation is such a big problem. The challenges of Punjab are constantly changing and people abroad are out of touch with punjab and its problems. The poorer people dont have time for Khalistan will continue to stuggle in their lives or to even survive, the richer people believe in a modern and secular state and People in the UK, US and Canada will remain in the their respective countrys, thats how I see it. Veer Eshani jee, you may only see cowards left in Punjab, but alot of people only see cowards who ran abroad and call for the creation of Khalistan thousands of miles away from the action. So who is the coward? Those who live in India? or those who shout thousands of miles away knowing India cant bite back? Raj Karegh khalsa was written by Bhai Nand Lal Singh jee, it has nothing to do with creating a state in my eyes. We need to look at the context it was written in. Before this pauri, Bhai Nand Laal Singh jee is telling us what the Khalsa can and cannot do. Then he says Raj karega Khalsa (the khalsa should rule over the above) akhee rahya na kaoo (none of the above vices should remain). This is my understand of the line. We need to look at the whole compisition and not seperate Raj karega khalsa from it.

I just have a few questions which maybe someone can help with: Im just wondering if patasai are put into the water, was bani not read like an amrit sanchar? (one person suggested that patasai are simply put into the water) Is the child expected to have panj kakkar, are they an amritdhari and expected to follow rehit such as nitnem? Is the child then expected to take amrit again when he/she gets older? What is the benefit from giving amrit to a child? (this seems to be seperate from taking the ardas and hukamnama which is the bakshah of guru jee for the childs name and message of guru jee) and is there some kind of consequence for the child who does not? I have also not come across amrit being administrated to children in any hukamnama, rehit nama etc. It does seem odd that this is missing.

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=265

han jee phen jee, thats how people in my family feel about sant ranjit singh. phen jee the programme i heard was a year ago when the whole sacha sauda thing was happening and he made the point which I mentioned. (I think its on youtube aswell, but i cant find it at the moment) I may have miss understood him, but end of the day the more parchar he does, the better for the quam. I simply feel the power of gurbani should be used more. I was actually saying we should not put people into boxes or categories The point of me giving the story of my experience with a sant from banga is that its not simple as: a person reads kachi bani and they have no atamac avasta, my experience tells me this... thats why i gave the example of sant mehar singh jee.

Im simply giving my opinion on gurbani and kachi darna as others before have me have, all I am doing is expressing my confusion over comparisons being made between kachi darna, dhadi and kavishar. Some of my family like Sant Ranjit Singh alot and they always go to his , however all i found was him talking about me me .... Ive got people into Sikhi, people dont like me because i do amrit sanchar etc etc. I did not like it, its just my experience. My family knows my opinion, it doesnt mean i shout at them for going to his programmes, if they find it good who am i to say they are not feeling anything? But i can speak from my own experience. Im close to a sant near Banga called sant mehar Singh, he also sings kachia darna, Ok... even though I dont agree with singing kachia darna, I still go to sant jees programmes and do as much seva as possible. my belief is that although you dont agree with someone, it does not make them lower. Sant mehar Singh is the most spiritual person i met in my life, when i was turning away from Sikhi he came to me and told me all my kartoota and told me how i will waste my life. How did sant jee know everything about me i dont no. sorry for going off the topic, but all im saying is that we should put people into boxes and unless you can tick the boxes they are not gursikhs. Ok i dont agree which kachi darna, but that sant had something inside him to take me to the side and explain everything, so my experience is not to simply put people into boxes. But my understanding and experience leads me to say the power of gurbani should be given precedence. Hope that clears up what im saying phen jee.

I dont understand why people compare these kachi darna to dadhi to kavishar. These kachi darna are sang in the roop of kirtan rather than dadhi which simply relate history and have there own roop. What ive seen in the darbar is people singing to these kachi darna, we were supposed to get people to join with gurbani. We should encourage the sangat to sing gurbani, not our own chutrai. You also do not hear people sing along to dhadi or kavisar because they are telling a larri, while these kachi darna are presented as a challenge to our gur bani. Why is it a challenge? because when people come out of the darbar, they can tell us the message of flaana flanna sant but not the udesh of Guru Maharaj. It should also be noted that khata is the direct veechar of gurbani lines, not singing of kachi darna. It makes think how much belief do we have in gurbani, if people can be more quickly influnced by these low level geet/darna then we have not understood the power of gurbani. bin Sahadai sab jag boorana, birtaa janam gavaya.

Guru Nanak Dev jee along with the other gurus came into this world for the following reason: suxI pukwr dwqwr pRB gur nwnk jg mwihM pTwXw] The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent guru Nanak dev jee to this world. (Bhai Gurdas jee) The Invaders who were Muslims had entered the lands of India and murdered, looted and forced their religion on others. According to Guru Gobind Singh jee maharaj in the bachittar natak, Hinduism and Islam had taken away the sole centre of religion, which is worshipping God, rather in these religions the names of the prophets rather than God were shown preferance. So Guru Nanak Dev jee sang gurbani (the divine revelation of the Lord) and praised God as represented in Mool mantar at the start of the Guru Granth Sahib jee. Hindus not only had stopped worshipping god, (by dividing his attributes into manfiestations) but they also divided humanity into a class system: cwrY pYr DrMm dy cwr vrn iek vrn krwXw] Dharma was now established on its four feet and all the four castes (through fraternal feeling) were converted into one caste (of humanity). (Bhai Gurdas jee) These are just some of the reasons why Guru Nanak DEv jee came to this world and how social system along with religious systems had failed the devotee. The principles which Guru Nanak Dev jee stood for were not new, guru Nanak Dev jee simply spoke the truth, truth has always existed, as represented by the bani of the bhagats, whos bani supports the principles of the gurus People who follow the truth such as Bhagat Kabir jee, Bhagat Nam DEv jee, Bhagat Farid jee all reached God, even though they came before the times of Guru Nanak Dev, they represented the same ideology. Remembering or meditating on the Lords name has been given as the highest religion by the Sikh Gurus (notice that a specific religion is not named, the purpose of life is not limited to labels: sB qy aUqm iehu krmu ] This is the most exalted deed. sgl Drm mih sRyst Drmu]Of all faiths, this is the most sublime and excellent faith. hir ismrin qyrw hoie auDwru ]Meditating in remembrance on the Lord, you shall be saved. jnm jnm kw auqrY Bwru ]3]You shall be rid of the burden of countless incarnations. ||3|| The Guru however has given his Sikhs a code of conduct, the code is distinct from other religions. Rather than just worshipping god or looking after those of the faith (as many religions only look out for each other), a Sikh lives to serve humanity. This makes a Sikh unique. In the case of a Sikh, he must follow his guru, its not simply possible as saying I remember the Lord therefore I can reach God. Dharam is a path, walking on no path will lead you no where and all you will do is get lost. Sikhs cannot use this as an excuse to not follow Sikhi. Guru Nanak Dev jes bani reminds us of the essentials to reach God (as noted in this post). There are many figures in the Sikh history such as Baba budhan Shah, baba Bikhan Shah, Mian Mir etc, the gurus never told them to change faith, however it is normally accepted in Sikhism that these people had reached God. Sorry for mistakes I have made. This is not an easy topic to understand and my knowledge is limited, i have only said what I understand at this moment in time, through discussing we can learn more.

Singh Sahib Joginder Singh Vendanti jee is coming to the UK, maybe you should approach him. Or write a letter to Singh Sahib jee and he can send a sandesh or letter to the Committee. The Panthic Sikh Rehit maryada does not say we should have jap je sahib with the Akhand path sahib, however the sancheya problem and the speach against dasam granth could be solved by a simple letter. It would also show the Committee you are being professional and not just looking for arguments, but that you are basically concerned with the running of the gurdwara and will look at all avenues.

Excellent observaton by Veer V jee and its a worrying fact. I can remember reading Bhai Vir Singh jees jeevan kahanee, he was about 6/7 years old and he was doing path (akhand path) from a larivar bir (also called jurmukhi bir). When such preperation and hard work is made both by the teacher and the pupil (for example when Bhai Vir Singh jee was 6 years old), then a poet, writer, gurmukh is created. The foundation of children is so important, sometimes we should look at such gurmukhs and see how they were bought up. Another example is Bhai Balbir Singh jee ex hazoori ragi Harmander Sahib. At 4 years of age he was doing alaap. When he was 7 years old he started doing kirtan at Taran Taran Sahib Gurdwara.