jashb

I agree with the broad sentiment of your overall message bro. Although I don't quite agree with your assessment of a minority as "innocent muslims". You might be shocked to learn that it's this so-called minority of "innocent muslims" that are potentially far more dangerous than the so-called "extremists", because, in the west, they defend, justify and covertly support the more obvious "extremists". This has been proven in surveys time and time again, so many times that you could spend a whole day gathering them and you still wouldn't be finished. Furthermore, far worse than the more obvious, so-called, "extremists", their apparently "secular" image very effectively masks their islamic agenda, leaving them free to advocate for and implement shariah policies in ways that the so-called "extremists" never could. __________________________________________________________________ Nor do I agree with your selection of "the Bangladeshi community" as "a few good ones". You might only be talking about those that reside in the UK, where, admittedly, most, within their community stronghold of Tower Hamlets in London, are still struggling, poor, hard-up petty thugs and "shotta'z", trying to make ends meet and not overly concerned with devout islam. But that's changing fast. The bangladeshi community both back home and in the UK, is rapidly islamifying, so much so, that the development is manifesting itself in a growing jihad on "non-believers" in both locations. Just take a look at the East London mosque, the biggest mosque in the UK. That became one of the foremost sources of "radical" islamic brainwashing when the Wahhabi's controlled it (not sure who does now), and the damage has mostly already been done. So bruv, just give the bangladeshi community time. Eventually, they will all be just as fanatic as migrated pakistani muslims. They' re just playing catch up. My own bangla mate told me that the relative "asian-ness" of bangladeshi muslims was a symptom of the fact that they have been hindu more recently than the paks. So, as time wears on, islam, with all the associated "tolerance" of "non-believers" that that brings (lol!), will eventually replace the indigenous bangla culture of bangladeshi muslims. You don't need me to tell you that that ain't goin' to have favourable effects, nor be a positive development for "non-believers". lol. As we saw with the Bow Road Gurdwara arson, and we hear from the tiny minority of Sikh kids that reside and go to school in those areas; most bangladeshi muslims already ain't got too much love for minorities in their dominant area, including Sikhs: so you might want to reassess your view. __________________________________________________________________ Having said that, I ain't lost much love for the goreh either. And if we're perfectly honest, then they ain't lost much love for us either. Those that think they could, on the whole, give a damn about the difference between us and muslims, even if they knew what that was (and an islamically biased school religious education national curriculum means that the white youth, in particular, don't!), are plain deluded my friend. Plain deluded. Most of the working classes just see us as paki's; "brown" just like the rest of the "asians"/"muslims". Are any of us really naive enough to think that they don't? lol! __________________________________________________________________ In terms of the EDL; well their particular courting of Sikhs has been discussed to death. It's quite clear that Tommy Robinson couldn't give a flying f about Sikhs. It just so happens, that at this particular moment in time, the EDL are so vilified in the mainstream media, that they are desperately seeking out alliances with like minded groups that are also facing the same problems from muslims as they are. A bonus point of courting the Sikhs is that the papers can't claim that they're racist (though that hasn't stopped them so far). So the dumb @r$e$ that are supporting them need to know where they stand. Let the goreh fight their own battles, dudes; I for sure ain't about to put myself on the line for some racist hooligans. Allow that blud. Allow that.

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We have more than one. The most recent was issued in 2007/8 in direct response to the situation in the UK which is making a mockery of the entire concept of Anand Karaj. But moreover, Panth Parvanit Darpan Sikh Rehit Maryada (documented as far back as the 1920's), as helpfully posted by DasamSarblohGranth above, already adequately addresses any doubt and is directly based on the 52 Hukamnamas of Dasven Patshah. The problem is a a few money hungry committees that continue to book these sham marriage ceremonies because they see it as a lucrative market where they can clean up on bookings that have rightly been refused elsewhere. __________________________________________________________________ And by the way, since when were these sham marriages called "inter-faith" or "inter-religious" marriages? Call them sham marriages for what they are!

There are more revelations in this thread than you can shake a stick at. Possibly more in this one thread than you'd get in a whole week of daily star. If hammertime's unexpected transformation into asylum-seeker-hugging-liberal was not enough, then how about LegalSingh being outed for child slavery. What did I miss while I was away?! Keep 'em coming lads.

Well, that's about 90% of war torn somalians (affectionately known as pirates ) set to be staying here in the UK then, making good ol' blighty their permanent home, on the back of hammertime's exquisitely formed advice. Plus all of romania, bulgaria, poland, latvia... And don't forget half of iraq, egypt, syria, libya... __________________________________________________________________ Hmmm. What did they say about being careful what you wish for? No worries boyo. Top recommendation all the same lad. I'm sure it's not intentional. Still; You'd go down a treat among the softy liberals and islamist appeasers at the labour party conference.

You know what, Bradistan is currently the subject of another thread. Why not make a trip there? Ok, now I could think of a thousand and one reasons why you'd want to avoid doing exactly that, but let's say, for illustrative purposes, you've got a few screws loose, so you take a sojourn to lovely Bradford, to see the islamic hell hole for what it is, in order to convey the below point. You'd hear a lot of Panjabi spoken. But, you wouldn't see many Sikhs speaking it. That's because the majority of Panjabi speakers, in Bradford, across the UK, and in fact, all over the entire world, are pakistani muslim, and not Sikh at all. __________________________________________________________________ Shocked? If you're not, then you're in the minority. In fact, much of our community is so self contained, that our general misconception that Sikhs hold some kind of monopoly over the Panjabi language, is one of the most common delusions prevalent amongst Panjabi (especially rural) Sikhs. That, and the other, of course, being our stupid idea that almost all Jatts are Sikhs. The unholy equation goes something like this: "Panjabi = Sikh = Jatt". While readers of this forum would no doubt laugh at the stupidity of anyone who could actually believe that could be true, I could still show you about 90% of people from a certain biraderi who actually still believe that to be true in 2013. __________________________________________________________________ So many Sikhs, detached from the wider environment that they live in, and furthermore, still stuck in the whole "we're all asian" delusion, enthusiastically quote the fact about Panjabi being one of the most widely spoken second languages in the UK, as if it's a badge of honour for them. They are comically oblivious to the fact that the statistic is not of their creation, but rather that of their deepest enemy's. That same enemy that threw their ancestors' babies up in to the air, only to catch them on their wooden spikes, then made garlands of the severed infants' heads to place around the mother of the murdered children's neck, while she was forced to grind corn for the sadistic mohommedans, that so many of our own would assert to be our "panjabi brothers", in evidence of this irrelevant statistic. Clowns.

Badal? "Very Pro-farmer?" I've honestly hardly ever heard the two used in the same sentence. Only once by an overly simplistic peasant that eagerly campaigned for the success of the akali party. The statement is just as accurate as Rajeev's back when he claimed that Surjeet Barnala is "very pro-militant" in 1986/7 so he could thank him for his good work for the Centre and post him to Tamil Nadu and thereby impose his own Indian National Congress President's rule over Panjaab. Those on the ground would have a laugh if they heard that. "Very Pro-Bania" more like. It would be a hundred times more accurate. __________________________________________________________________ It's a sad indictment of the sheer gullibility, simplicity and hopelessness of our majority farming based community if they interpret the grant of free electricity to farmers as being "very pro-farmer". Forget the haryana government for one second. This guy Badal himself has been forcibly evicting farmers from their land in Panjaab in order to clear the way for his industrial friends and nuclear power plants to spread uranium poisoning among Panjaab's rural (Sikh) population! If Badal was truly pro-farmer, he could have stuck two fingers up to his own prestigious seat as super tout/stooge, and instead, stuck by his declaration of Khalistan at the United Nations in 1993/5, that he made jointly with Mann Sahib, Talwandi, Tohra and Capt. Amrinder; Thereby giving farmers the freedom to sell their own produce at prices set openly and fairly in the international market; instead of being dictated a price at 10% of the international level by the Indian Government and getting raped year on year like they do at the moment just because our so called "leader" in 1947 was an urban fella who couldn't give a flying f about our farmers and really just wanted to see the back of the muslims (fair enough, don't blame him for that bit) while gladly accepting his reward for ensuring the slavery of the Sikh Nation from his brahmin brothers in crime. Khalistan would be a truly "pro-farmer" measure. Unlike the petty sop that is free electricity (nobody pays their bills in india anyway, power is routinely stolen and the power cuts every five minutes anyway so it's not like free power makes any difference). __________________________________________________________________ But let's give the old crocodile a chance. Give us the freedom to sell our produce to whoever we like, wherever we like and we'll pay 3x over for the damn electricity. We don't need free electricity, we need freedom for f's sake! Out of the above five politicians, only Mann Sahib is still truly pro-farmer, because he's the only one out of the above five who has stuck by his signature and continued to advocate for the freedom of Panjaab's farmers. Unless of course, Badal has secured an amazing deal for farmers along the lines of Anandur Sahib Resolution without anybody realising and has kept it secret all along, only to reveal it on the night before election to win a record breaking sixth term. Gangsta. I await the news.

Thanks veerji for putting that leaflet up. I've never really understood the so called "missionaries". I have, however, always recognised them as trouble makers and probable agents who try to steer conversations toward controversial and widely misunderstood issues to further division and friction. I have met a few of their leaders in the UK. They struck me as weirdos; both extreme in viewpoint and outlook. These guys are one to two-man bands who have little to no following or influence in most of the UK. Widely avoided among the youth out here in London. Worryingly, however, they have been very successful in cracking the committee of the biggest and arguably most powerful guru ghar outside India; Southall. I understand that their true base is in North America though. The cd's that they hand out usually mention "Singh Sabha Canada". This influence manifests itself through the extreme views regarding Dasam Bani of many, otherwise normal, easy going, middle aged to elderly Sikhs there. To me, that's a clear sign of brainwashing. ________________________________________________ One thing I have always noted about them is the strength of their propaganda machine. They seem to be able to produce cd's and literature at will; they produce hundreds to thousands of cd's of their favourite speakers like darshan ragi and thailand wala that promote their views to hand out for free at gurdwara's. Their audience in the UK, up until now, I have only seen to be the elderly and practising Sikhs (those that incidentally control the gurdwara committees), who can understand panjabi well in both written and spoken format. The leaflet that you posted above is their first propaganda piece I have seen that is seriously well written in english. No doubt Harinder Singh had a hand in that. Their favourite topic is always attacking Dasam Bani. ________________________________________________ But this, veerji, is where the problem starts regarding this leaflet. Whereas I do find it an unnecessarily anal piece, that really labours its point far too much, I do however agree with its bottom line message; that a person's genetic lineage is utterly irrelevant in front of a fair and just God. It is a person's kamai that matters. So I have always been confused by the importance leant to the History of the Bedi and the Sodhi dynasties as evident from their inclusion in Bachittar Naatak. I once asked an uncle who was supposed to be knowledgeable in Dasam Bani about this. His reply was not strong; it was along the lines of the purpose of the history is to show the honourable and/or royal nature of Dasam Patshah's genetic lineage. But my thought remained; isn't the core message of Bani against the very idea of noble births and high castes? My fear is that many readers will actually agree with that leaflet, or, at the very least, fail to see what us wrong with it.

Plenty about khemu ram above. This all reminds me of an article that came out around the time that bollywood was mooting films glorifying indira gundhi and butcher gill variously, with amitabh butcher being lined up to play the role of the 'heroic' mass murderer: ________________________________________________ http://emgonline.co.uk/news.php?news=8445 Wed, Jan 06, 2010 11:44:08 Sikhs warned of Amitabh Bachans dark side The Indian Bollywood star has shown his true colors, his Sikh fans should be aware of his involvement during the anti-Sikh riots in November 1984 when 20,000 (according to the BBC) were murdered ________________________________________________ Charges against Amitabh Bachchan Bollywood Star are * During 84' Sikh Genocide, Amitabh Bachchan was shown on television inciting people to kill Sikhs after the assassination of the then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi * He said, Sikhs had not only assassinated Indira Gandhi, they had killed the mother of the nation. * He raised the slogan Khoon ke chheente Indira ko marne walon ke gharon tak pahunchne chahiye (The bloodstains must reach the houses of those who killed Indira) ________________________________________________ The known family lineage of the infamous Bollywood actor Amitabh Bachan is as below Sir Khem Singh Bedi (1832-1904), had 2 sons Kartar Singh Bedi and Gurbaksh Singh Bedi Gurbaksh Singh's grandaughter was Teji Bedi and her son is Amitabh Bachan. Before all the Sikhs get too excited, there is a very dark side to this family. Sir Khem Singh Bedi claimed to a decendant of Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and was bribed by them to undermine the Gurdwara Sudar Lehar and Singh Sabbha Movement. The Arya Samaj also used him to strengthen the Bipren Ki Reet in the Gurdwaras and thus to Hinduise Sikhi. He used to openly preach that Sikhs were Hindus. He claimed that the Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the fifth veda of the Hindus which provides the essence of Purans and Upanishads. In fact the RSS and Sanatani influences in the various Dehras owe their origins to KHEMU RAM as Sikhs used to call him with disdain. He was immensely disliked by the Khalsa Panth, but on the back of the finances from the Arya Samaj, he set up a Sodak Committee in 1897 of his hand picked people, to consolidate 32 wildly different versions of the Bachitar Natak which had been introduced into Panjab from Bengal via the Nirmalas between 1875 and 1900. He was largely unsuccessful in this Endeavour but was successful in introducing very many Hindu texts and traditions into various dehras. He died a very distraught man from painful llness. His palace built from ill gotten gains now lies in ruins near Rawalpindi in Pakistan. A fitting legacy to the evil that he represented. His son Kartar Singh Bedi was a staunch supporter of the Mahant Narain Das who murdered 130 Sikhs at Nankana Sahib in 1921. His other son Gurbaksh Singh Bedi was notoriously anti panthic maryada and used to go on Hindu stages to declare that Sikhs are Hindus. His wish came true when his grandaughter married a Hindu Bhaia from UP and converted to Hinduism. She brought up her son Amitabh Bachan to be a Sikh hating Hindu fanatic. She herself died from a long painful illness at the age of 93 yrs. Sir Khem Singh Bedi's great grandson Amitabh Bachan stood alongside Rajiv Gandhi in June 1984 to applaud the destruction of Sri Akaal Takat Sahib to flush out 'terrorists', and later in Oct 1984 to 'teach the bastards a lesson'. To date he has never condemned the genocide of the Sikhs on the streets of Delhi and other Indian towns.

<banned word filter activated> do lie all the time and make up names. Indeed, devious behaviour is sanctioned as nothing less than islamic law and actively propagated by the good old book, the 'holy' koran; formalised as al-taqiyyah & kitman; because any misrepresentation made to a kaffir which benefits the cause of islam is halal. But please don't make excuses for paedophile hindu scum. Manish Sood is a high caste hindu paedophile scumbag, not a sullah paedophile scumbag. ________________________________________________ His awful mother, mentioned in the quoted article, that dispicably stood up for him during the trial, is the much celebrated british hindu, current Deputy Lord Mayor of Leicester, Manjula Sood. She gets off quite lightly in the quoted article, which dismisses her as follows: "His mother, also involved with the Labour Council in Leicester as aid to the Mayor, stood by him throughout the trial, saying he was a ‘good man.’" The truth is that she is far more than merely "involved with the Labour Council in Leicester", as the following sources reveal she was much celebrated by the hindu community when she became lord mayor of leicester in 2008: 1. "Manjula Sood is Deputy Lord Mayor of Leicester and was Britain’s first female Asian Lord Mayor in 2008." 2. "Mr. Sood’s mother, Manjula Sood, was Britain’s first Asian woman to hold the office of Lord Mayor of Leicester." 3. "Sood is the son of Manjula Sood, who was the first Asian woman to become the first Lord Mayor in the UK when she assumed the post in Leicester in 2008." ________________________________________________ The way you make it out is as if hindus are not capable of being paedophile scum. Seeing as 99% of pakis are high caste hindus, that actively converted to islam, as they felt the arab sword on their neck, and furthermore, when they realised that islam is an even more exclusionist and discriminatory cult than the brahmin order, it would benefit them even more than the exclusionist hindu caste system which they used to suppress and subdue the low castes... Why is it any surprise that indian hindus are capable of the same behaviour that their ethnically identical brothers, the paki islamists, regularly make themselves famous for? Ideologically, the only serious point of contention between hinduism and islam is their individual positions on idolatry. Just as islam approves of the sexual domination of kaffirs, so does hinduism of shudras. Just look up devdasis and read the manu simriti and the four vedas.

Now here's a movie I'd love to see. Some links about the great Shaheed Bhai Lachman Singh Babbar (born Bashir Mohammed): http://www.frontlinepunjabiyouth.blogspot.com/2008/03/police-take-revenge-on-relative-of-ex.html?m=1 http://www.neverforget84.com/shaheeds/shaheed-bhai-lachman-singh-babbar

Ostrich syndrome. Is that not what it's called? Unfortunately, this kind of behaviour is quite typical of middle class punjabi muslims. You know what? It's not like these folks don't know that a gutter underclass of muslims, such as somalians and mirpuri paks, exist. However, they've never lived close enough to one to know how their religious cohorts make the lives of non-muslims hell, wherever they form a sizeable chunk of the population. Because they're comfortably holed up in the leafy suburbs, far from the inner city hell that is bradistan/londonistan/luton/chalvey/alum rock. That and the fact that punjabi muslims are very careful about socialising within their class - which means doctors, accountants, solicitors - who all live in the same successful middle class/ aspiring higher middle class bubble, which consists of zero to no interaction with the types of gutter rat muslims that are responsible for petty street crime, child grooming, prostitution, aggressive/forced conversions, brainwashing, blackmail, wanton violence and the general social disarray that you see daily "in the endz". Head in the sand. What a shame.

Brother Mehtab Singh, this reminds me of how rajeev's government was suddenly all too eager to acquiesce to the Anandpur Sahib Resolution in 1987 once the likes of Shaheed Bhai Avtar Singh Brahma had given the indian occupying forces a bloody nose and a taste of their own medicine. By 1987, our panth was aiming for a much higher goal than ASR; complete independence from murderous india; the realisation of complete, pure and free Khalistan. And, you know what, we were bloody good at it. So good, that rajeev couldn't wait to settle with us at the far cheaper bargain of devolving a few powers which murderous india should never have usurped from us in the first place. Just as in 1984, when Dharma Yudh Morcha was bringing murderous india to its knees, and on the 1st of June, our farmers were about to implement the next phase of out morcha, in the form of withholding our crops. Murderous india replied by sending in the tanks. So it was, in 1987, when our Jhujaroos were successfully repelling the indian invaders from our soil, and Khalsa Raj was an actual reality in several areas of east panjaab, that, in their desparation, our enemies scrambled to derail the Khalistan movement. However, it was by now clear that brute force alone would not work. Their occupying forces were failing whereas our Jhujaroos were succeeding and enjoying the support of the 95% majority of the people of our soil. So, rajeev had to change tack. Therefore, it was then time for rajeev to play his ace card in the form of his agent, the rogue jathedar Darshan Raagi, and broker a set of "peace meetings" between the panthic committee and Sushil Muni. As suspicious as our Jhujaroos naturally were of the oppressor pretending to turn into the big friendly giant, the cat was out of the bag by the time Darshan announced a convention inviting the (corrupt) akali polity to "redefine the goals of the Khalistan movement" later the same year. The point is that these were no peace meetings. These meetings were an excuse to obtain intelligence as part of an elaborate movement to overhaul our struggle from within. (We can never forget the treachery of the evil dogras, who conspired with the british in the 1840's. Likewise, it was no different to the way the corrupt akalis, and the likes of sohan singh of the panthic committee, who conspired with murderous india in the 1980's and 1990's to commit the genocide of our panth.) It was at that point that Shaheed Baba Manochahal Ji, in another proof of their incredible foresight, wasted no time in setting Darshan straight with his robust response to the rogue jathedar, delivered from the mouth of Bhai Daya Singh Chola Sahib. Their response bears relevance even today, especially in light of the turn that Darshan has taken in recent years, but even more so, in light of this apparent statement by the IOC. The struggle for Khalistan is like a long, patient, game of chess. The enemy responds to our good moves, and our bad moves, with the optimal choice for its own interests, in pursuit of its end goal in line with its overall strategy. This is the enemy's (poor, crass and desperate) response to what I believe are some good moves on the part of our quam. Now, I don't know exactly how "genuine" this "invitation" from the IOC is, seeing how it's riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes, repeated changes in direction and an overall absence of a clear, coherent and consistent message - other than a desparate plea stating "okay, you patriotic Sikhs overseas are kicking the crap out of us, please stop, let's be friends instead!". (Seriously, the stingy b.turds could have just given one of their canadian primary school educated children five dollars to do a better job. It reads like the youtube posts put up by yobbish illiterate indian agents pretending to be someone they're not. Just look at the way it starts off with a clear and uninhibited threat. If that's the "professionalism" of the IOC, I'd certainly steer well clear.) But if there's one message to take away from this letter, then it's that, just as in 1987, when it was our Jhujaroos; in 2013, it's the turn of somebody else, somewhere else, in our quam, who is doing something very, very right; something that is so right that it is troubling even the arrogantly brash murderous india, with all its economic growth and growing influence. And if you ask me, who that somebody is - it's Sikhs For Justice.

To those who say pictorial depictions of the Gurus / Sahibzadey are manmat (missionaries?) Please answer the following questions. Firstly : Please explain as to where pictures were designated as manmat in Sikhi. Secondly : Please prove how pictures equate to idol worship. Not for or against pictorial depictions. Just want to know your reasoning, if any. Thank you. I anticipate your arguments.

Very informative. Not that I ever trusted Sohi. Once a crook, always a crook. As with the dhunda incident, it did not take long for him to show his true colours again.

^^^ Is the Government of India somehow completely exhonerated for its role in this death? Do you not find it suspicious that just as she was showing signs of turning the corner, she was transferred on the orders of the Indian Home Ministry, by air ambulance, to a 'specialist' hospital in singapore, where, coincidentally, she died within 24 hours, despite similar or better facilities existing in India, and the expected transfer time completely wiping out any speculative benefit in care that could have been gained in singapore (the words of doctors and mp's, not mine)? Do you not hold the Government of India responsible for creating a culture of rape, violence, and an atmosphere where murderers and rapists feel safe, nay, confident enough to attack men and women on a whim and feel they will get away with it? I assure you, if there wasn't the fierce uproar against this brutal rape in the few non-governmental, opposition, and campaigning media channels in india that sparked the protests, the Delhi Police would not have lifted a finger! Do you not think that the Government of India created this feeling of impunity (particularly amongst brahmin/high caste hindus) through its own gloriously hideous example? 1984 sikh holocaust in Amritsar anyone? Women gang-raped by bloodthirsty Indian Army Officers in the presence of the pilgrim's own family members or class students, on the orders of senior commanding officers, within the holy precincts of the Golden Temple, on one of the holiest days of the year, when Harimandir Sahib was absolutely overflowing with pilgrims, with no opportunity given for them to leave, and pleas of allowing them water to drink turned away, but shamelessly returned with offers to let them drink the urine out of an Indian Army Officer's <banned word filter activated>? 1984 sikh genocide all over India anyone? Women gang-raped by Government of India Congress Party Politicians and their supporters, with the support, presence, and open approval of the Delhi Police; who were forced to watch while their fathers, husbands, brothers and sons were gruesomely burnt alive with rubber tyres hung around their necks by those same Political 'Leaders' and their paid mercenaries, the conveniently euphemised 'mobs' of Government of india affiliated criminals, that danced around the hapless, burning Sardars as if it was, for them, Dussehra? The very same monsters, that first gang raped the Women, killed their families, and burnt their businesses, shops, and homes; and then, without an inkling of shame or conscience, resumed the operation of humiliation by organising and running the so-called 'relief camps', while laughing, smiling, and grinning at their victims "what's up baby?" Thousands of shameless pariahs, that were widely supported and are still fondly celebrated all over India by depraved, inhumane, racist, and chauvinist right wing ruling classes for teaching a brutal and barbaric lesson to the small but brave Sikh nation, just because it dared to stand up for its basic human rights, sovereignty and freedom; by the commendable use of gang-rape of Women, murder of innocent Men, and destruction of communities and livelihoods to create, overnight, thousands upon thousands of penniless, dishonoured, and destitute Widows, hopelessly dependant on the very state that brutally humiliated them, with their sons hooked on smack, and their daughters forced into prostitution in order just to survive? The same rapists and mass murderers that were swiftly promoted to ministerships in the Government of India as a reward for their great service to India? Who, 28 years later, still face no threat of punishment them for their heinous crimes? Will even a few of the hundreds upon hundreds of identified, documented and traced perpetrators, the ilk of the haryanvi jaats, gujjars, baanias and idle high caste sharmas, the successors of whom were responsible for this gruesome murder, ever be punished for their violent sexual crimes? If not, then why are you shocked that these awful incidents continue to happen? 1984 - 1995 sikh genocide all over Punjab anyone? Women gang-raped by Indian Punjab Police officers, Border Security Force cadres, Indian Army Officers, Black Cat Commandoes, and specially inducted criminal gangs led by the likes of the infamously cruel Izhar Alam, K P Gill, Sumedh Saini, Swaran 'Ghotna', Ajit Sandhu, and Gobind Ram, all over Punjab, under Government of India's own, self-devised, legitimised operations like 'Operation Shudee Karan' and 'Operation Night Dominance', with reference to which India's Prime Minister boasted that we will kill 50,000 Sikh youths and the world will not even know about it, and Indian Punjab Police and Army Generals boasted that we will get so many Sikh females, including the relatives of the militants, pregnant by rape with half-Hindu babies that the militant gene will be wiped out, and the Sikh movement will finish itself; with not one officer facing arrest or sanction for these crimes, all conveniently excused by the most decadent, inhumane, and shameful law known to the history of man, i.e. TADA; that created not a virtual, but an actual police state, that provided, and continues to provide, unquestioned impunity for rapist cops to commit the most heinous crimes without any threat of sanction under the applaudable pretext of 'preventing terror'? 1989 onwards muslim genocide in Kashmir anyone? 2002 muslim genocide in Gujarat anyone? Muslim women gang raped by hindus, incidents that are collectively remembered with great fondness by the RSS 'sangh parivar', eulogised by right wing hindus all over the world; brazen, unashamedly communal crimes that went unsurprisingly went unpunished by the Gujarat State government, as it was itself complicit in the rapesand killings; but did wonders for Narendra Modi's popularity and ratings amongst the highly urban, well educated and hindu population of the state all the same, returning him to power an unprecedented number of times? Is this the kind of India that our shaheeds envisioned? Where mass murderers of minorities are celebrated by the electorate? Returned to power, like Indira Gundhi was, on a landslide of votes? 2009 christian genocide in orissa anyone? Punjab; Delhi; U.P.; Haryana; Kashmir; Gujarat; Odissa; Assam... I could list many more examples of India's self congratulatory post-1947 impunity for the perpetrators of state organised massacres but I would be here for the next seventy years. Do you think that the example set by the government of india has nothing to do with the mindset of the perverted indians that carry out these crimes? Do you fail to see that the example you set comes back to bite you? Kyun, bhai sahib; DAAL MEIN KUJH KAALA NAHIN LAGTA HAI? Sometimes, I hear all sorts of excuses for why, we, as a Quam, have been unable to get justice after all that was done to us and others like us in the name of the Union of India. One of the most common is that if we had a leader like Sant Jee, or that if His shaheedi had not been denied for 20 years, then "gabroo-an ne dharti halla-ke rakh-deni si gi" (a dhaddi's words, not mine). Don't even by mistake listen to a word of that sort of divisive rubbish. Not true. Not a word of it. In truth, there is only one reason why we didn't get justice for ourselves and the other minorities trampled under the boot of the ruling classes, that collectively form the majority, of the inhabitants of the Union of India. Because we weren't bothered.

^ oh my word. you put out a warning to our lot, and rather than take heed, they clamour, motion, deliberate, and jump up and down from floor to ceiling and back, demanding the evidence. "where is thy evidence, I say ye!" (try saying that in 'ye olde edwardian english' for fun.) "ju no gibb ebbidunss!" "i no lissunnn!" (say that in a good old classic uncle's broken english accent for some real muzzaa.) Let me assure you, that I know neither the shady lady, of dubious character, that happens to be in question, nor do I know the OP. However, I for one, do not doubt or demand the "ebbidunss!" for the allegation made, because: Firstly, I know that grooming by referral has being going on (by pak muslim groomers, usually via their sisters) way before you and I were born. Secondly, because I know that no indian girl is going to come forward and lay open her story of abuse for gossip-mongers, of the likes that the 99% outstanding majority of punjabi boys are, to read for their own entertainment and judge, whilst ruining her name, and her family's reputation in the community, in the process. and Thirdly, because I have seen enough of life to know what can take place when a young apnee gets out of her depth, with a few shady characters thrown into the mix. So if this has been the case with this young bibi, then it's hardly a surprise for me. In fact, I change my mind. Ignore everything I've said. Listen to nothing. Absolutely nothing. Nada. Now, go and hear it first hand from the handful of elders that have been putting their livelihoods on the line the last 30 years fighting the scums that take advantage of our young sisters, and then receiving the utmost privelige of hearing from ignorant illiterate aunties and uncles with their heads in the sand: "oh, but I haven't seen any of this happenning!" (Like it was a screening of a bollywood film that they missed, lol, the clowns...) Lastly, if that's not enough to satiate your desire for "ebbidunss!", then remember, that we are not in a court of law. Notwithstanding the fact, that I would sincerely like to see, the kinds of scum that get our young bibi's in way over their heads, in a court of law, getting banged to rights, although I can't see a lot of that happening anytime soon, due in part to our concept of "sharam".

^^ Not necessarily true. Undoubtedly, Baba Jaitha Jee is of the Mazhabi baradree. But both Shaheed of Garhi Chamkour Sahib Baba Sangat Singh Jee and Shaheed of Saka Chhote Sahibzadiyan di Shaheedi Baba Moti Ram Mehra are of the same baradree as Bhagat Baba Ravidas Jee.

From all I can see, the ravidassia baradree as a whole is very, very, very divided. So much so, that it is really, really, really sad. Sad, firstly, because the members of this community are the same as those blessed, beloved sons of Maharaj that He adopted as His own, when no-one, hindu, muslim, or otherwise, was willing to accept them. "Ranghrheta, Guru Ka Beta" "Inn Gareeb Sikhon Ko Dehon Patshahi Yaad Karen, Hamri Guruyai" "Sava Laakh Se Ek Laraon, Tabhe Gobind Singh Naam Taraon" Just a few days ago we collectively remembered that Magnificent, Amazing, Unparalleled and Unique test of tests, examination of examinations, when the Khalsa passed with flying colours: The Breathtaking Battle of Chamkaur Sahib. That Outstanding, Auspicious, Hallowed, and Unprecedented occasion in the history of modern man where Maharaj proved all His promises and more, when One Singh of Maharaj sought and obtained His agya to face one million Mughal soldiers on his own. Maharaj accepted the hukam of the Panj Singh Sahibaan, no questions asked, Sat Bachan, thus gifting His Patshahi to His Gareeb Sikhan at once. and; Maharaj chose His beloved beta, Shaheed Baba Sangat Singh Jee, of all the Singhs remaining, to receive the honour, privelige, and above all, Daat to adorn His Pavitar Kalgi. Sad, secondly, because these they continue to be denied the Daat that He intended for them. And Sad, thirdly, last, but not least, because most of them don't even know it.

Vahey Guroo! Sat Bachan. Dhan Teri Sikhee.

My assessment of the situation with regards the abject failure of the Sikhs to protect their own interests in the years leading up to the transfer of power and corresponding massacre... Is that the Sikhs at the time were always on a hiding to nothing from the moment they had the fallacy to imagine that their comparitively recently acquired economic power/wealth would automatically translate to the safeguarding of their own interests. (our ancestors weren't always so wealthy and had only really experienced wealth on a mass scale since around 1800) In summary, they, and their leaders, were simply waaay too over confident. They placed too much faith on others. Firstly, on the British, to honour their wealth, social status and history of service to the empire. (like they really cared) Secondly, on Gundhi & Nehru, the two of whom they miserably failed to understand, and the Hindus at large. Thirdly, you could add, on their erstwhile friends, companions and neighbours, the Muslims, whom they hadn't expected to take advantage of the hapless minority Sardar in the most indecent and cruel manner. In short, they trusted just about everyone except themselves and each other! Similar story eh. I'm quite sure that the proud recent ruler status of the minority Sikh nation could not have played less than a significant part in motivating all three of the above to some extent or other in successfully attempting to gain comeuppance at the expense of their former rulers by betraying the Sikhs so callously. What the Sikhs at the time really failed to realise... (unlike their not distant ancestors)... is that during times of political, social, economic turmoil... when a man doesn't know what is about to happen next let alone in 5, 10, 20 years time... Wealth and social status (in any form other than ability to acquire manpower and weapons) counts for SWEET F A. That's why they got battered before, during, and after 1947, except for the two weeks from the latter half of August 1947, when, with the not unconsiderable incitement, provocation, assistance and motivation of the Hindu RSS (I ain't about to pretend it ain't so), they managed to save some sort of face for the humiliating and quite unprecedented comprehensive loss they had suffered. Unfortunately, the Sikhs, on a massive scale, failed to learn from this hopeless episode. The saying goes "you've decided where to make your bed... so now lie in it." Therefore, they have continued, on the whole, to maintain the acquisition, retention, and creation of wealth, the major, if not, sole objective of their existence. They have mostly discarded the pursuit of halemi khalsa raaj for a mere survival existence founded on compliance and sometimes downright collaboration with the natural enemies of the path revealed by the SatGuru, whom they claim to follow. So SatGuru Maharaj has given them what they have asked for. I.e. Wealth. Not Justice. Which is quite fine. Because Maharaj has given them what they asked for. So everyone's happy. Right? Just one problem. That the natural consequence involved with this mentality, i.e. excessively materialistic behaviour and blind pursuit of wealth, is that, quite inevitably, they are consigning themselves to repeat the same mistake over and over again. Refer the jewish nation. Successful nations are those that learn and re-learn, and apply, and adapt to the changing situation accordingly. Those nations that fail to do this disappear off the map. This is evolution put into practice. Survival of the fittest. Anyway, it seems that the Sikh nation learnt nothing out of their holocaust in 1947. They have continued on the same track, making the same mistake, and I'm sure they will continue to. Which is a real shame, as it bears no relation to their ancestors that I read about. What happened to the businesses and vast landownings they lost in 1947. Did Maharaj feel pity on them and give it back? No, but they went all out to recover it all the same. There are so many obscenely rich Sikh millionaires with so much property but how many of them are bearing the best arms or even educating themselves or their children about their heritage and path? Sant jee woke up the Quom. Many elders still feel the loss of the leadership that he provided because it has never been replaced. He reminded us of our path and he spelt out for us how to put it into practice. Not slogans, not words. Actions, and deeds. However, whether the Sikhs will finally accept the 52 Hukamnamay of The Tenth King, which the great Sant Jee held so dear, is a matter I will leave for another day.

this would be the noble, righteous, and virtuous thing to do in the current situation. of that there is little doubt. however, it probably is not the wisest action in political reality. I fear the consequences for panjab of taking such a step. the political climate in india ever since the bloody partition of 1947 has refused to allow our appointed Jathedar to freely operate the right of our own Guru's jurisdiction with regards the affairs of our own faith via Akal Takht. it is our deep misfortune that the elders missed the boat when they possessed the invitation. unfortunately, the truth is that Jathedar of Akal Takht is now subject to the same ghulami that every citizen of that lord forsaken country is. it is really easy to doubt the Jathedar from the UK. you only need to take one step out of shree harimandir sahib to realise that sikhs don't even control their holy city, to understand how difficult it is for any sikh representative to effectively advocate for the sikhs. our rulers are on our doorstep. our leaders walk a tightrope. the political consequences of such an unprecedented and bold move may be too high for this to even get past the Jathedar to the chief minister. let's not kid ourselves; he calls the shots. we have just about survived a holocaust that cost millions of lives, our wealth and most of all our honour and dignity and we are currently in the grip of a drugs war that shows all the signs of being able to decide whether or not the farming community that forms the backbone of our population will be physically able to produce another generation or not. congress has shown time and time again that it will not tolerate the spiritual authority of the sikhs and we know only too well that it has all the power to enforce its threat of not permitting the sikhs to enjoy anything other the status of slaves in india. they are walking a real tightrope in india. I do not envy them one bit; trying at all cost to avoid another state genocide, fighting a life and death battle against the menace of drugs that threatens to finish off our youths, and attempting to peacefully secure getting as many rights back from the centre for panjab including control of our own river waters. all this while our enemy sits on our doorstep taunting us. lest we forget.

yyyup. hic

However, I have noted a distinct lack of information being disseminated about Brar's alleged war crimes. Apart from the second Sikh Channel programme on the day of Brar's miraculously fast recovery and release from care, which was presented in Panjabi, and featured calls from eyewitnesses to the - mass murder ordered by Brar and eagerly carried out by his soldiers of thousands of pilgrims of all ages, religions and backgrounds, - gang rape by Indian Army soldiers of female pilgrims, including newly married women, mothers, and the teachers who had brought whole classes of schools to Shree Harimandir Sahib to commemorate the anniversary of the selfless martyrdom of a true Guru who upheld the value of Truth over that of his own life, the founder of the Temple of God Himself, - and deliberate damage to totally unrelated parts of the Shree Harimandir Sahib complex, including the Sikh Reference Library there has been little discussion of the excesses of the Indian Armed Forces led by Brar who miserably failed to acheive their professed objective for the Attack as well as to uphold their duty to according to Indian Law to protect the right to Human Life. Obviously, the information is out there, otherwise people talking about the atrocities would not know. So my question is, is there substantial documented evidence available of the atrocities which occurred? By documented, this doesn't necessarily have to mean written in English, although it would help, as audio and Panjabi articles are equally valuable.