chatanga1

Thanks. You're right. i didn't take Sikh gender imbalance into account when I wrote the post but it certainly would make things worse at this current time. The gender imbalance in Panjab is tainted more by urban Hindus than rural Sikhs. And we are kind of fighting for our survival at this time. Being 1.8% of a country's population is not working in our favour. Panjab's Sikh percentage has gone from around 73% in 1966 to 59% in 2015. There are some things you don't need rules for. Like I don't really care if I put my left trouser leg on first or not. Any Sikh who enters into multiple marriage scenario should know exactly what they are getting into and why.

No, this is just simple a crime against humanity.

I don't think that any Sikh believes that any of the Gurus took opium. Guru Arjan Dev Ji sat on a red-hot plate and said "tera bhana meetha lage." But Guru Sahiban were above pain/pleasure whereas only rare Sikhs are. Most Sikhs (inc me) are not. So whether the Guru's did or not, is not for us. The Taksal is not a sub division of Nirmal Panth, neither is it a samprdai. It is a taksal, which is different. Good point. If parchaar were to end and the onus would be on people to learn gurmat for themselves, our 20 odd million Sikhs worldwide wouldn't even be 1 million in one generations time. Parchaar has been done from the times of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's childhood right uptil now. It's because of ineffective parchar that we are in the mess we are in right now.

Yes that's true that there are more males than females in Panjab, although I'm not sure of the statistics for Sikhs. These situations would only happen between brothers, not men of different households. What would be practical now?

Bit harsh isn't it Dal lol? I listen to katha a lot. I make it a routine to listen to one sakhi from Panth Parkash every time I workout, or doing some gardening etc. But I like to read the granths myself at other times. There are sometimes passages that need a little more explanation than the straight textual translation and katha is where it helps. There are some passages from Guru Granth Sahib which are at odds with each other and Gurmat as we know it today. For instance Kes is one of the 5 ks and primary nishani of a Sikh yet Bhagat Kabir writes: ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart. ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥ You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25|| How many Sikhs do you think reached this standard? Gurbani itself says that rare are those who realised Sri Akal Purkh. So although we have sakhia of Bhai Mani Singh etc Baba Deep Singh etc without mentioning in any way that they took afeem, there is a mention of Sikhs taking afeem from 1711 all the way up to 1840s. In those times, afeem and bhang, (opiates and cannabis) were used by armies a lot. the Moghals and Turks used it because their empire was large and they needed to cover large distances quickly without tiring. Whole armies would consume bhang to help them do this. Armies would consume bhang to reduce the effects of tiredness before battles. My relative told that in Panjab sometimes biharis would be given bhang to get them through a hard days physical work. Opiates (used today by armies in the refined form of morphine) were widely used for those soldiers who suffered battle injuries. Soldiers would recieve slash wounds, stabbing wounds and severed fingers/hands/arms. These are horrific injuries to suffer and opiates played a huge part in the nursing of such injuries. I agree. Panth Parkash doesn't cover any yudh saying the Sikhs were fearful. It goes the other way and says that Singhs were actively looking for warfare. Today some Sikhs think that the medicines we have today were there in the Guru's times. But why get someone to stab you? they could go to jail for that. He should stab himself to feel the effect. This video explains a lot about afeem and its puratan uses.

The modern view is very different from pre-British days, where is was fine for men to take more than one wife. Many Sikhs did, and it came to a stutter, when the British took over and tried to force their one man-one woman rule on their colonies. In India, the Hindus and Sikhs bought their colonial masters views wholesale, but the Muslims didn't, and resisted any changes to their religion. After 1947, Congress introduced the family law, where it was illegal to marry under 18 and a man could only have one living wife. But they made special provisions for Muslims. Quite ironic seeing as nehru saw himself as a secularist. The British also tried this marriage formula on african tribes/colonies where they met a great deal of resistance, to the point where they gave up. An old tradition that has all but disappeared from Sikhs, is that if a husband were to die, his wife would be married to a sibling closest in age, regardless of whether that sibling was married already. There were 2 resons for this. Firstly, any children would kept secure in the family unit. Secondly, if the widow were to be married to another family, she would not take any children with her, so the children would essentially lose their father AND mother, and also the cost of re-marrying the widow into another family would be borne by the husband's family, not her pre-marriage family. So, it was a good solution. Widow re-marriage was also encouraged by the Gurus. The relationship should be the same and a Sikh shouldn't end his association with his first wife, if he were to take another. Yes, because the promises are not made to each other but to the Guru. A side note: Sikh population is really dwindling in Panjab, and having multiple wives would be a great way of increasing population percentage.

The truth is sadly, that young Sikhs are not into kirtan in a major way. Very few Young Sikhs understand the language or the raag etc especially in the west. It's one of the aspects that I have been thinking about recently. How the Gurdwaras should do a year of nothing but english talks in Gurdwaras in get younger Sikhs more engaged. Kirtan, Dhadi waran, Kavishri and Katha in Panjabi, rare young Sikhs are interested in these. Maybe it's time to focus on something different that will actually make a difference.

Very well put!

Sikhunit have them on their youtube page. https://www.youtube.com/user/wagwanblad/videos

And then take half the house when she wants to divorce you.

Rape laws in india are quite peculiar. If a man and woman get jiggy before marriage and then the man refuses to marry her for any reason she can lay a claim of rape on him even if she wanted it at the time. And the police will prosecute it exactly as a rape. It was designed to stop men proposing marriage and then abandoning the women after they got what they wanted. On the other hand, if a woman were to get caught with a man pre-marriage it is very common for her to claim she was raped/forced. The laws are not like they are in the UK etc. Quick edit: Asking the perpetrator to marry his victim was very common in yesteryear because parents would fear no-one would marry their daughter if she wasn't a virgin, even if it was through no fault of her own. This happens even in Panjab amongst Sikhs as well.

Don't need to watch the whole video to realise this daktar karminder phd boston is a stain on Gurmat. There are many mentions of sakhis in it. Not with a beginning, middle or end in the conventional sense but there are many sakhis which have some mention in Guru Granth Sahib. If you had read my post (lengthy as it is) then you would have seen for yourself that Bhai Sunder, writes the last days of Guru Sahib as if it were a sakhi. Then why would Guru Sahibuse the names of the Siddhs asking him questions and then responding to them, when Guru Sahib could just have written a shabad to explain evertthing. Only those with an agenda define stories as "made up." Historical events are not known as sakhis - they are known as itihaas. Sakhis are all about the Guru Sahibs and their teachings, and how those teachings actually came about. Great for you then. Tell us how and why Sikhs began to have "Singh/Kaur" in their names. Seen the film. Possibly, but enemies of Gurmat don't really deserve better.

Dal, where did you get those scans from? I can't find anything on the net.

Pooran ka Khooh (The well of Bhagat Puran) still exists in Sialkot today. The visitors there are more or less muslims who go there to pray for Bhagat Poorans benevolence in getting a son. I think Qawwalli is sung there daily, if memory serves correct.

Sakhis help visually drive a message home.

Take your time, read and digest my rebuttal to his work. It is lengthy but worth knowing when you come up against people like daktar karminder phd boston and his pet rats on Sick Parasite Network.

While the above is true, I think it is only one aspect of Gurbani. That means that while Gurbani is applicable in different scenarios, it also addresses the events of those times. Gurbani has a lot of layers. This is the answer to Karminders nonsense: Then the great doctor goes on to write "Gurbani is Sarab Sanji; by which is meant it is NEVER occasion, location, era or person specific. This means that while Gurbani is always composed at some location, may be composed to draw from specific occasions, and may be uttered in the presence of person or persons – the composition is NEVER MEANT for any specific location, any particular occasion or for a certain person(s). ALL of Gurbani is composed for use in ALL locations, ALL occasions, ALL eras and ALL persons. Gurbani is spiritual in nature and meant for the WHOLE of humanity throughout time. Specifying Gurbani for specific locations, occasions and person(s) is a human failing. It arises from our failure to explore the true spiritual messages of Gurbani. It originates out of our folly of wanting to understand Gurbani only in the literal sense." Here is the doctor is partially correct. Gurbani is spiritual in nature and meant for the whole of humanity throughout time. However Gurbani is not restricted from, neither does it abandon the "uthanka" or background to such writings. Gurbani has many levels, and the historical aspect of Gurbani is also valid. Coming back on the great doctors thought that Gurbani is never occasion, location era or person specific, I would like to bring these lines of shabads to the reader so they can see if doctor karminder is correct.: ਫਰੀਦਾ ਪੰਖ ਪਰਾਹੁਣੀ ਦੁਨੀ ਸੁਹਾਵਾ ਬਾਗੁ ॥ Bhagat Farid Ji Maharaj bani starts a lot with "Farida" where he is telling/educating himself. Did BHagat Ji tell these with others in mind? Possibly but the immediate instruction is to himself. So in the first instance this gurbani and many others of Bhagat Ji are person specific. But when we read them are WE telling Bhagat Farid what he must do, in order to find God?" ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Aasaa, Fifth Mehla: ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਮਤਾ ਜਿ ਪਤ੍ਰੀ ਚਲਾਵਉ ॥ First, they advised me to send a letter. ਦੁਤੀਏ ਮਤਾ ਦੁਇ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਪਹੁਚਾਵਉ ॥ Second, they advised me to send two men. ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਏ ਮਤਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਉ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ Third, they advised me to make the effort and do something. ਮੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੁਹੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ But I have renounced everything, and I meditate only on You, God. ||1|| This shabad by Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj is person specific. Which Sikh who has read this shabad sent a letter and then subsequently two men? To whom did he send them? ਕਹਤ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਤਿਲੋਚਨ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਪਾਲਨ ਪਉਢੀਅਲੇ ॥ Says Naam Dayv, listen, O Trilochan: the child is laid down in the cradle. ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਬਿਰੂਧੀ ਚੀਤੁ ਸੁ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਰਾਖੀਅਲੇ ॥੪॥੧॥ Its mother is at work, inside and outside, but she holds her child in her thoughts. ||4||1|| Here Bhagat Ji is addressing Bhagat Trilochan directly. It's still a lesson that we as humans use, but the fact is that it is not addressed to us all at that specific time. It was specifically to one person. ਮੇਰੇ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਪੁਤ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਮੇਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਣਾ ਆਉ ਮੈ ਪਾਸਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ Listen O my Sikhs, my children and Siblings of Destiny; it is my Lord's Will that I must now go to Him. ਹਰਿ ਭਾਣਾ ਗੁਰ ਭਾਇਆ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਕਰੇ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ The Guru gladly accepted the Lord's Will, and my Lord God applauded Him. So when we read the above lines from Ramkali Sadd, are we assuming the title and rank of Guru? Or is it Sunder saying it for a specific moment in the Guru's Life? From the above few lines it is apparent that Gurbani does not share Doctor karminders views of what gurbani should be.

This man Karminder is a malaysian missionary parasite. He is a nindak of everything from Sri Dasme Patshah's granth Sahib to naam simran to every single sakhi there is on Sikhi. That should be the least of your concerns brother. Focus on the lies coming out his mouth first. Read this rebuttal I wrote some years ago to his Babur Bani lies: (https://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/19698-sick-parasite-network-spn-ਜੈਸੀ-ਮੈ-ਆਵੈ-ਖਸਮ-ਕੀ-ਬਾਣੀ/ (It is quite long) This is another shabad that has come on the Sick Parasite Network, written by a learned doctor of that site - "Dr Karminder Dhillon." He is a great inspiration to his pet rat aman, who is an admin on that site, and is always looking to host his mentors thoughts on that forum. I want to have a look at some of this great doctors thoughts and add my own thoughts to it. I will be posting the great doctors thoughts in black and my own in blue so readers can distinguish. Dr Karminder starts by saying " Shabd is composed by Guru Nanak ji in Tilang Rag and is recorded on page 722 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji." This Shabd stands high on the list of “wrongly translated Shabds." I always wonder how did the Panth manage to follow the wrong translations for centuries until Sikhs of Dr karminders calibre were born to take us out of the darkness and into the light. The Shabd is further (wrongly) described as “Babbur Vanee” by many translators. Babbur Vanee means it is composed for and narrated to Mogul conqueror Babur. Babur Vanee further means it predicts the end of the Mogul rule in India. - Babar Bani is just an informal title given to it, to distinguish it from the other shabads. When we hear the name "Babar Bani" then we understand it to be talking about this particular shabad. That is all. There is no conspiracy. Just as the "Lavan" shabads haven't been given the title of "Lavan Bani" but whenever we talk about the "Lavan" it is clearly understood that we are talking about which shabads. Similarly there are many shabads by Guru Nanak Dev Ji which are addressed with the word "Vanjara" in them. These also are not titled "Vanjara banis" but we understand them to be about the Vanjara shabads of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. You can see from the above thoughts of the great doctor, the depth of intellect, and the reasons why he is has god-like status on Sick Parasite Network. Then the great doctor goes on to write "Gurbani is Sarab Sanji; by which is meant it is NEVER occasion, location, era or person specific. This means that while Gurbani is always composed at some location, may be composed to draw from specific occasions, and may be uttered in the presence of person or persons – the composition is NEVER MEANT for any specific location, any particular occasion or for a certain person(s). ALL of Gurbani is composed for use in ALL locations, ALL occasions, ALL eras and ALL persons. Gurbani is spiritual in nature and meant for the WHOLE of humanity throughout time. Specifying Gurbani for specific locations, occasions and person(s) is a human failing. It arises from our failure to explore the true spiritual messages of Gurbani. It originates out of our folly of wanting to understand Gurbani only in the literal sense." Here is the doctor is partially correct. Gurbani is spiritual in nature and meant for the whole of humanity throughout time. However Gurbani is not restricted from, neither does it abandon the "uthanka" or background to such writings. Gurbani has many levels, and the historical aspect of Gurbani is also valid. Coming back on the great doctors thought that Gurbani is never occasion, location era or person specific, I would like to bring these lines of shabads to the reader so they can see if doctor karminder is correct.: ਫਰੀਦਾ ਪੰਖ ਪਰਾਹੁਣੀ ਦੁਨੀ ਸੁਹਾਵਾ ਬਾਗੁ ॥ Bhagat Farid Ji Maharaj bani starts a lot with "Farida" where he is telling/educating himself. Did BHagat Ji tell these with others in mind? Possibly but the immediate instruction is to himself. So in the first instance this gurbani and many others of Bhagat Ji are person specific. But when we read them are WE telling Bhagat Farid what he must do, in order to find God?" ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Aasaa, Fifth Mehla: ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਮਤਾ ਜਿ ਪਤ੍ਰੀ ਚਲਾਵਉ ॥ First, they advised me to send a letter. ਦੁਤੀਏ ਮਤਾ ਦੁਇ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਪਹੁਚਾਵਉ ॥ Second, they advised me to send two men. ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਏ ਮਤਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਉ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ Third, they advised me to make the effort and do something. ਮੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੁਹੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ But I have renounced everything, and I meditate only on You, God. ||1|| This shabad by Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj is person specific. Which Sikh who has read this shabad sent a letter and then subsequently two men? To whom did he send them? ਕਹਤ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਤਿਲੋਚਨ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਪਾਲਨ ਪਉਢੀਅਲੇ ॥ Says Naam Dayv, listen, O Trilochan: the child is laid down in the cradle. ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਬਿਰੂਧੀ ਚੀਤੁ ਸੁ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਰਾਖੀਅਲੇ ॥੪॥੧॥ Its mother is at work, inside and outside, but she holds her child in her thoughts. ||4||1|| Here Bhagat Ji is addressing Bhagat Trilochan directly. It's still a lesson that we as humans use, but the fact is that it is not addressed to us all at that specific time. It was specifically to one person. ਮੇਰੇ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਪੁਤ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਮੇਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਣਾ ਆਉ ਮੈ ਪਾਸਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ Listen O my Sikhs, my children and Siblings of Destiny; it is my Lord's Will that I must now go to Him. ਹਰਿ ਭਾਣਾ ਗੁਰ ਭਾਇਆ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਕਰੇ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ The Guru gladly accepted the Lord's Will, and my Lord God applauded Him. So when we read the above lines from Ramkali Sadd, are we assuming the title and rank of Guru? Or is it Sunder saying it for a specific moment in the Guru's Life? From the above few lines it is apparent that Gurbani does not share Doctor karminders views of what gurbani should be. The great doctor karminder then writes : "We shall start by looking at the final verse ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਸੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ ॥ ੨ ॥ Sach Kee Banee Nanak Akhey Sach Sunayesee Sach Kee Bella. Sach – The Creator. Sach Kee Banee – God Connecting Banee. Akhey – Pronounces. Sunayesee – Discourses. Bella – Time. Sach Kee Bella – Creator Given Time; Lifetime as Given by the Creator; ALL times, forever. Nanak Pronounces God Connecting Banee and Conducts Godly Discourse at every God Given Moment." This is entirely his own interpretation. How do we know this is wrong? Because Guru Sahib conducted his life in as one whole given moment in God. But yet Guru Sahib still slept, travelled, worked etc. During these times how was Guru Sahib conducting Godly discourse? Guru Sahib only conducted Godly discourse at certain times and places. Lets look at Prof Sahib Singh's interpretation: ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ = ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ। ਆਖੈ = ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਚਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸੁਣਾਇਸੀ = ਸੁਣਾਂਦਾ ਰਹੇਗਾ, ਉਚਾਰਦਾ ਰਹੇਗਾ, ਆਖਦਾ ਰਹੇਗਾ। ਬੇਲਾ = ਸਮਾ, ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਦਾ ਸਮਾ। ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ = ਸਿਮਰਨ, ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਸਮਾ ਹੈ ॥੨॥੩॥੫॥ (ਜੀਵ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਰੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਮਸਤ ਹੋ ਕੇ ਉਮਰ ਅਜਾਈਂ ਗਵਾ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ) ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾਂ (ਇਸ ਵੇਲੇ ਭੀ) ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ ਹੀ) ਇਹ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਰਹੇਗਾ, ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਇਹ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਦਾ ਸਮਾ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਹੀ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹੈ ॥੨॥੩॥੫॥ Faridkoti teeka translates it as : ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਸਚੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ (ਬਾਣੀ) ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣ ਂਧੁਰਿ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਆਈਂ (ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ) ਸਚੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕੀ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਮੇਂ ਸਵੇਰੇ ਸੋ ਸਚ ਹੀ ਅਸੀ ਸੁਣਾਂਵਦੇ ਹਾਂ ਔ ਸੁਣਾਵੈਂਗੇ॥੨॥੫॥ Dr Sant Singh Khalsa in english translates this as : Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time. ||2||3||5|| Now what karminder is saying is somewhat based on these but he gives a confused message to the reader. "Nanak Pronounces God Connecting Banee..." since when did Guru Nanak pronounce any bani that wasn't god connecting? karminder is trying to confuse the reader by saying that Guru Sahib at times, prounced gurbani that wasn't god-connecting. Dr. Karminder Singh Dhillion Phd(Boston) then further writes about the whole shabad and towards the end says : "TWELVETH VERSE ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ Avan Athathrey Jaan Satanvey Hor Bhee Uthsee Marad Ka Chela. Avan – Coming. Athathrey – 78. Jaan – Goes. Satanvey – 97. Hor – More, Many, Others. Bhee – Also. Uthsee – Raise, Come to the forefront. Marad – Male, Masculine, Man-liness. Chela – Disciple, Follower, Subscriber. This is the verse that has been subject to a great deal of wrong translations. A Commentary is therefore necessary to first critique the existing faulty translations. The (wrong) translation is: Coming in seventy-eight (1578 Sammat, 1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1597 Sammat, 1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up. (Sant Singh MD D Translation.) Other translators – Prof Sahib Singh, and Manmohan Singh mention Emperor Babur as coming in 1578 and being defeated by Sher Shah Suree in 1597. The Fareedkot Vedic Teeka says “the Moghuls will come in 1578 and go in 1597 and that the “Mard Ka Chela” refers to Guru Gobind Singh ji. COMMENT ONE: All the above translators translate the words ATHUTREY (78) and SATANVEY (97) to mean 1579 and 1597 Bikarmee. How the 15 came to be added is anyone’s guess. Because 15 is NOT mentioned in the Verse, If we want to add 15 on our own, why not 1478 and 1479? Or 1678 and 1679? After “assuming” that 79 and 97 is 1579 and 1597 Sammat respectively the years are then converted by the translators from Bikarmee (Indian calendar) to the western year 1521 and 1540 AD. Then the translators say these are the years Babur came to Saidpur 1521 AD (where the massacre took place) and that Babur WILL GO in 1540 AD." According to the great daktors thinking, the translation including the "15" is wrong. I can't beleive how Boston is handing out PHD willy nilly. I should get one. The text in Gurbani says 78 and 97 but if we are reading or understanding this 5 centuries later we need to add that "15" to know what time period we are talking about. For example, when we talk about partition now, we can just refer to it as 47. As I ask old people "Where you alive in 47?" Everyone knows that this is a direct reference to 1947 because 2047 hasn't happened yet. But in 500 years time will people still refer to it as 47? No, because it will not be clear. They will refer to it as 1947. The commentators on this line of Gurbani have correctly added the 15 to make it clearer for the reader. So the great PHD doctor starts off on a very weak foot here. "SEVEN BASIC things are WRONG with such translations. 1) They show Guru Nanak making a PREDICTION of worldly matters (that Babar or Mogul Raj WILL go in 1540 AD). Our Gurus never do such. Predicting the future is not a Gurmat Principle." Predicting the future for a Sikh is not gurmat principle, but for the Guru it is no effort. Guru Sahib has correctly told of the going of (end of) the moghals. So given that this shabad is focused entirely on an actual historical event, seen in the first person by the Guru, and written about factually by the Guru, it is unable to be refuted by the great PHD doctor karminder that it is against gurmat principles. We Sikhs are not the same as the Guru. Guru Gobind Singh Ji drew his sword and asked for 5 heads. Why don't Sikhs do that same thing now when doing khande ki pahul sinchar? Simple. We are Sikhs, the Guru is the Guru. "2) Such translations make spiritually rich Gurbani into a ocassion specific “historical” narrative. This is never the nature of Gurbani. Gurbani is SARAB SANJHEE – for ALL ocassion, all persons, all locations etc. Most importantly Gurbani is spiritual." This has been answered above in the composition of Ramkali Sadd. Ramkali Sadd IS a specific historical narrative. So it is very apparent that Doctor Karminder Dhillon PHD Boston is wrong. The majority of Gurbani is spiritual but not all. "3) Such translations portray Guru Nanak as inconsistent. The translator says Guru Nanak depicts the “CRUELTY of Babur to innocent women and children” and YET calls BABUR as a MARD !! How is Babur an invader a MARD? And whose CHELA? What’s so MARD about massacring innocent people?" Mard in persian means "man." That is all. Guru Sahib describes Babar as a man. Nothing else regarding his military prowess, personal habits, political standing etc. Chela means follower. All Guru Sahib is stating here is that one of Babar's followers will take his place. "4) Such translations makes it seem that Guru Nanak got his history wrong !!! Babur entered India in 1526 AD. The battle of Panipat took place in 1526. That’s the year he becomes emperor. So the massacre in Saidpur was AFTER 1526. The year 1521 AD for ATHUTREY by the translator is off by 5 years! How could Guru Nanak have made this mistake? Babur died on Dec 26 1530. So the year 1540 AD for ATHANVEY (the year Babur left Saidpur !!) is off by 10 years!! He was already in his grave." The first thing to note here is the Gurbani mentions no names. The line is " ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ." There is no reference to Babar in name but as the shabad tells us the "wedding party" came from Khorasan at the same time Babar did, we know it is refering to Babur and his Mongol army. All the Gurbani tells us is that "they came in 78 (1521) and will return in 1540. So this has nothing to do with the lifetime of Babur itself. That is a very important thing to note here. This is where the PHD Boston of Karminder Dhillon has erred. Babur actually entered Panjab way before in 1519 according to his autobiography. He scored victories and took some land but then had to return to Kabul to quell a rebellion there. His meagre force left in Panjab was then defeated in an uprising. He re-entered Panjab in 1521. The sacking of Saidpur was in 1526. It could hardly be called a battle. There was feeble or no resistance at all. Babur had used Saidpur as a warning to those who stood in his way. he made an example of Saipur to show the rulers of Hindustan his ruthlessness. The Rt Hon Doctor karminder dhillon PHD Boston then writes: "The shabd is wholly spiritual. It uses multiple metaphors – marriage, junj, joree, daan, mighty human beings, power full beings etc etc. Guru ji also used IDIOMS. We need to understand the context of these metaphors and get to the spiritual messages. That is how we interpreted the entire Shabd as above. This particular verse is NO EXCEPTION. In English we may say SCORES come and DOZENS go. One score is 20. And one dozen is 12. This means whatever is being referred to comes and goes APLENTY. IT DOES NOT mean someone particular came in 1820 and went in 1912!!!! In our everyday language we say SAU AIYE TEY SAU GAYEY. SAU is one hundred. Or TEREY VARGEY KAYEE HAZAAR DEKHEY. Or TEREY VARGEY CHATEE (36) AIYEY. These numbers are used idiomatically to portray unspecific multitudes. The shabd uses the numbers BOTH idiomatically to portray MULTITIDES and poetically to be within the poetic confines of the verses before and after. ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ Avan Athathrey Jaan Satanvey Hor Bhee Uthsee Marad Ka Chela. Avan – Coming. Athathrey – 78, metaphor for unspecified multiples. Jaan – Goes. Satanvey – 97; metaphor for unspecific multiples. Hor – More, Many, Others. Bhee – Also. Uthsee – Raise, Come to the forefront. Marad – Male, Masculine. Chela – Disciple, Follower, Believer, Worshipper. Unspecified Multiples Will Come and Multiple More Will Depart as Worshippers of Masculine Prowess. (Yet the Hukm of the Creator Will Remain as Permanent). " To me, this just sums up the clutching of straws to build up a straw man argument. Using a specific non rounded number is NOT part of everyday talk. We use, and indeed Gurbani uses numbers like a hundred, thousands, and lakhs etc. But it never uses numbers like 78, 97, 146, 2685, 743872 etc. Using rounded numbers to portray a particular aspect or point is normal in any language. But to try and use "78" and "97" for unspecified numbers is just nonsensical. But those rats like that admin aman on SPN live for this kind of nonsense. The great doctor then ends with some of his musings on what gurbani should be with : "COMMENT ON THE NOTION OF SARAB SANJHEE BANEE. When we say Gurbanee is NEVER occasion, location, time or person specific – we are saying the messages are NOT meant for a particular location, occasion, time or individual. We are saying ALL of Gurbani is meant for ALL of humanity for ALL times." Again this is not bourne out by the inclusion of Ramkali Sadd. Although there is great teachings in that shabad for the benefit of humankind, there is no denying that the writing was an occasion and person specific event. I wonder why it is, that these PHD's and ilk feel that there is a need to distort each and every aspect of Gurmat to their own particular thoughts. We had Angy on here some months ago doing it, and they have no shame in doing it. Plenty have. I have on Sick Parasite Network, but they only ban you when barmy karmy is exposed. Did you? And what did you find ?

They may come back with western names like "Jack Harris" and try telling us we are going behind the bar because we haven't paid our taxes.

If you have listened to the katha of Panth Parkash, I don't know how you can say that there is no such thing as chamatkaar.

Only cos it made him money. Anupam Kher has also rallied to the bjp line.

We all want this but the focus should have been on the Akalis esp badal and son who have misused the panth for their own politics. If Giani Harpreet Singh or previous Jathedars couldn't do anything about these two, what chance do they have against a mammoth organisation like the RSS? Or military titan like the Indian Army?

There is the method of carbon dating but for that to happen a piece of the Granth would have to be surrendered which is why many Sikhs are against this. handritten saroops would have the scribes name and the date it was completed sometimes along with the place of completion.

Sometimes I wonder what world young Sikhs live in. These petitions have no sway over Sikh institutions. Yet people waste their time with them. I don't mean that to say any of you who support this are bad, just very unsure of how things work. We Sikhs always seem to start the fight top down, rather than bottom up.

When ink printing became more accessible, there was a decision made by SGPC to move away from hand-written saroops which was costly and time-consuming, and employ printing techniques instead. Because obviously the printed saroops would then be 100% replicas, and the SGPC knowing that there were diffferences between the hand-written saroops (not in terms of bani or numbering etc but spelling mistakes) they decided to proof-read all available saroops and decide on any anomalies between them. The team found some 570 differences between the saroops they perused. The modus operandi was along the lines of how often it featured in the saroops and if it was in a minority it would be omitted, and if it was more even, the team would then discuss the difference and decide whether it should be included or not in the standard saroop. The original saroop of Guru Arjan Dev Ji is with the Sodhis at Kartarpur but that would have no bearing on this topic as it was well-before Guru Gobind Singh KJi's time. The Damdami Bir, as well as the 4 saroops of Baba Deep Singh Ji have been lost to history, although there are certain places which claim to hold them. We can only go by the most historical saroops really and of those I have little idea of whether it is contained. Many moons ago my Vidya Guru told me that these two lines were written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Panjabdigitallibrary holds a lot of puratan saroops of SGGS, I guess it would be a start to browse some of them. Also if you know any places that hold historical saroops you could get them to look.