Where were Nihungs in 1984?

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

I will readily admit that I have not read the Dasam Granth, so I cannot confirm or deny your quotation of the Hikayat. If you have a link to the full Hikayat, I would be more than happy to read it and discuss the matter further.

And just for your reference, poppy-husk would be opium, not sukha (marijuana). So this verse, though still against the principles of Gurmat, has no evidence of a sukha-based(marijuana) drink in it.

[Jagroop Singh]

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Sadh Sangat Jio,

Veer / Bhain 'ms514' has made some highly relevant points - additionally let's consider the following:

POINT 1 - Without getting into the authenticity of Dasam Granth, EVERYONE accepts that it was never personally ordained as Guru by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee. It was apparently the 'Akali Nihangs' (the 'followers') who placed it upon such a pedestal, along with 'Sarbloh Granth', directly alongside Siree Guru Granth Sahib Jee. This is the 'Akali Nihangs' own admission. Ask yourself since when should the cart decide where the horse should lead it! i.e. the followers decide and overide what their leader ordains.

POINT 2 - Keeping Point 1 in mind, if 'Hikayat' mentions the consumption of drugs, then this is not to be taken as fact. This is simply because Siree Guru Sahib Jee says, via Bhagat Kabir Sahib Jee, that we are to stay away from cannabis. The question is do the 'Akali Nihangs' not view the Word of Bhagats as equal to the rest of GurBani? In other words, do they have a 'two-tier respect' approach concerning Siree Guru Granth Sahib Jee? This question was in part raised earlier by a Veer but remains, somewhat conspicuously, unanswered.

POINT 3 - It must be remembered that cannabis' active ingredient is THC which operates upon a psycho-active level i.e. alters the way we perceive, feel and react to sensory stimulation. To argue that Siree Guru Sahib Jee ordained that such a state of mind was neccesary for the Khalsa, above and beyond the Beant Power of Naam, is in my opinion sheer ignora

nce or stupidity and is borne out of a complete lack of faith in GurSikhi. Are we saying that the Khalsa Akaal Purakh Ki Fauj, created complete by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee through Vahiguru's Beant Shakti, were lacking mental strength, physical prowess etc. and needed a 'drug-induced' boost?

Can the relevant protaganists reply.

When one steps back in an indifferent manner, it becomes obvious that this preoccupation with cannabis is nothing but Shaivite influence, one of the unsavoury by-products of the endemic disintegration of the Khalsa philosophy, during the Ranjit Singh period. It seems that the 'Akali Nihangs' of this period began to forget their true origins and the cohesiveness of Siree Guru Sahib's teachings.

Out of interest, in the 'Hikayat' the following lines appear:

`Oh, Saki, give me the cup full of green liquid,

`So that I may keep the secret enshroud.(178)

`Oh Saki! Give me the greenish wine of Europe,

`Which I may need on the day of war.(179)(10)

Why is the Nasha referred to as 'the greenish wine of Europe'?

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

[Jagroop Singh]

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Dear Veer(s) who have supported the use of Bhang,

Please, if you have the time, rejoin this thread.

Thanks.

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

[Gupti]

Fateh Jagroop bhaji

Whether Bhang should be allowed in Sikhi is not what I am debating. Cannabis was used by many Shaheeds in history.

The authenticity of Dasam Granth is beyond my knowledge so I cannot give an opinon.

But the third point that you made can also be directed at tea, coffee and Cola. All alter the way we perceive, feel and react to sensory stimulation.

(One also has to realise that only a small amount of the leaves are required to make "Shaheedi Degh", therefore we cannot compare tea/coffee/etc with someone high on smoking weed)

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Fateh Jagroop bhaji

Whether Bhang should be allowed in Sikhi is not what I am debating.  Cannabis was used by many Shaheeds in history.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Quite a statement! Can you name those Shaheeds who took Cannabis and also give references which show that these Shaheeds took cannabis.

Thanks

GurFateh

Bikramjit Singh

[Gupti]

Certainly. Apologies for not clarifying how I came to this view.

Off the top of my head works such as Ratan Singh Bhangu's Prachin Panth Prakash mention sukha. Nihang Singhs consumed sukha before going into battle. Many Nihang Singhs became Shaheeds in these battles.

[Mkhalsa]

Even if canabis was prepared in the old days. why not look at why? it obviously wasnt for pleasure!! it was most likely a pain killer when one is wounded and in a lot of pain. And most likely it was used sparingly and prepared with a special method, ie what nangs use to get high today.

but in todays world we have drugs that will work much better, without altering your state too much and in smaller doses, ie morphine for bad pain or acetaminophine (paraceautimol for you uk people)

so marijuana has no use today other than to get high off of and act like an <banned word filter activated>!

[Jagroop Singh]

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

The points raised by Veer MKhalsa Ji are interesting - certainly as an ayurvedic treatement, Bhang may have been used to treat specific injuries i.e. just as other botanical/herbal ingredients would have and still are used for a specific outcome.

It certainly would have been conclusive if better historical sources existed which detailed the exact extent of Bhang's use amongst those 'Akali Nihungs', its specific applications and the intended outcomes. But as Veer MKhalsa Ji states, today there are many arguably much superior pain suppresants available...which don't effect our psychological state.

Nonetheless, lets always keep in mind what Siree Guru Sahib Ji says about Bhang via Bhagat Kabir Sahib Ji...for me, that Pankti is the supreme authority on this issue.

Let's move on to other pertinent issues. Veer 'Gupti' Ji's words appear in bold type.

Whether Bhang should be allowed in Sikhi is not what I am debating

Veer 'Gupt' Ji, that is good - thanks for refocusing the debate. i am glad that you are not trying to place 'Hikayat' at the same level as Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, as many 'Sanaatanists/Akali Nihangs' do.

Cannabis was used by many Shaheeds in history

The point you bring to this debate is supported by this? That's quite a generalised statement! If you mean that some/many/most/all 'Akali Nihangs' of the Ranjit Singh period took part in wars and died whilst intoxicated on Bhang, then indeed that may be correct.

The point that a Veer Ji made earlier about the amount of wars du

ring this period as opposed to just before it is an interesting one...perhaps someone could shed more light upon this.

Let's also remember many of Ranjit Singh's practices...alcohol, other intoxicants, harem of women, extreme polygamy etc. That's why in my belief, according ot what i have read about it, this period actually represents a dark period of Khalsa History.

The authenticity of Dasam Granth is beyond my knowledge so I cannot give an opinon.

Veer Ji, earlier-on you were requested to provide proof that Siree Guru Sahib Ji advocated and supported the use of Bhang - you responded directly by providing 'Hikayat'. PLEASE do not do this in the future - you attributed something very controversial and even offensive to Siree Guru Sahib Ji whilst all along it seems that you were not even sure of the 'authenticity of Dasam Granth'. 

That is quite a thing - please ask for maafi from Siree Guru Sahib Ji for this error. If you were not sure you could have atleast said that this 'Hikayat' allegedly is the Word of Siree Guru Sahib Ji...ponder over this; it is indeed an important issue for you upon a personal, Gursikhi level.

But the third point that you made can also be directed at tea, coffee and Cola. All alter the way we perceive, feel and react to sensory stimulation.

But not in the same way Veer Ji. THC fools the body into thinking it is anandimide which is naturally produced by our body when we are content/happy etc. The brain's anandimide receptors clutch the THC because it is virtually the same structure as anandimide. Hence, thinking processes are directly altered. Bhang induces a state of Maya. As a sidenote, it is interesting to note that the word 'anandimide' contains the word anand; Sanskrit for 'bliss'. This points towards the strong connection between Bhang and its use in India.

Siree Guru Nanak Sahib Ji, according to one particular Sakhi, refused Bhang from Emperor Babar who t

ook him to be a Hindu Sadhu. Apparently he said words to the effect 'What would this worldly intoxicant do compared to the intoxication of Naam'. Perhaps a Veer/Bhain Ji who is reading this post can track down this Sakhi. If this Sakhi is authentic, there is an important learning point here regarding the use of intoxicants.

Returning to the matter at hand, anyone who takes Bhang in whatever form is basically giving their brain the impression that 'everything is ok' when it isn't...remember that THC is specifically PSYCHOACTIVE in it's nature unlike tea, coffee etc. which contain caffeine. Caffeine works primarily upon the nervous system. Even heroine is not psychoactive; it works literally by altering the levels of bloodflow.

Veer Ji it seems that everyone, including you, have presented their points re: Bhang. To be honest what more can be said now re: its physical/psychological effects...the choice is now yours as to what you believe.

One also has to realise that only a small amount of the leaves are required to make "Shaheedi Degh", therefore we cannot compare tea/coffee/etc with someone high on smoking weed

Veer Ji, this is the first time quantity has been mentioned. Are you saying that the drink is not intoxicating because of the 'amount' of ingredients it consists of? Then why are leaves of an intoxicant, which Siree Guru Sahib Ji via Bhagat Kabir Sahib Ji condemns outright, being put into the body - for purely symbolic purposes? i can't help but thinking that this Bhang argument gets weaker every time one looks at it, or when others attempt to support it!

Also i don't fully understand your point quoted above - you seem to point towards a connection between: (i) the amount of Bhang used (ii) the amount of tea / leaves coffee used (iii) people who ingest Bhang via their lungs as opposed to stomach tracts. Veer 'Gupt' Ji,  please explain the gist behind this sentence.

Off the top of my head works such as

Ratan Singh Bhangu's Prachin Panth Prakash mention sukha. Nihang Singhs consumed sukha before going into battle. Many Nihang Singhs became Shaheeds in these battles.

This response to Veer Bikramjit Singh again seems to point towards your reliance upon 'histroical sources' as opposed to Dhurki Bani i.e The Authenticated Word of Vahiguru contained within Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the very Nemesis of this Kal Jug. How can you place such faith in the murky words of mortals compared to the Light of Lights, Siree Guru Sahib Ji?

Via historical sources it is obvious what these 'Akali Nihangs' were doing during this period of recent history; i fully accept that. But to validate it, just because 'it happened' and is recorded in contemporary sources is a major failing - in fact it is an act of shoddy logic. If your belief in Bhang has this rationale as its foundation, then Veer Ji i recommend that you seriously reassess what you want out of Sikhi...please.

The following points that were raised have not been addressed; perhaps someone else can respond to them. Perhaps 'GurooDaChela' can do so. They are:

POINT 1 - Without getting into the authenticity of Dasam Granth, EVERYONE accepts that it was never personally ordained as Guru by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee. It was apparently the 'Akali Nihangs' (the 'followers') who placed it upon such a pedestal, along with 'Sarbloh Granth', directly alongside Siree Guru Granth Sahib Jee. This is the 'Akali Nihangs' own admission. Ask yourself since when should the cart decide where the horse should lead it! i.e. the followers decide and overide what their leader ordains.

POINT 2 - Keeping Point 1 in mind, if 'Hikayat' mentions the consumption of drugs, then this is not to be taken as fact. This is simply because Siree Guru Sahib Jee says, via Bhagat Kabir Sahib Jee, that we are to stay away from cannabis. The question is do the 'Akali Nihangs'

; not view the Word of Bhagats as equal to the rest of GurBani? In other words, do they have a 'two-tier respect' approach concerning Siree Guru Granth Sahib Jee? This question was in part raised earlier by a Veer but remains, somewhat conspicuously, unanswered.

POINT 3 - It must be remembered that cannabis' active ingredient is THC which operates upon a psycho-active level i.e. alters the way we perceive, feel and react to sensory stimulation. To argue that Siree Guru Sahib Jee ordained that such a state of mind was neccesary for the Khalsa, above and beyond the Beant Power of Naam, is in my opinion sheer ignorance or stupidity and is borne out of a complete lack of faith in GurSikhi. Are we saying that the Khalsa Akaal Purakh Ki Fauj, created complete by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee through Vahiguru's Beant Shakti, were lacking mental strength, physical prowess etc. and needed a 'drug-induced' boost?

ADDITIONAL QUESTION - Out of interest, in the 'Hikayat' the following lines appear:

`Oh, Saki, give me the cup full of green liquid,

`So that I may keep the secret enshroud.(178)

`Oh Saki! Give me the greenish wine of Europe,

`Which I may need on the day of war.(179)(10)

Why is the Nasha referred to as 'the greenish wine of Europe'?

i will be grateful to any Bhang supporters, 'Nihungs' or 'Sanaatan Sikih'/'Akali Nihang' sympathisers who can answer these queries. 'GurooDaChela', are you still around, because your Seva in this regard would be most appreciated.

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

[Gupti]

The points raised by both yourself and MKhalsa are very interesting and thought provoking.

Cannabis was used by many Shaheeds in history

The point you bring to this debate is supported by this? That's quite a generalised statement! If you mean that some/many/most/all 'Akali Nihangs' of the Ranjit Singh period took part in wars and died whilst intoxicated on Bhang, then indeed that may be correct.

Yes, it was a generalised statement which did cause some confusement. I apologise for not being specific. If we look at the Maryada at Hazoor Sahib the traditions in place there have existed for some time. Before even Maharaja Ranjit Singh's era.

Let's also remember many of Ranjit Singh's practices...alcohol, other intoxicants, harem of women, extreme polygamy etc. That's why in my belief, according ot what i have read about it, this period actually represents a dark period of Khalsa History.

I don't think this has any relevance. The malpractises of Ranjit Singh should not be confused with Sikh practises and beliefs. Ranjit Singh even had to get pesh from Akali Nihangs at one point in his reign.

The authenticity of Dasam Granth is beyond my knowledge so I cannot give an opinon.

Veer Ji, earlier-on you were requested to provide proof that Siree Guru Sahib Ji advocated and supported the use of Bhang - you responded directly by providing 'Hikayat'. PLEASE do not do this in the future - you attributed something very controversial and even offensive to Siree Guru Sahib Ji whilst all along it seems that you were not even sure of the 'authenticity of Dasam Granth'. 

That is quite a thing - please ask for maafi from Siree Guru Sahib Ji for this error. If you were not sure you could have atleast said that this 'Hikayat' allegedly is the Word of Siree Guru Sahib Ji...ponder over this; it is indeed an important issue for you upon a personal, Gursikhi level.

The reason why I did not comment on the authenticity is because a lot of people are quick to form opinions. The authenticity of Dasam Granth is a debate that requires extensive research and background knowledge. Too many times people will give an opinion based on nothing but conjecture. I do agree with you that I should have used the word 'allegedly', and for that I apologise.

One also has to realise that only a small amount of the leaves are required to make "Shaheedi Degh", therefore we cannot compare tea/coffee/etc with someone high on smoking weed

As I said before many people make judgements in haste. I felt that pre-empting the argument that 'tea s

hould not be compared to smoking weed' (which I felt someone was bound to say) had to be tackled first when comparing their effects.

This response to Veer Bikramjit Singh again seems to point towards your reliance upon 'histroical sources' as opposed to Dhurki Bani i.e The Authenticated Word of Vahiguru contained within Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the very Nemesis of this Kal Jug. How can you place such faith in the murky words of mortals compared to the Light of Lights, Siree Guru Sahib Ji?

Via historical sources it is obvious what these 'Akali Nihangs' were doing during this period of recent history; i fully accept that. But to validate it, just because 'it happened' and is recorded in contemporary sources is a major failing - in fact it is an act of shoddy logic. If your belief in Bhang has this rationale as its foundation, then Veer Ji i recommend that you seriously reassess what you want out of Sikhi...please.

My reliance on historical sources should not be taken as a gesture that I place it on the same level as Guroo's Bani.

My rationale for Bhang was that Nihangs took it in the past before going into battle and they should not be vilified for this.

As per the rest of your post, with Points 1 and 2 in mind, Dasam Bani is controversial due to certain parts. But it cannot be wholesalely disregarded as Guru's Bani because there are passages in there that are no doubt the works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. But because judgement is open on certain parts of Dasam Bani it is impossible to regard it or disregard it as Guru's Bani.

On my part I think it would have been better not to mention Bani in Dasam Granth, but instead concentrate on other works that showed that Nihangs in the past did co

nsume Shaheedi Degh (in reply to ms514's request).

[Jagroop Singh]

Vahigurui ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!

Veer 'Gupti' ji,

Thanks for your prompt reply and the mature manner in which you have responded. All too often people get really heated-up when discussing these kinds of issues so when a sense of calmness and thoughtfulness prevails, i really appreciate it.

You have also shown humility by apologising and withdrawing certain words you have used. Thank you dear Veer Ji.

You wrote: I don't think this has any relevance. The malpractises of Ranjit Singh should not be confused with Sikh practises and beliefs. Ranjit Singh even had to get pesh from Akali Nihangs at one point in his reign.

Veer Ji, i think it does have relevance. i say this because it was under Ranjit Singh's influence that the Misls were united and it was he who was looked upon by many, if not most Sikhs and non-Sikhs, as their leader...the Monarch presiding over 'Khalsa Raaj' as it were.

The fact that he formally reigned as a 'Maharaj' could be argued as going against Gurmat. The concept of monarchy is anathema to Sikhi; aside when referring to Vahiguru or Siree Guru Sahib Ji. Which other non-Guru figure has been referred to in these terms?

At the very least we should admit that he did not espouse the lofty Khalsa ideals via his actions...therefore, a kingdom established by the 'Khalsa blood' of his forefathers was hardly going to remain consolidated under his/his descendants' rule. It was obviously not Vahiguru&

#39;s Will. One could even argue that perhaps Vahiguru's Kirpa was withdrawn because this was not a real Khalsa Raaj.

You wrote: 'My rationale for Bhang was that Nihangs took it in the past before going into battle and they should not be vilified for this'.

i would not say that they should be subject to outright, blind, hate-filled vilification but certainly, we should not appease supporters of Bhang by sheepishly accepting it is a 'sacrament of the Khalsa' etc. and let them make out as though this is the 'True Khalsa Way' completely un-challenged.

Conversely, when Siree Guru Sahib Ji via Bhagat Kabir Sahib Ji states that all those who consume Bhang will face Narakh/Hell, then in my limited opinion it would be Beadbi of Siree Guru Sahib Ji to ignore such a statement and to let others be misguided.

You wrote: 'As per the rest of your post, with Points 1 and 2 in mind, Dasam Bani is controversial due to certain parts. But it cannot be wholesalely disregarded as Guru's Bani because there are passages in there that are no doubt the works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. But because judgement is open on certain parts of Dasam Bani it is impossible to regard it or disregard it as Guru's Bani'.

i do not wholesaleley disregard the Dasam Granth. i just think there is no sound basis to accept it in its entirety as a 'completely inclusive section' of Siree Guru Sahib Ji. Regardless of which Banis are written by Siree Guru Gobind Singh Ji, He did not give it any such authority - He is All-knowing and All-wise...Master of The Universe...what are we - not even insects in His Presence. Hence, how can the 'cart lead the horse'! But i accept you do not wish to address this point Veer Ji. Perhaps someone else, who supports the use of Bhang by 'the Khalsa', can take the lead.

As for the unauthenticated Banis, i would not even dare to refer to them as Siree Guru Sahib Ji's word without knowing the Truth. The

Panth has collectively declared that Jaap Sahib, Chaupai Sahib etc. are authentic. If there were more reliable and conclusive evidence regarding the other sections of Dasam Granth, this discussion would not have to take place...that would certainly be better for the Panth - but such is Vahiguru's Infallible Will.

i still await 'GurooDaChelaa', who is conspicuous by his absence, or other supporters of Bhang / Sanaatanism / 'Akali Nihung' proponents to address Points 1, 2, 3. i do not feel these have been adequately addressed so far. :wub:

i am also interested in any reponses re: the 'European' reference within the 'Hikiyat' quoted by Veer 'Gupti' Ji.

Thanks.

Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!