Evil: The Author Of Sikhi

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WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Thank you so much ms514- that link was v. useful,

Its helped me understand Sikhi more.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

[crayzy]

Did the Mughal Nobles not play an essential role in shaping Sikhi into what it has become today?

I say--> If the 10th Guru is the author of the Khalsa then the Moghuls and their actioins are certainly the co-authors

no Dasam granth Sahib states epic battles of Good v Evil that took pace hundreds of thousands of Years ago. Sikhi is the Good against the evil, whatever form the evil may be in. The Mughals were not evil, they were just politicians. Whether the evil you fight is in your own mind or outside is of no consequence. Like you say God created evil. But God is innately good by definition. God is the source of all, the true proponents of evil, the demons and whatnot will not be punished. The humans who give into them will not be punished either. There is no punishement in Sikhi, you reap what you sow. If you sow seeds that lead you to narak then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Sikhi is the weapon against this. Its Kalyug, evil has reign over the world. Sikhi is the way out.

(this is what I mean when I say the guru's and their teachings are derivatives of the society they lived in).

Human evil (the actions of the Mughal nobles) gave birth to Sikhi!

Sikhi, my friend, is the rebellious child of evil!

Sikhi would not exist if the guru’s saw no need to bring about the reformation within an existing society, thus Evil is the author of Sikhi, and gave Sikhi not only purpose but direction.

Now we have to ask ourselves did the Guru’s wish for a Utopian Society in which evil was no more, do they wish for a society in which people live in perfect synchronous harmony with the “divine”?

very eloquent. But for Sikhi to have been given direction by evil would mean that evil would have to have existed first. The truth is the contrary. Sikhi has ben around forever. It was merely exposed to us by the Gurus as a weapon in our fight against evil. For those of those that wish to fight. Nowhere in Sikhi does it tell you what you have to do. All it is contemplation of action and consequence and the nature of God and His saints.

Once again, the Gurus illumination of Sikhi was not out of social need. Their desire was to create the possibility of individuals who are not evil. In Gurbani it says that true Sikhs are very rare. It doesnt say to create huge 'pure' settlements. A sikh is an individual not a society.

Why does Sikhi want to terminate what made it? Why does Sikhi want to terminate evil that made almost all the world religions.

Sikhi is here to give us the chance to kill the evil within ourselves to get close to God. You look at everything from an outside perspective on a small timescale. Before there was any creation there was only God and god is, by definition, good. Evil is simply the imaginative play of God, an obstacle between Him and us, and the game is for us to defeat it to get to God. Or join it and end up in narak.

Is evil bad?

so if evil is good and good is good how should we live our lives?

This is an oxymoron. Evil cannot be good by definition. You assume that evil created good but that isnt true. Good was there before evil. Evil is simply the play of God, as is good. 'Good' is simply a point of view. From a Sikhi perspective, 'good' is what takes you closer to God, 'evil' is what seperates you from Him.

-->to that i say this: simply on the basis of taste, our taste or GODs, unfortunately we dont know gods "taste".

who says

read Gurbani and you'll see the taste of God. Do it well enough and you will feel it.

God is the author of both GOOD and EVIL, if it is truly god that developed Sikhi.

no arguments there. Of course you would already know that if you read Gurbani. God created evil, but people love evil. How many people say things like 'even while I was doing it I knew it was wrong but I kept goin'.

I know I have plenty of times. God created Evil. Mankind enhanced it with his love for evil, which landed us in Kalyug. Its an old story that has and will repeat itself. The task of the human is to defeat evil and renounce all 'doing'. All 'good' or 'bad' results in karma. In Sikhi we aim to transcend that by placing everyting in Gods hands. Everything 'bad' that happens is the will of God. Everything 'good' that happens is the will of God.

As it stands, when something bad happens we blame someone else, and when good happens we run to the front saying 'it was me'

No offence, but if you want to argue about Sikhism you're going to need a real knowledge of Gurbani, which is in effect what Sikhi is[/is]

[crayzy]

To say that you will be rewarded on how you perform in this life is lame! Is a child that is born into poverty deserve it?

once again. You havent read Gurbani have you.

How dyou know what the person born into poverty did his/her past life. "lame" is not an argument.

The ideology of Karma is an effective tool of social control:

The Hindu culture used karmian ideology so that the elite could validate their position in society and preserve their power and the caste system.

”We are rich and we deserve to be rich because we were good in our past life”

the misuse of scripture by elitist Hindu castes doesnt make anything less or more false/true

Our guru’s also implemented the karmian ideology for social control and OBEDIENCE but a different form of social controlà Do good or you will be punished,: “do good now and you will be rewarded in the next life” was the overall take home message of our guru’s.

This was truly an evolved thought from the Hindu culture but nonetheless supports egoism. People do good not because they want to but because they have to, we were not given a choice. We either do good or suffer. This psychologically very burdening and expresses not the good nature in humanity but an egoistic one.

Sikhs do good to fuel their own ego, to ensure themselves that they will be better off in the afterlife?

not true. The Gurus had no aim for control over the population. No one was forced to be Sikh, it wasnt necessary for anyone to be Sikh. On the contrary it was the Sikhs who had to struggle to get into Sikhism. They would be rejected by society and have prices put on their heads. You're trying to look at Gurbani from the point of view of a political historian. Let me remind you that Sikhism has never held a state. People used to have to go out of their way to be Sikhs, Sikhs never went out of their way to make other people into Sikhs. This political dichotomy is ridiculous in that there was NO Sikh society. You were free to join/leave as you pleased.

A true Sikh gives himself to Waheguru and forgets all thought about reward/punishment. The aim of Sikhi is to transcend karma. As far as ego goes "haumai navai naal virod hai, due na vasai khatae".

All that happens is because of God - this is the psyche of a Sikh, a Sikh is detached from all that happens. As far as karma goes, if you are evil you pass through narak, 84 lak jaouns etc depending on what you did. If you were good but not mukt then you get another chance. There is a lot written in Gurbani about different life forms.

Theories on Karma undermine current life, our “current life” is nothing more than a preparation for another life.

GIVE ME A BREAK!

This teaching should be abandoned if we want to preserve what is precious in this life, the one in which we are sure that we exist!

Read some Marxian ideology to get a better view of what I’m talking about here!

no, I wont give you a break. Karl Marx has no authority over the universe. All he had was a theory. You try to argue Marxist and Hegellian theory agains Sikhi but you haven even read what the the Guru Sahiban have written.

Hold on to this life all you like. you'll lose this world as well as the next.

so you hold marxism above Sikhi? A drunk German is Higher than the Guru Sahiban in your view? Marx himself didnt believe what he wrote. He hated communal living, it was just a theory, forget his thoery and find his diary to read, thatll wake you up. And all politics based on marxism has been oh so successful has it not.

Modern economics/politics does not hold very high regard for classical thoery, yet you try to contrast it to Sikhi. Read Gurbani, even in english on sikhitothemaxx.com and see what Sikhi is about.

Sikhi is unaffected by political ideology. Come back and argue about it when you know what it is.

[Sabre Sword]

Good post crayzy

[Sinister]

To Crayzy,

ask yourself.....

Was there a free sikh society?

No one was forced to be a SIKH? ha i beg to differ, was a child born into the home of an early sikh family not obliged to become a sikh. was his/her nimble mind not pounded with sikh ideologies from a young age.

Were the lower/poorer castes not promised equality? In a way did this not force the lower castes and less powerfull to join the Sikhi movement. All im saying is that the sikhi movement was a movement that helped remove opression (an evil), you completely misunderstood everything i wrote.

In a way, Sikhi is the early form of the Marxist movement, look at the idea of Langar.

I never held marxism above Sikhi, however i do not support Sikhi's stance over Karmanian ideology (and thats an opinion). You insult your own reason when you talk of chaursee lakh joon.

Now ask yourself, what is the definition of good?

Why does God love Good,

Does god love good because it is good?

or is the good good because god loves it?

THe overall take home message was that, God cannot love us, or for that matter judge us, on the basis whether we performed good and evil in our present life, because the definition of Good and Evil changes, not only within society but over time!

judjing from your response you either

1) did not read between the lines thus misunderstood my message or

2) your not very bright.

you choose.

[LostSoul]

To Crayzy,

ask yourself.....

Was there a free sikh society?

No one was forced to be a SIKH? ha i beg to differ, was a child born into the home of an early sikh family not obliged to become a sikh. was his/her nimble mind not pounded with sikh ideologies from a young age.

Were the lower/poorer castes not promised equality? In a way did this not force the lower castes and less powerfull to join the Sikhi movement. All im saying is that the sikhi movement was a movement that helped remove opression (an evil), you completely misunderstood everything i wrote.

In a way, Sikhi is the early form of the Marxist movement, look at the idea of Langar.

I never held marxism above Sikhi, however i do not support Sikhi's stance over Karmanian ideology (and thats an opinion). You insult your own reason when you talk of chaursee lakh joon.

Now ask yourself, what is the definition of good?

Why does God love Good,

Does god love good because it is good?

or is the good good because god loves it?

THe overall take home message was that, God cannot love us, or for that matter judge us, on the basis whether we performed good and evil in our present life, because the definition of Good and Evil changes, not only within society but over time!

judjing from your response you either

1) did not read between the lines thus misunderstood my message or

2) your not very bright.

you choose.

133281[/snapback]

Sinister whats your thought on free will?

[dreamman]

Dear Sinister Bro,

Well my opinion to you is first of all stop thiking taking only one mind set, open it to listen to other views and then analyze urself and come up for what u asking for.

U say that evil is the thing which made sikhism to born?

Ok thats true, but this is nature, everything has to be born from some place, but evil being the guidance of birth of sikhi doenst make it a evil ancestor. that birth of sikhi was meant for certain reasons and thats reason is to kill the evil outside and inside you.

One biggest thing is there is no evil outside..... the only evil resides inside us and thats alll..... take my words if everybody wins his/her mind there will be no evil in the society.....

take a simple example: if somebody do wrong and u keep watching him benefit from that without any harm, your mind thinks thats good I can do it too... now the evil starts to come into u... although u know its wrong but u surrendering to evil...

so guruji's wants sikhs to be such that they can fight for justice against evil (inside as well as outside)

i dont know gurbani much, but i try to answer with simple words...

the main purpose was to stand against evil and for that sikhism was created and hence this is no direct relationship of a mother son between sikhism and evil as u r pointed it out in ur post... by saying why we are killing evil if we are born from it...

we are not born from evil we were born to fight against evil... there is no blood relation or direct relation

Fateh

[Sinister]

to lost soul,

for me,

Free will does not exist, we are ever influenced by every action around us. I'm a conflict theorist in that I veiw the self in conflict with the self. Kinda like Freud's idea on the Id and the Ego.

Ego supresses the "Id" (natural impulsive man).

In a way we are programmed by society to perform and think a certain way, in accordance to the "norm".

Ultimate freedom for man can only come if man "retreats" back to his natural animal state. This however is not possible. Or like toqueville said, every act and social organization in your world should be voluntary, this is also not possible within society.

so absolute free will does not and cannot exist.

A man who practices free will is on the brink of insanity or is probably suicidal. He is a man that cannot establish any morals and or beleifs.

TO dreamman:

What happens when the Fight for justice is complete?

the fight for justice can never be complete because justice itself changes in the course of history, social norms change, so does our definition of a deviant person. Once "sikhi" has acheived its goal and "conquered evil", we woud just make up new evils to conquer, wont we?

[LostSoul]

Interesting, goes along my idea of it to. We say God is all powerful all knowing, lol but he wont know what happens when we die, thunder hits us and we fry, and Gods like "wow didnt see that coming!" People need to relax and know everything is in perfect order, anything on this earth or above was, and is created for a reason, another reason why I dont believe in sin, or hell.