Sinister: Lost In Translations

[Singh, Mahan]

***** . What is language? And what is a script?.

(With Respect to Gurmukhi and Devnagri)

Whatever way one defines what language is, it is when one speaks, a sound is produced. Vocal chord produce sounds and synthesize it, words are pronounced. Theses words mean something. To preserve it one can write that down. Or record it. To write it down one needs symbols generally in the form of script. But it still is the “words spoken” to which we respond. Writing is only a way of preserving the sound (words pronounced). Now a days you can record the words instead of writing to preserve them.

Gurmukhi script (for that matter even Devnagri – the script traditionally used to record /write Sanskrit sounds) is developed in such a way that you can write any word the way it is spoke by using Gurmukhi script. There would be only one way that word would be pronounced when it is read . For example, if one writes the word “chocolate “ in Gurmukhi script (provided it was pronounced correctly), it will be read back and pronounced exactly the way it was spoken. There is no confusion about whether it should be spoken as Chhoklate, Chalklate, Shoklate or Kalklate . Many time Gurus spoke other language or regional dialect for the benefit of those to whom they were addressing. That speech ( composition ) is recorded in Gurmukhi script. When people say that this composition Guru Granth is written in (say) in Sanskrit, it means that the words are “recorded” (written) in Gurmukhi script, but when read these words would sound exactly as if “spoken” in Sanskrit. Let us take another example. Suppose I have a guest in my house who does not understand Punjabi and can not read any thing written in Gurmukhi script, And he has gone out to do some business; and I too want to go to the market to buy something. At home I have two young children who do not speak English.. So I shall write a massage for my guest in Gurmukhi script “recording” the sound “ I have gone to the market and shall be back in half an hour”. If I am not back when the guest comes back, the children would read that sound from Gurmukhi script producing the sound “ I have gone to market and shall be back in half an hour”. Did the children speak Gurmukhi or English.?. They reproduced exactly ( more or less) what I wrote and the guest understood it as if it was spoken in English.

You can “write” almost any sound in Gurmukhi script. (same can also be said about Devnagri). It will be read back only one way even if the reader has not heard that word before.

Regarding the English translations of Guru Granth Sahib, all the translations have been the work of individuals. So these translations do reflect their bias in interpretation. This problem is further compounded by the fact that all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is written in poetry genre. Its interpretation is sometimes becomes clouded when the translator try to do that in poetry as well. However one can still construct (understand) the theology of Guru Nanak quite well from these translations. In order to understand his theology one needs to understand very clearly what Guru Nanak means by “God” ,“Hukam”(Hukam means the laws of Infinite – not a command as most of the English translators tend to translate it as), “ consciousness “ and “ what man is with respect to what he calls God”.

In one of your previous posts you have mentioned Hagel . So I assume that you have a keen interest in Philosophy. So I suggest that you read Spinoza (lived in seventeenth century ) to understand his concept of God.. His concept of God is very similar to that of Nanak except that Guru Nanak calls it ”SAT ” rather than a substance. “SAT” means the Ultimate Truth, Ultimate reality, all that is there even the “universe “ came from it. When all thing would run its course they will merge back “SAT”. Guru Nanak also gives the technique (Naam Simran) by which one can feel the presence of “SAT” – experience the presence of once essence. Guru Nanak has developed the concept to much higher level. Guru Nanak calls this the Ultimate Truth about this universe, all universes which exist, and beyond - the Reality of all things.

[Sinister]

To kharkoo,

Thats a really confusing reply? I am fully aware that Gurmukhi is different from punjabi. Its the ranslation that is confusing me.

so you beleive that it is essential to know gurmukhi? (for further questioning, read reply to Singh, mahan bellow)

my point was that a script must always entail a language and gurmukhi has followed that stream (gurmukhi which is a script...punjabi letters arranged in a particular way to produce novel vocal sound, sounds that have not been interpreted or heard before)

i can write,

uuugaa , boooga, shoogaa

this is a novel sound in english script but it certainly entails a new language, especially if I give these words meaning in another language (same way, french, english and germanic all have the same script but are entirely different languages).

In the same way, gurmukhi makes no sense when I read it. (I might as well recite uuugaaa, booga, shoogaa) until i read the translation or explanation - either in punjabi or english the gurmukhi to me is really jibberish ( I'm sure the majority of other sikhs have the same problem). I no longer feel sikhi, I feel it foreign to me, almost as if God was speaking to me in a foreign Tongue!

Sikhi has linguistic barriers, I think its time to solve the solution, religion should relate and mellow to the beat of the people. Would an American christian read a Bible in the ancient tongue of latin? what good would come of it?

I think Singh, mahan did a good job in explaining it.

You criticize me in not using Gurbani in my responses before, How can I use gurbani when

1) I am entirely dependant on Individual translations, as are the majority of other sikhs.

2) I must think in punjabi/english rather than Gurmukhi

3) The word in the Gurbani seems foreign to me

My Critique,

You never site worldly scholars in your replies? reciprocation is key for obtaining objectivity rather than opinion.

To Singh, mahan:

Wow....cool....thats a really good response. :TH:

How did punjabi then become so powerful amongst the sikhs, if the sikhs are destined to interpret their own faith in Gurmukhi? SHouldn't we be talking, writing, and even thinking on a Gurmukhi system?

Yeah I haven't studied Spinoza yet (heard of the scholar many times) but I will certainly do so in the near future.

How can we learn to talk and write gurmukhi, a very daunting task in my opinion? Does this limit Sikhs, doesn't it make the majority of sikhs dependant enitrely on translations and explanations? should sikhi be compiling a standardized version of the granth by gathering the sikhi scholistic collective to recitfy the issue?

or should we stick to gurmukhi (I mean, our faith revolves around its words its almost impossible to let go of it...but at the same time the script itself limits our own capabilities of interpreting it)?

Thanks for the reply!

cheers

[WGJKKWGJKF]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Why did the Gurus make Gurmukhi:

(on http://www.sikhworld.co.uk/page26.html)

because Sanskriti was only restricted to the priestly Hindu class, but the Gurus did not believe in this elitism.

Gurbani was preached in many languages, n most of them the local ppl could understand.

And why preach in more than one language?

Because God told the prophets to preach in many languages, so we dont misunderstand believing that the 'punjabi' language for example is holy or the only special language.

Coz there isnt a partuicular holy language. The word of the Guru was holy ie the shabads, which God told them to preach, Not the whole language, coz that could also make swear words in punjabi holy aswell, which it aint.

N by the way the Gurus themselfs preached Gurbani, so we can understand it. So there should be no confusion or language barrier in interpreting the Shabads.

The translations are good- but it should be written in Gurmukhi and roman english aswell as translating it to english.

We should learn to read Gurmukhi (i presently cant read Gurmukhi, but i find it very important to learn Gurmukhi, coz i dont wanna relie on translations)

N the roman english is needed, as temporary while learning to read Gurmukhi,- Shouldnt relie on them for rest of our lives

N translations into english, shouldnt be taken literally, and i think it should be only used to get a rough idea of what the shabad is saying, thats why its important to learn panjabi and Gurmukhi.

Please forgive me if i said anything wrong (please correct me if im wrong aswell) as im only a learner too.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEG

[humble_kaur]

Thats a really confusing reply? I am fully aware that Gurmukhi is different from punjabi. Its the ranslation that is confusing me.

Sinister Veer Ji,

What is so confusing about the reply? It was very well put. To understand the translations of Gurbani, you actually have to physically do it. Just by merely reading it, you cannot comprehend what the Shabad is telling you. There are various sites that can help you. For example www.gurugranthdarpan.com and www.sikhitothemax.com.

Yes, it can be difficult at times because the english translations cannot be taken literally, we have to find the underlying meaning of the Shabad. Don't take it as face value. You say that Gurbani seems as a foreign language to you. How so? There are so many languages in this world that are foreign, and when translated in english, it is completely different. So we go to reliable sources, ie teachers, and learn the correct translation of them. So why not take some of your time you have, go to someone and sit down with them, and fully understand what Gurbani is telling you. By merely coming on this forum will not help you. YOU have to actively do it.

I suggest you listen to some of Singh Sahib Prof Darshan Singh Ji's keertan and katha. He does an amazing job of interpreting Gurbani. I find him to be a valuable resource. I find myself several times lost in the translations as well, but I actively pursue to find the meaning. You seem to have great knowledge, or take interest in philosophical scholars. I myself have studied philosophy, and at times, that language seemed foreign to me as well. In order to get good grades, I had to understand what each philosopher's point of views were, some I agreed with, others I didn't. To put Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji among those scholars, I do not agree with, because Gurbani is valuable on its own. So Veer Ji, try to understand each post that has been written using Gurbani. It helps, trust me. Just by reading the written words and skimming past the Gurbani tuks, is the common mistake everyone makes. So, to use the excuse continuously of not understanding the Shabad due to translations really has no base to stand on. When you say you completely rely on translations in english, then why not take the time to comprehend it.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[Kharkoo4Life]

quote=Sinister,Nov 21 2005, 06:53 AM]

To kharkoo,

Thats a really confusing reply? I am fully aware that Gurmukhi is different from punjabi. Its the ranslation that is confusing me.

One the one hand you say gurmukhi is too hard to undertand and foregin to u that there is a need for translation for one unfamiliar to gurmakhi to comprehend gurbani. THen u go on to say the translation is whats confusing you. Which is it? If gurmukhi is too hard for u, n english translations also are confusing, then is any language up to your level which u deem fit to understand gurbani by? Or perhaps we shud eliminate all language, since it all seems to breed confusion, and just produce a book with pictures and photos for you to understand gurbani. WOuld that be better sinister?

so you beleive that it is essential to know gurmukhi? (for further questioning, read reply to Singh, mahan bellow)

Yes. This is not something i believe but something which has been decided by the Panth as a whole. No individual on his own has the authority to override any decision made in the Spirit of sikhi according to gurmat by the collective panth. And in case you have not bothered to read the SIkh Rehat Maryada, (tho find time to read an amazing numbr of other books) let me do u the service of sharing it with you:

Section III.

Chapter VII,

Article VIII b.

Every Sikh man, woman, boy or girl, should learn Gurmukhi to be able to read the Guru Granth Sahib.

Now do u think the scholars, academics, historians, granthis etc who all worked on drafting this Rehat Maryada, and spent 14 YEARS making sure that every word had a significance would include this statment just so someone would be able to recognize the letters of gurmukhi, or simply so they cud make the sounds associated with the gurmukhi script? Or do u think perhaps there was a greater importance behind it that to truly understand and preserve the full integrity of the message without distortion one needs to be able to comprehend the gurmukhi script?

For instance, if someone were to give u a translated version of guru granth sahib in english (or any other language) and said this is the message of gurbani hwo would u be able to verify that the message in that translation was true or distorted? Ur obviuosly not a man of blind faith so how would u place any faith in tht work? In order to verify that the translation was correct and accordance to gurmat philosophy u wud have ot be able to cross reference the translated work with the original (i.e in gurmukhi). So how is gurmukhi not essential then?\

my point was that a script must always entail a language and gurmukhi has followed that stream (gurmukhi which is a script...punjabi letters arranged in a particular way to produce novel vocal sound, sounds that have not been interpreted or heard before)

what are u trying to say here? a script entails a language, yes obviously it does! And gurmukhi has followed it, well why wudnt it, it too is a scropt no different from any other. Talkin of confusion, perhaps u shud ensure that your sentences have a point to them rather then jus stating random facts.

i can write,

uuugaa , boooga, shoogaa

this is a novel sound in english script but it certainly entails a new language, especially if I give these words meaning in another language (same way, french, english and germanic all have the same script but are entirely different languages).

In the same way, gurmukhi makes no sense when I read it. (I might as well recite uuugaaa, booga, shoogaa) until i read the translation or explanation - either in punjabi or english the gurmukhi to me is really jibberish ( I'm sure the majority of other sikhs have the same problem). I no longer feel sikhi, I feel it foreign to me, almost as if God was speaking to me in a foreign Tongue!

Again bro, your reasoning seems to lack even the slightest hint of any logical construct. Your argument is that gurmukhi makes no sense to u well i do sympathize with you, as for majority of todays youth it doesnt. But can we really lay blame on that on the script or language itself, or its writer? The blame lies squarely and entirely on us!

Now ur reasoning holds no ground when u say that sikhi feels foreign to me as if god is speakin to u in a foregin toungue. You criticize gurmukhi for the reason u fail to understand sikhi well i wud turn it around and criticize you for not taking time to understand gurmukhi.

No child is born speaking fluetnly in any language. We are only born with the capacity to speak language. Which language we choose to learn to speak and devleop proficiency is an invidiual choice. U sit here and are able to read, write and udnerstand the English language with great ease and expertise but were u born with this ability and skill? No u werent. SO why did u choose to devote so much time and effort to learning this script/language? Was it because u felt there was a need to, that in order to succeed in school, acquire an education, and be a producitve member of this society u live in that learnin english was essential? Obviously all these are motivating factors why u pursued enhancing ur knowledge and understanding of english. You cud of chosen to leanr persian instead, or french, german, spanish, mandarin or any other language. But u realized that english was essential and highl beneficial thing to have while living in this world.

Now similarly, if u wish to live in the world of Sikhi how can u so easily discard the importance of gurmukhi? Uve devoted so many years of ur life reading books in enlgish, expanding ur vocabularly, watching movies in egnlish, listenin to songs in english, writing articles in english, did u not ever once feel the desire to do the same with regards to the language your own guru gave to u? Do u deem gurmukhi such a useless or 2nd class script/language that the need to enhance ur understanding of it comes secondary to other scholarly pursuits?

Sikhi has linguistic barriers, I think its time to solve the solution, religion should relate and mellow to the beat of the people. Would an American christian read a Bible in the ancient tongue of latin? what good would come of it?

I think Singh, mahan did a good job in explaining it.

Sikhi poses NO BARRIERS of any sort. It is due to ur own frairlty of mind and lack of true desire to pursue sikhi that u spend the majority of ur time lookin for nitbits to criticize or disect sikhi without any real positive intention. And religion never mellows to the beat of the people. Did u think the Gurus organized sikhi according to the wants of the mughal regime? or to the desires and wants of the ordinary person? If so it owuld mean the gurus were more influenced by mans wants than Gods hukam. And as such any such religion based on the peoples need wud be always prone to change and modification with the changing desires and watns fo the people. However Sikhi is not any such religion. It is beyond any influence of mortal man. It was preordained by Akal Purakh Himself as He wanted to. Do u think God is so weak and impressionable that he would organize a religion to others wants and not accordign to his own? Rather than constantly trying to fit and mould Sikhi according to your own preconceived beliefs and viewpoints you need to get out of your own individualistic thinking and learn to understand and appreciate Sikhi in its own light.

[Kharkoo4Life]

You criticize me in not using Gurbani in my responses before, How can I use gurbani when

1) I am entirely dependant on Individual translations, as are the majority of other sikhs.

2) I must think in punjabi/english rather than Gurmukhi

3) The word in the Gurbani seems foreign to me

1) Again whose fault is this? Uve learned english and no one forced u to with a gun to ur head, so whats keeping you from devoting the same sincere effort and time towards learning gurmukhi? If u learned gurmukhi maybe u wudnt be so dependant on translations would u.

2) Firstly, uve said b4 u understand the diff between gurmukhi and punjabi, but its obvious u dont. U say u must think in punjab/enlgish which is understandable for they are languages and that is how we think, according to the langauge we are familiar with, but why bring up a comparision about thinkin in gurmukhi? Gurmukhi is a script, set of symbols, letters. U dont think with symbols, u think with language. When u have thoughts in ur head is there a typewriter in ur head by which u see letters and form thoguhts? Of course not, u think fluently in language, in a spoken langauge heard within ur mind, not read.

Second point, you can think in any language u wish. It has no bearing on actual Gurmat philosophy itself, i.e. thinking of a topic with english words will not in itself alter the philosphy of gurmat. HOWEVER, if u wish to properly understand gurmat in full depth then it is ESSENTIAL that u learn the script in which it is written. You quote example of bibles today that no one reads original latin, well the end result is very clear. HOw many countless editions of bible do u see out there? Every year new version come out with sweeping changes some wtih only subtle alterations. Do u have the knowledgebase to say whcih is accurate and which has been distorted? You cant. Only way u cud be able to is if u had full knowledge and understanding of orignal latin language and cud compare the new version with original texts. That is why understanding the orginal langague of any scripture is so important

3) the words in gurbani seem foregin to u. well im sure reading a unversity level textbook on psychoanalysis or quantum phsyics also seemed foregin to u at one point when u (eg. 5 years old). But u managed to keep at it, improve ur knolwedge and now are able to understand thses same books which were once so foreign to u.

Now another example. Im sure uve done math. When u startd it in kindergarten did the symbols of multiplication, division, square root, algebra etc mean anythning to u? DId they not all look like jibberish? Reading a page full of nothing but algebric or calculus equations most likely bore no meaning to u while u were still in elementary school. But as u conintued ur work in school, studying those equations and symbols u gained insight thru knowledge. Those same symbols were used and explained in math textbooks using a language which u were familiar with e.g. english. Thru time u became more and more proficient in reading and understanding these mathematical symbols. And eventually u reach a stage, where a page containing nothing but those same equations mean something to u (without any long descriptive paragrapsh in english accompaning them). U can now look at that same page filled with only mathematical symbols and right away look at it, read it and understand what they mean.

If u tried the same aproach with gurbani ud be amazed at the results. Your goal shud be to learn gurmukhi, consider it the mathematical symbols. NOw granted gumrukhi may at first appear foreign and complicated but this is where other textbooks wich explain the gurumukhi shabads come in. eg. translations in english, or even simple punjabi. Read these alongside the original pages of gurumukhi shabads (i.e. ur math equations) and as u come to udnerstand the meaning and significance of each letter and word in the shabad (i.e. the math symbols) u will slowly find urself being able to read the shabad (equations) on their own without any outside assistance (e.g. explanatory textbooks).

Uve devoted such a technique to countless other courses in ur schooling im sure, so why not at least do this much towards guru granth sahib as well?? If u choose not to , then i am afraid and can guarantee that no amount of scholarly debate, or reading worldly textbooks will ever help u fully understand what Sikhi is. Youll remain lost and immersed in endless debate till ur final breaths.

My Critique,

You never site worldly scholars in your replies? reciprocation is key for obtaining objectivity rather than opinion.

Im sure uve attended some sort of postsecondary schooling and u shud be familiar with the concept of debate. If one is debating or discussing a particular subject then the argumetns one makes either in support or against the other shud stem from the same subject matter that is being discussed. In this case, this whole forum, and every individual topic is related to Sikhi. Be it its history, its doctrine, its principles, its practice or its preaching. And even the most novice learner of Sikhi will tell u that every thought and action in Sikhi stems from Gurbani. Shabad is our guru (teacher) and wtihout a guru there is no sikh (student).

You wish to study and analyze the subject of Sikhi, yet how odd is it that the student does not wish to learn from the only actual qualified teacher on this subject matter (the guru). Rather he is more eager to go to outside sources, sources with no knowledge or even relation to Sikhi and use their views and opinions to try and understand a subject they no nothing about. Now can one ever expect such a student who employs such absurd learning tactics to master the subject matter in question?? Ill leave that upto the sangat to answer.

So in reply to why i dont use wordly scholars in my reply. My discussion and replies deal with the subject matter of Sikhi. So wouldnt u expect me to use scholars trained and with expertise on the subject we are discussing. If our discussion was about art then yes id consider the work of leonardo, picaso or michealangelo men who excelled in this subject, but our subject matter is Sikhi so i will focus my replies on the basis of the one most knowledgable on this field, our guru!

Yeah I haven't studied Spinoza yet (heard of the scholar many times) but I will certainly do so in the near future.

How can we learn to talk and write gurmukhi, a very daunting task in my opinion?

I think this highlights ur priorities in life very clearly! U say learning gurmukhi is a very daunting task, and even raise suggestion to its value or perhpas need to use other ways to understand gurbani yet look at the egerness with which u rush to go learn about some worldly scholar. Perhaps if u showed the same eagerness and hunger towards learning from the Guru u wudnt be so confused about Sikhi as u are today.

should sikhi be compiling a standardized version of the granth by gathering the sikhi scholistic collective to recitfy the issue?

or should we stick to gurmukhi (I mean, our faith revolves around its words its almost impossible to let go of it...but at the same time the script itself limits our own capabilities of interpreting it)?

A standardized version of the granth? What kind of nonsense is this bro? Is Guru Granth Sahib in its present form, as compiled over 200 years with such painstakingly accuracy and difficulty by the Guru themselves not standard enough for you? DO u think you or for that matter some other individual belonging to this 'scholistic collective' u refer to be able to do a better job at explaining the message of Sikhi then the Gurus themselve?

ANd u say the script limits our capabilitis fo interpriting it, maybe ur own laziness to learn the sript is limiting ur ability to interpret it. Have u ever thought about that? If this script is so limited, do u not think the GUrus themselves wud have chosen a different langague? We are told that the word of the shabad is eternal

jo AwieAw so clsI Amru su guru krqwru ]Whoever comes must also go. Only the Guru and the Creator are Eternal.

gur kw bcnu sdw AibnwsI ]

The Guru's Word is eternal and everlasting.

so if this word is eternal were the gurus so shortsighted to spread it in a language which was so limited? Their existed ppl at that time well versed in many diff languages, of which im sure even english dialects was there by time of latter gurus so if they felt other langauges were better capable of preseving and spreading the message do u not think theyd have at least that much wisdom to employ the other languages instead in writing the granths?

Brother, you need to stop devoting so much of ur time to simply criticizing and over analyzing every aspect of sikhi and finding faults in it and actually step out of ur debateroom and try and sincerely learn and practice Sikhi. Hopefully one day u will reach that stage and then use ur intellect and skills to a more productive cause.

[Jai Tegang!]

nice response by kharkoo......good advice for not just sinister, but everyone.

[Sinister]

actually pictures in granth are not a bad idea, after all, a picture can be worth a thousand words!

why didnt the guru's put in pictures? lol thats a funny question but an interesting one? I beleive a "romantic" element might have enriched the faith a little (although it is being done by many contemporary sikh art of today)

I really am thinking for the betterment of sikhi here, i dunno where you get the idea that I'm some anti-sikh. I do come off as a critic, i admit to that, but critiquing I beleive is essential to learning. Think of it this way, no-one would have conceived of this question had it not been addressed/asked, i think we where discussing something novel here.

You were so eager to lash out at me that you lost all objectivity within your speech!

All I'm saying is that we should we be compiling gurmukhi and translating into a standardized english version rather than relying on Individual translations?

This has been done with all the major religious doctrines out their that i know of, and what is your response a lash out, a retention of some high orthodoxian sikh conservative veiw that everyone should know gurmukhi or else they can't become sikh (what if they dont have the means to learn gurmukhi, you speek with the tongue of a RICH man, people have more important things to worry about like SURVIVAL), hhhmmmm typical in most sikhs, but I didn't expect that from you kharkoo.

This is what I meant when i said in my very first post that our faith has become "static". Sikhi has a large diaspora and the message of guru's must reach out to everyone, the rich and the poor, the smart and the dum-dums!!!

How is a sikh situated in Auckland New Zealand suppose to learn gurmukhi? unless he flies back to the mother land, sits down with some scholars and spends more money on classes! AND DONT GIVE ME "ON YOUR OWN", NO ONE CAN LEARN ON THERE OWN, UNLESS THEY REFER BACK TO ALREADY EXISTING TRANSLATIONS AND EXPLANATIONS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN STANDARDIZED.

We learn the natural and physical Sciences so that we can ensure our survival, maybe land a job in the near future, people do that you know, that unfit sentence you never mention or probably doesn't even exist in your magical world, "work for money to ensure survival".

I tried to separate opinion from observation in this argument but somehow got sucked back to the subjective pole.

"Uve learned english and no one forced u to with a gun to ur head" --> THERE IS A GUN AT MY HEAD, IF I DONT LEARN ENGLISH I AM AN ILITERATE, NO JOB, NO MONEY, ENTAILED BY DEATH OR WELFARE IF YOU LIVE IN A NICE COUNTRY (might as well point a gun at head..it would be the same amount of social strain)

Ask yourself, why dont the people that clean toilets at my big koti not follow sikhi, they would if they could get the apropriate standardized explanation to what it all means. They dont have the resource to go out an learn gurmukhi, and neither is their any gurdawara out their that will provide them the resources to learn gurmukhi (a matter of fact these people would most likely be thrown out). However if a standardized version is present then, tadaaa, an enlightened state can be acheived by anyone regardless of class and mental capacity!

Kharkoo an elitist personality emerges from your words, not very sikh like if I may say so. You show a very conservative attitude that will NOT benefit this faith at all, but segragate it so that only the few fortunate can enjoy its fruitful words. How can we make our faith more appealing to the masses? well for starters it has to be translated properly so that the masses can understand what the hell is going on! How can we spread the word of the guru's? How can other faiths take us seriously if we have no stance upon which we can translate our faith to them, reach out to them?

Why are you trying to run some sort of a popularity contest out of a forum that started with pure objectivity?

Theres essentially two paths we can take

1) Do not make a standardized translated version and continue to remain an anonomous faith whos teachings are never fully understood by other faiths in this world.

2) Make standardized copies, so that hundreds and thousands of more people may learn to the faith, and risk the dangers involved. (but remember the original will always be there to remind us, I am definetily not insisting as to throw it away).

so what if theirs a new standardized granth coming out every year, we will always have the original so theirs nothing to worry about.

i put forth a compromise in the discussion, now to take action, I don't know where to begin?

Toodles

[dreamman]

Sinister bhai tuhada kuch nahin ho sakda and I am frankly saying this to you. What i have found is that your only motto is not the learn anything about sikhi, you are jst starting a debate on any issue whch comes to ur mind. Now u started questioning why there are not pctures in guru granth sahib ji?? do u have any motive in your life. The amount of efforts put bykharkoo till this time, you would have been in some gurmat institute by now to learn gurbani so that u can really reply to kharkoo on the topic on which u actually rasing the question and i found that you dont have any knowledge of gurbani as u dont cite any gurbani references in ur replies and supports. This is not the way to go if u reallywant to learn something....

may god help u....

[humble_kaur]

Fateh,

I’m sorry, but you seriously need to either take Sikhi seriously, or don’t ask such ridiculous questions. What do you make of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? A book. You show no respect to the Granth Sahib by saying such ridiculous things. Before you go off saying that a “romantic element” might enrich the faith a little bit, why don’t you practice it first? If you are seriously thinking about the betterment of Sikhi, please, not just for yourself but for others as well, try living a Sikhi Jeevan.

Yes, critiquing is essential for learning, but only construction criticism. You have yet to do that my friend. Yes, no one would have thought up such a question, cuz it is ridiculous. Why don’t you back up what you say with Gurbani instead of pointing fingers at someone, unfortunately for you, who does have objectivity in their posts?

I had given you references for translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and suggested listening to great keertan and katha. They are reliable sources. Many people that have posted on here, and have posted remarkable posts to answer your questions. Why don’t you understand them first? People like yourself are quick to jump to find alternative ways to translate Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, yet, you don’t know a single thing about it. Yes, new testaments have been made of other religious documents, and through time they lose their validity. If you are referring to the Bible, the Roman Catholic Church no longer swears by it. Is that what you want? I’m sorry to say to you, but Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is perfect the way it is, it is the person who doesn’t take to initiative to understand it, that needs to change.

So you are saying that if someone doesn’t know Gurmukhi, they cannot become a Sikh. Have you seen how many Caucasians, Africans etc have become Sikhs, and Gurmukhi (not even Punjabi) is not even their first language! You talk the talk, but yet…… The message of Sikhi has reached everyone, it is universal. People that want to know of Sikhi, they actually make the effort of sitting with the Saadh Sangat, which I think you have yet to do. They make the effort to learn. There is Saadh Sangat everywhere regardless of where you live, so there is no excuse to say that understanding Gurbani is not attainable.

Guru Ji never wanted us to live in poverty. He said earn an honest living. Work for as much as you need to survive. Yes, education is a necessity to get a job. You obviously think that by living to survive is the only thing that Guru Ji wanted us to do? No. Along with working “for money to ensure survival”, Guru Ji also said to live a life of a Gursikh, and follow the teachings of Gurbani. Only those people that get stuck earning money, start seeing the luxuries, tend to forget God, and those that live to survive, always remember God.

You say that Kharkoo Ji has an elitist personality, and he is not very Sikh like, what part of your arguments can you say that you are? Just because someone decides to use the Guru's teachings in making you understand YOUR VIEWS are not all correct. To correct your mistakes, he is an elitist. That’s funny. You say his “conservative attitude will NOT benefit the faith at all”, but from where I see it, his posts are more credible than yours. I don’t see him writing a language that is so hard to understand. If you actually read his posts, they explain very well what he is stating along with Gurbani references. I believe any one that would read his posts will learn something valuable from them. If you can’t understand what he has written, then I can definitely see why it is a problem for you to understand Gurbani.

You talk about the masses not knowing of our faith, you talk about spreading the Guru’s Word, you talk about our faith not being taken seriously. I think you need to know more about our faith, then help spread the Guru’s Divine Knowledge. How? By taking the Sikh faith more seriously.

Because someone is using Gurbani as their base in their arguments, you call it a popularity contest? I don’t think there is a competitor, so how is it even a competition? Guru Ji’s word can never have a competitor.

Instead of telling us what we should do, I think you need to understand yourself, before preaching, because, from what I have read, you have no basis for your arguments, they are empty. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has never changed and will never change. The masses have been following Guru Ji’s teachings, and will continue to follow them.

lUx hrwmI gunhgwr bygwnw Alp miq ]

The sinner is unfaithful to himself; he is ignorant, with shallow understanding.

jIau ipMfu ijin suK dIey qwih n jwnq qq ]

He does not know the essence of all, the One who gave him body, soul and peace.

lwhw mwieAw kwrny dh idis FUFn jwie ]

For the sake of personal profit and Maya, he goes out, searching in the ten directions.

dyvnhwr dwqwr pRB inmK n mnih bswie ]

He does not enshrine the Generous Lord God, the Great Giver, in his mind, even for an instant.

Rab Rakha