Should Shaheed Gursikhs Apologise?

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, When I first read the initial post by Veer namstang in the thread

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?act=Po...02&f=14&t=15251

"i am willing to be a khalistani", I initially just ignored it. I usually skim through titles and only read a handful of threads from which I am interested or inspired by. So when I read this, I just though what a waste of time. You are either a khalistani or not depending on your heart and love for the Panth.

However the manner in which it was written implied grave accusations upon those who did seva. This stuck in my mind. Although I ignored it initially, over the day I kept thinking about those shaheed Gursikhs. If all of them were still alive today the Panth would be such an amazing place. When someone walked that path, whether Bhai Fauja Singh, Sant Jarnail Singh, Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar, and the thousands who walked with their heads in their hands, as per Guru jis hukam, they knew the end, yet the never thought to turn their back on their Guru.

The path on which they walked, they accepted it knowing that we Guru khalsa Panth is there to look after their families and children. They relied on us. Yes, the panth has done alot, many of their families are now abroad and looked after. However can we honestly say with our hands on our hearts, that we have done enough?

Personally, I think NO. Compared to what they did for us, what have been able to do for them. We still hear ninda of people calling Sant Jarnial singh a terrorist. We still have done little for the Delhi riot victims. There are still hundreds of Shaheed families children who still need to be married and set up.

Thinking this in my mind, I felt hurt. Hurt because we have not yet as a Panth still been able to fulfill our part of that bargian. They gave their all, yet we gave so little. You know when someone does ninda of someone close to you, inside your attma feels hurt. Consider double that when someone does ninda of a shaheed. There is no your shaheed, mine shaheed. A shaheed is a shaheed, and they all belong to the Panth. They are such special souls.

So today when people speak of them. They cannot speak back. The least we can do is speak for them. Hence after a day or two I responded to Namstang. I asked him to provide accountabilty for his messageboard seva, and compared it to the accountability that he asks for on such a huge scale.

Veer namstang, who I think is an intelligent young man, it is such a shame he has some personality traits that let him down sometimes. He has lost some family to an incident. Similarly there are probably very few of us here, who have not lost family. Such were the times. I lost family aswell. However veer ji, can no way 100% say that they were killed by Singhs, and not by black cats, police stooges, or even police dressed as Singhs. So can we make judgement without facts? Can we condemn without facts?

I further asked veer ji, from the last 28 years, (1978-2006) to name just one incident in which Singhs killed innocents. Is there a sikh equivalent of vaisakhi 1978, Kanpur 1978, Operation Blue star, Operation Woodrose, Delhi Riots, Kanpur Riots, genocide in Punjab, rape of women, killing on children, 5 years old children jailed under TADA, Godhra riots, etc. can you name even one incident in which you can 100% say sikhs brought genocide, rioting, rape? Name one hindu women throughout that period who was raped by Singhs? Name the Singhs responsible? Fundamentally we have to accept that for everything that happened against Sikhs, sikhs only fought and punished those who commited crimes against us.

Alot of bad things happened during the last 20 years, but that was not done by Singhs. They knew their mission, and that killing of innocents was against it. Singhs did not bad things. However bad people adopted a Sikh roop to give it a bad name, i.e. nihang phulla Ajit for example. These were balcak cats, police stooges who did crimes in conjunction with the police. We all know that.

So when veer ji asks for accountability, I ask him name one incident in which you can name any prominent Singh, and say he killed an innocent?

More seriously when veer ji asks for apologies. I personally think, it is us who need to apologise to the Shaheeds for not doing enough, and we have no right to ask them to apologise to us for doing Seva.

I for one, am proud of our Shaheeds, and and am definately not embarassed by them. When I see their pictures in Gurdwaras, I am pround that such sikhs existed in modern times.

Veer namstang is more than welcome to present his side. Then it is up to the sangat, to decide via the poll, Should Shaheed Singhs apologise for their Shaheedian or Seva?

I am very surprised, I even have to ask it, but it seem today we have people who question them.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

[Akaal Purakh Di Fauj]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

A nation who doesn't remember and respect and thank those who died for it, doesn't deserve to live

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

[N30S1NGH]

Jagjit Singh, please first provide defination of shaheed? just want to know what you think about defination of shaheed?

Read Jevani of Shahed badsah sri guru arjan dev ji, sri guru tegh bahadur ji ,sahibzadas, bhai mani singh and many shaheeds in time of Guru's to know personal traits of shaheed.

Person who scarificed his/her life to

- defend the humanity from oppressors.

- defend the one's or other's dharam from oppressors.

- in course of defending dharam, humanity be vigilant of not hurting innocent people even intentionaly.

Here is an example:

For me, singhs who killed narak khand vasi bibi indra were perfect shaheeds. Because they hit her directly with no innocent person involved in the fire.

However, if you look at the acts of some of kharkho singhs who have killed police officers or whoever was responsible for operation blue star, riots, oppressition against Sikhs in dangerous operations such as - blowing bombs, using anti-aircraft gun, showering bullets with their ak47. In course of killing murders, thugs they carried such dangerous operations in very crowded public, markets places which killed lot of innocent by standers.

For me, those "singhs" don't fit in the defination of "shaheed". straight up... i don't care if i start getting death threats via pm but i m being honest.

They could have easily abort their dangerous operations by using their "bibek buddhi". But no they had to put their revenge first and did not thought of any chain reaction against innocent by standers in crowded places. This is what you call- unjustified force against oppressor.

I don't think they fit in defination of shaheed/matyrdom which old singhs from guru maharaj time kissed.

[Bijla Singh]

However, if you look at the acts of some of kharkho singhs who have killed police officers or whoever was responsible for operation blue star, riots, oppressition against Sikhs in dangerous operations such as - blowing bombs, using anti-aircraft gun, showering bullets with their ak47. In course of killing murders, thugs they carried such dangerous operations in very crowded public, markets places which killed lot of innocent by standers.

They should've used their "bibek buddhi" and let the criminals go free who destroyed our Gurdwaras and dishonored our women? Wah! What a sensible thinking. GOI has done lot more than Singhs yet you have never written a single word against that. "Shaheed" is never defined on personal terms. Shaheedi title is given to someone based on Sikhi principles.

[N30S1NGH]

However, if you look at the acts of some of kharkho singhs who have killed police officers or whoever was responsible for operation blue star, riots, oppressition against Sikhs in dangerous operations such as - blowing bombs, using anti-aircraft gun, showering bullets with their ak47. In course of killing murders, thugs they carried such dangerous operations in very crowded public, markets places which killed lot of innocent by standers.

They should've used their "bibek buddhi" and let the criminals go free who destroyed our Gurdwaras and dishonored our women? Wah! What a sensible thinking. GOI has done lot more than Singhs yet you have never written a single word against that. "Shaheed" is never defined on personal terms. Shaheedi title is given to someone based on Sikhi principles.

136727[/snapback]

Show me one, one single example from history of wars which are fought in Guru's time to justify acts of kharko singhs (carrying out dangerous missions against murders which also killed innocent by standers as part of their panthic seva)???????

I think this is what happens when people start rejecting sri dasam granth as bani and quickly pick up weapons. Sri Dasam Granth and Sri Sarbloh Granth has all jung/dharam yudh vidhi one wants. Sikhs don't realize that they are given a martial text to deal with crisis after delhi riots, during troubling times 1984- 1990

You think label- shaheedi in sikhi comes that easy.. No it's not. Mistakes are Mistakes.. you can't undo them or hide them. I am not mocking those kharkho singhs who died upon killing those who were responsible but i m merely questioning their acts of unjustified force used to kill an oppressors which in result, have killed lot of innocent by standers. I am questioning crediblity how they were labelled "shaheeds of the panth" by comparing their actions to Guru's and Guru dai Sikhs back in the time who fought many many wars.

Shaheedi title is given to someone based on Sikhi principles

you are 100 percent right. I for one think any kharkho singhs regardless of his back ground, affialiations who used "unjustified force" in the crowded place and killed innocent bystander along with murder... didn't care for innocent by standers while waging panthic revenge against oppressors has broken sikhi principles. Therefore loose crediblity of being "shaheed" in my views as far as sikh and gurmat principles are concerned.

[Bijla Singh]

When Singhs had the chance to punish some police officers in 1983 Olympics they did not shoot them because they did not want to terrify the innocent people. If you read Cynthia's book it mentions that many times Singhs let the criminals go in public because they knew that many innocent people would also die. When indira was killed no other person was shot dead. Bhai Gurbachan Singh Ji Manochahal never wasted a bullet and never misused his ammo. Bhai Sukha Jhindha Ji killed Lalat Makan in a restaurant but no innocent person got hurt. Vaideya killed so many innocent people but Singhs in return only killed him. When Bhai Raminderjeet Singh Ji Taini and his wife Bibi Manjeet Kaur Ji were surrounded by the military forces while traveling in a bus they told everyone to get out and only after that they started fighting. History is full of such examples. When high officials are always surrounded by security forces and there is no other way to punish them then Sikhs used bombs. Beanta was killed this way and so were his body guards. Beanta killed thousands of innocent people in the name of “terrorism”. Singhs only wanted to kill him and by the way it was not like he was always in the company of innocent people. His guards and police officers were all butchers. Had Singhs not killed him he would’ve killed thousands of more innocent people. Perhaps you can show us the list of innocent people who were killed by Singhs and tell us how many. If these killings were of course intentional then I condemn it otherwise I fully support freedom fighters. Also, keep in mind that war costs lives. Innocent people die in war no matter what. Innocent people died even while protesting peacefully during british empire and mughal empire. We need to look at intentions. GOI officials killed innocent people intentionally where as (true) Sikhs did not. You need to tell us why you write against the side that has (unintentionally) killed far less people than GOI? Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[N30S1NGH]

When Singhs had the chance to punish some police officers in 1983 Olympics they did not shoot them because they did not want to terrify the innocent people. If you read Cynthia's book it mentions that many times Singhs let the criminals go in public because they knew that many innocent people would also die. When indira was killed no other person was shot dead. Bhai Gurbachan Singh Ji Manochahal never wasted a bullet and never misused his ammo. Bhai Sukha Jhindha Ji killed Lalat Makan in a restaurant but no innocent person got hurt. Vaideya killed so many innocent people but Singhs in return only killed him. When Bhai Raminderjeet Singh Ji Taini and his wife Bibi Manjeet Kaur Ji were surrounded by the military forces while traveling in a bus they told everyone to get out and only after that they started fighting. History is full of such examples. When high officials are always surrounded by security forces and there is no other way to punish them then Sikhs used bombs. Beanta was killed this way and so were his body guards. Beanta killed thousands of innocent people in the name of “terrorism”. Singhs only wanted to kill him and by the way it was not like he was always in the company of innocent people. His guards and police officers were all butchers. Had Singhs not killed him he would’ve killed thousands of more innocent people. Perhaps you can show us the list of innocent people who were killed by Singhs and tell us how many. If these killings were of course intentional then I condemn it otherwise I fully support freedom fighters. Also, keep in mind that war costs lives. Innocent people die in war no matter what. Innocent people died even while protesting peacefully during british empire and mughal empire. We need to look at intentions. GOI officials killed innocent people intentionally where as (true) Sikhs did not. You need to tell us why you write against the side that has (unintentionally) killed far less people than GOI? Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

136766[/snapback]

Thanks for your sensible replies bro. I want to remind you, i m not slagging anyone specific. In my above posts, I am questioning force used in incidents told by my family which occured early late 80 and early 90's. There used to be site on the web- punjabitrauma.org or something...i saw similiar types of incidents in their archives as well.

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, veer ji, you asked for an example of a karkoo singh at the times of the Gurus? OK, lets take Bhai Biddhi Chand ji. Did he not go into his aatmik saroop and attack the Moghul emporer? Did he not go and bring back Guru jis horses? he like all gursikhs did seva with mercy and compassion.

You keep implying that Singhs did mindless acts similar to Alqieda style today. I disagree. I ask you to name when Bhai fauja Singh, sant Jarnial Singh and Bhai Sukhdev Singh did sangarsh against the rules set by Sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh ji? Name an incident veer ji?

Yes bombs were blasted in Punjab in marketplaces, but who were blasting them? It certainly was not Singhs. Singhs like karam Singh babbar were bringing those to justice who were doing this, they were black cats. Singh did bombs to kill Beanta, Gobind ram, and those who planned the Delhi roits. They did not bomb innocent punjabis in marketplaces. These were done by those who wanted to give the Singhs a bad name.

I perfectly accept that Gursikhs should do sangarsh with assols. What I am saying is that the significant number of them did. They should not have to apologise for the wrong acts of punjab police, Indian army and black cats. That is rediculous.

I suggest you take time and actually read about the jeevans of the Singh who are criticizing. Or do abyass and have darshan of them.

Further veer ji, if you think they wre not worthy, then there is nothing stopping you showing how it should be done. KPS GIll is still alive, unless you consider him a man of peace?

The Singhs did not talk of internet boards, they did the seva, took the torture and gave thier shaheedi. Veer ji, do what it takes, it not that easy is it? But do not just talk about it in a patronising manner.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

P.s. veer ji, I believe punjab trauma was set up by Punjab Police themselves. They have numerous sites. Including a martyrs gallery, where the murderous rapists like Gobind ram are eulogised. Check who makes the sites before, or who funds them before you believe everything you read on them. Just like many Indian army generals have written book on Operation bluestar... Try and be more intelligent that to be a mouthpiece of propoganda for punjab police. Did you take time out while on the site, to ask why punjab police were not acting like a civilised police force, and what steps they have taken to stop corruption, murder, rape, torture, humiliation, false case, false encounters, mass graves, or is your time just for asking accountability from Singhs? If we search the truth, then you have investigate all of that, and work to bring them to justice.

[fists_of_fury]

Wicked posts Jagjit Paji and Bijla Singh.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

A nation who doesn't remember and respect and thank those who died for it, doesn't deserve to live

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Could of said it better myself.

:lol:

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Is it just me or has Namstang just been going around in circles. As Jagjit Singh has asked Namstang to provide details of any of those Shaheed Gursikhs who ever killed innocent people. But Namstang just goes around and around in circles. He asks Bhai Jagjit Singh to define what a Shaheed is!! Sorry Bro but if you don't know what a Shaheed is then maybe you should be listening less to 'ghost' stories and taking time to read more about our glorious history. Unless you can name a specific Shaheed who killed innocents then your argument is lost. He didn't have much of an argument in the first place especially if he places reliance on a duff propaganda site like punjabtrauma. That site is similar to the Nazis setting up a site 'proving' that the Jews were terrorists because they killed 6 million germans in the gas chambers! There is a well known saying..' give a dog a bad name and then hang him' This is what Punjabtrauma has been doing, they are trying to place all the blame for the killings of innocents by black cats and nangs like Phoola on the Kharkoos. The sad part is that we have Sikhs taking their propaganda and trying to blacken the name of the Shaheeds. Bhai Jagjit Singh has so elequently described the debt we owe to our great Shaheeds of the period 1978-1995. They were no less than the Shaheeds like Baba Deep Singh, Bhai Taru Singh, Bhai Boota Singh etc. They gave their tan man and dhan for Sikhi, the fact that there is nothing tangible in the form of a sovereign Khalistan is not the fault of the Shaheeds but the fault of those like Badal who used their Shaheedi in order to become Chief Ministers and create political dynasties for their families. Also to blame are those who are so blinkered in their views that they cannot see when they are lied to and when Great Shaheeds are depicted as criminal thugs and murderers. Unfortunately while there have been great Shaheeds we have also had our share of great traitors.

Recently it has been heartening that the younger generation in the UK as well as US and Canada have been taking steps to keep alive the memory of those Great Shaheeds. But for some people the very mention of those who gave their lives for Sikhi is hard to swallow. They want that Sikhs should forget the great Shaheeds and those who have contributed zilch to Sikhi think they can pontificate to fellow Sikhs on who is a Great Shaheed and who is just a common murderer. To this end great Shaheeds like Bhai Fauja Singh were described as a nang and as a vegetarian fanatic by someone who isn't fit to even to tie the shoes of such a great Shaheed. We have had others on other forums criticising Sant Jarnail Singh because apparantly they know better how to fight a war against a million strong army and a tyrannical government. They think that they know better and as such they think Santji should not have stayed in Akal Takht and come up with 'better' battle tactics probably gained from watching Robin Hood films!! The funny think is that one such 'salaahkar' wasn't even a Sikh in 1984.

As Bhai Jagjit Singh wrote, the Shaheeds cannot defend their actions on this forum and it should be one of the duties of anyone who calls himself a Sikh to firstly know the reasons for them giving their lives for Sikhi and then to be able to defend them against the charges brought by those who think that we should be apologising for the Shaheed's actions. If anyone should be apologising it should be Namstang for trying to blacken the name of those who gave their all for Sikhi.