Sarabloh

[N30S1NGH]

Sarbloh bibek is good to have but again not everything is black and white in Sikhi. Sarbloh bibek is "NOT" absolutely neccesary in Gursikhi Bhagti Marg. I wouldn't diss any sarbloh bibeki out there..they have my support and respect... It's good for them they keep external bibek. I just hope they pay as much intention to internal bibek as well while they are maintaining external bibek.

You have many mahapursh ie- hoti mardan mahapursh, rara sahib waley, reru sahib waley, bhindranwale mahapursh, mustaneywaley who did not kept sarbloh bibek but still got bhram da gyan by kirpa of Satguru. And Nobody on this forum can challenge that.

People who are sarbloh bibeki, some of them create black and white notions of things- do or don't ..if you don't do what they beleif.. you are following manmat, you are kacha-pilla singh with no rehit.. blah blah blah...i mean there are

levels of bibek, rehit.. for example- baba jagjit singh ji and his murshid they

were both sarbloh bibeki.. however difference between bibek they followed

is way different than bibek black/white/katarvadi sikhs follow.. they know where to

use bibek and where not to... baba jagjit singh ji openly said in a

tape-mentioning one prof sahib as vadda bibeki( in sarcasm)..he wouldnt eat from his mother or wife.. what good is the bibek when you hurting others and when there is no pyaar towards creation..black/white/katarvadi sikhs don't get it... their bhai sahib said- bibek.. that's it.. bibek for life.they don't understand different levels of bibek... they don't agree that

there is some times you gotta have very minimum bibek and sometimes

normal ALL Depends on the circumstances.. also there are levels of outer rehit

as well. Let me give you example:

sant baba jawala singh ji was very close with sant baba

Gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale.. baba jawala singh ji when he lived with udasi

mastana fakir after getting premission from his murshid/gurdev - baba aya singh

ji hoti mardanwaley..he got so intoxicated with naam rang living with

mastana fakir... he toook off all his clothes... sat on a river in naam masti

rang..upon hearing this baba aya singh ji advised him to take amrit again

that not that he committed any kurahit or broke any rehit or guru maharaj

was not happy but only because sant baba jawala singh ji's students may

notget this kautak and may go astray... levels of rehit/bibek are for

students (like us) to be honest...it can not be pushed down in throats of

mahapursh..mahapursh according to their will...they can adapt any three

natures* .. i got that from baba jagjit singh ji

book..now if this sakhi was narrated to people who follow black/white sikhi..it will really challenge their beleifs..since they have notions of black and white..

they will either say this sakhi is false or say sant baba jawala singh ji

committed kurahit/manmat taking all of his clothes with kachera, kirpan

which is quite expected because they are not aware of grey (exceptional

area). They would also reach similiar conculsations towards other mahapursh ie- sant baba atttar singh ji mustaneywale, baba nand singh ji , baba isher singh ji rara sahib.

Three natures of Bhramgyanis*:

source: The Radiance of complete journey to Akaal Purkh by Sant baba Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowaley.

Three kinds of BhramGyani(Sants,Mahatama, Mahapursh)...

1. Mastane: Intoxicated ones through remembrance get themselves merged with Almighty(Vahiguroo). More carefree un-attached will boldly function. Do not reveal their secret. Talk in Mysterious tone. Very few rarely come to understand. Have no time to teach common people. Always remain lost in spiritual contemplation. Some rare persons can take benefit from them.

2. Divane- Madhin lover remain intoxicated in God's love but give out sometime such inner secret that proves a source of life for the seekers, who after having themselves proven worth in their sight are also able to colour others in God's Love.

3. Daane- The wise ones who live according to what they preach and talk in understandable tone which benefits all and hearing which people renounce evil deeds. They always treat the path of truth and are eager for welfare of one and all.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Bijlaa Singh don't misuse Sarbloh Ji Ki Rashya Humnai to promote Sarbloh Bibek. That has nothing to do with eating from Sarbloh and stuff. That is about Ustat of Akaal.

As for why Khanday Ki Pahul (Amrit) is prepared in Sarbloh, go do research for youself and find out. Spend some time.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

I don't mind people eating in Sarbloh as long as they don't bring these ideas to Gurudwaras and say "we are not eating langar here because it is not made in Sarbloh".

A lot of people cut hair, does that make it right? No.

Ganga Sagar isn't Sarbloh either.

[Bijla Singh]

My whole point was that Sarabloh has significance in Sikhi and has an importance. I am not responsible for your misunderstanding. Sarabloh is not a "hollow ritual". Period. Guru Rakha.

[Kharkoo4Life]

Very true but we are strictly speaking of sarab loh rehat which has been practiced by many true gursikhs who very well understood Sikhi. Sarab Loh is a hard rehat for a normal person to keep. Unless someone understands its importance they cannot simply start keeping it. “Blind faith” usually results from cultural traditions that are practiced by majority of the people in the society and are easy to follow.

Firstly, i agree with ur defintion of blind faith BUT would also add that it does not necessarly have to be something easy to follow. Even things which are hard to follow can be blind faith. e.g. many sadhus till this day practice extreme penances and austerities, many which takes years if not decades to master. None of these can be classified as easy yet all are blind faith. The key to blind faith is practicing something and accepting it as true and right simply cuz eithers others have told u to or that others have been doing it themselves so it has to be. Any action which lacks bibek budhi is blind faith.

There is a fine line between idol worship and sarab loh rehat. Gurbani clearly condemns idol worship because only ONE is worthy of worship. Sarab Loh is not worshipped in any way. Neither it is a hollow ritual nor did it creep into Sikhi from outside. If it did maybe you can show some reference. If you are questioning sarab loh then you seek answers which require you to read Gurmat Bibek and understanding what it really is.

i did not refer to sarbloh rehat as idol worship itself. I was simply trying to show the duality we often employ when classifying somethnig as karam kaand. We are quick to jump and label something done by non-sikhs as formulating karam kaand (e.g. idol worship, pilgramages, baths at 'holy' rivers) yet when practices exist in sikhs lives which have no basis from a gurmat standpoint and are equally questionable we put up a quick defensive wall and attack all those who even have the curiousity to question and ascertain the value and meaning of these practices. The guru themselves thru various examples taught the sikhs the importance to always question any act they felt was not in accordance with gurmat (e.g. sakhi of guru gobind singh walkin by muslim grave). So do not feel threatened by a fellow sikh who questions anothers actions with the best interest in mind. Rather be open to hear their views and wether they have any validity and if so are the things they questioning truly pointless or not.

In other words you are against it no matter what. First you asked for evidence then escaped through a loop hole by stating that their actions couldn't be called "right". Not all Singhs kept sarab loh but that doesn’t prove that it is a “hollow ritual” or has no significance. Majority of the people we are considering in this case are the ones who had better understanding about Sikhi than all of us otherwise they wouldn’t have been able to sacrifice for Sikhi.

Two points about above. Simply stating that a number of people do something (regardless how big that number, or how well respected and admired those people) cannot be categorized as sufficient evidence. I have asked many times if you can give me evidence from gurbani which forms the basis for a sikh holding a particular type of food-cooking utensil rehit then please do as i am fully willing to listen to it, and if i am wrong to admit my mistake and even follow it if it can be provided.

Second point, i truly sympathize with the efforts and courage of many sikhs during the 80's, particularly those who were true in their intentions and actions. I hold immeasurable respect for them. However, that being said, in a general sense, sacrificing ones one own life is not in itself a great achievement or in any way reflective of a higher inner understanding. Before u become angry and argumentative about this simply consider this one point, the men who crashed the planes into the twin towers, or the countless men and women who still cover their own bodies with bombs all do so with an intent to "sacrifice themselves for a better cause" but does their action of simply willing to die alone classify those people as having a higher inner understanding about anything?

SO what does this mean? That dying for somethin is not great in itself, it becomes only great if what the person is dying for is great to begin with. And with regards to dying for the right to practice sikhi i fully agree that it is a great act. However, if a person dies for any cause, it does not necessarily mean they have full or deep understanding about it. I am sure there are many singhs during the 80's who became Singhs after all the crimes and attacks done against sikh and fought to their last breath against those, which is a highly admirable and inspiring thing, but to assume that most of those people who had just recently become singhs, many of whom probably had very limited memorization or even understanding of entire nitnem had deeper understanding of gurbani would be highly optimistic.

The same also applies to you. Puratan Sikhs who kept sarab loh bibek did not learn it from their “sant/sadhus” because most derawadi people do not keep this rehat. Sarab Loh rehat is practiced by Gursikhs. So if majority of the Gursikhs support bibek/sarab loh then it is right. Perhaps you can explain who taught Bhai Randhir Singh Ji and Akali Kaur Singh Ji to keep sarab loh? and how they were wrong?

i Agree it applies to me too, that anything one learns has to have a source. But anything which i learn and choose to follow, i only do so if i fully understand the reasoning behind it and if it makes sense to me with regards to being in line with the teachings of the guru. If i feel any action or belief does not fit in line with the teachings of the guru, i do not care what the source (book or person(s)) for it is or if i have learned 100 gud things from that source before which i now follow, i will adamantly refuse to follow this one thing if it doesn not have any basis when measured agasint the reference guide of gurbani.

And with due respect, people who are committed to support and encourage the practice of sarabloh bibek are always quick to cite Bhai Randhi Singh ji as a primary example of its value. I have nothing against that, but why stop with a gursikh and not instead look at GUru Nanak himself to see if that action/belief holds any value. Granted there are and have been many blessed gursikhs but i would never dare to look at their life as a primary example of a true sikhi jeevan over that of teh gurus themselves. Their lives always have been and shall remain as the primary reference for the true lifestyle of a Sikh.

Guru Nanak travelled nearly the whole world eating out of the same utensils as the local people did and it had no effect on his "spirituality" so why should we feel that the utensils should affect ours?

First of all, Guru Nanak Dev Ji ate from the house of His Sikhs and not from people like Sajjan thug. So it makes Him a bibeki. Second, it is foolish to compare our spirituality with that of Guru Sahib’s. Keep sarab loh for a while and see how it affects you. No sarab lohi person claims that all the spirituality lies within sarab loh. Every bibeki and sarab lohi person knows that without Gurmat Bibek Rehat Bibek is of no importance.

No one has yet been able to provide any good counterargument about the questions i raised with regard to guru nanak's travels. you say he at the house of His sikhs, well tell me this, was all of asia already sikhs before he even went to those cities? Or did they all instantaneously become sikhs as soon as he crossed the border into their country? Any where people became sikhs it was not thru some instant magical omen wher the person went eureka i am a sikh now! The people followed Guru Nanak because he sat down with them, had open discussions with them, listening to their questions and giving them well reasoned logic based answers which made them realize that hey, what this person is sayins is so true and what we have been following our whole lives has been meaningless. This transformation took place gradually as people attained an understanding of Guru Nanaks message. Very few ppl would have been blessed to understand his message instantly for it is very deep, and furthermore, even in this modern age of science and knowledge, most ppl still fail to udnerstand his message. So this means that most ppl at that time where guru travelled were all following their own customs, rituals so how did guru nanak manage to always eat out of sarbloh and have his food prepared by ppl who themselves followed this (if in fact guru nanak followed this rehat himself)?

Also as i pointed out earlier, understand WHY guru nanak refused sajjan thaags food. IT had notthign to do with the utensils but because of the dishonest means he used to gather the food. What is dishonest about a plastic or styrofoam cup vs a sarbloh cup??

All i have stressed is that the physical vessel from which you consume your food does not alter the state of your soul.

I beg to differ. Every physical action has some impact on our mind and soul. For example, Sikhs use Sarab Loh Bata during Amrit Sanchaar which has deeply spiritual effect on anyone who drinks it. If anything we eat and drink had no effect on us then Guru Ji wouldn’t have made it mandatory to take Amrit. By the way, have you ever eaten food that was prepared by Amritdhari Sikhs while reciting Gurbani? You should to see the difference.

You are grossly confusing physical items with physical actions. OF course physical actions matter, i have not said they dont. But physical vessels do not. IF i wear a kurta made of cotton vs silk it will not change the state of my soul. OR if i choose to wear a shirt and pant it will still have no affect on my soul. Those are mere physical items. ANd the reason during amrit sanchaar the amrit pani has an effect on the person is two things: 1) the singing and focus of ones mind on gurbani throghout the entire process and 2) the belief adn trust of the listener in the importance and shaktee of bani. The bata itself has no importance in the process. Ohterwise, tell me why do so many people who partake in the amrti from this bata whcih u say has "deeply spiritual affect on anone who drinks it" in no less than a few days or weeks time abandont their rehit or beging committing kureits? Because the ppl lacked the 2 things above, belife and focus on gurbani. The shaktee lies not in the bata but in bani!!

So using plastic bowl during Amrit Sanchaar is ok if metal doesn’t matter? Naam is everything. Naam purifies one’s soul, mind and physical body. Gurbani says so.

If 10 devoted followers of the guru with nothing but true love for the guru wished to partake in amrit, and lets say hypothetically they lived in an area with no available metal utensils but engaged in an amrit sanchaar where they were relegated to using a plastic bowl do u think the guru would condemn them as not being true khalsa? would he accuse them of being fakes? Or would he see that inside their hearts and minds were pure and that they were making the best of what was made available to them? These things pertaining to rehit of our sansarak customs were made by fellow sikhs to help a sikh live the simplest and easiest life on the path of sikhi and shud not be taken as all or nothing injuctions which if one does not follow will be shunned. For instance, we all know a person is to sit on the floor cross legged in darbar of guru granth sahib as show of respect and equality, but if someone is paralyzed or inflicted with severe physiolgical pain or disease, will they be told to get out of their wheelchair, or told they cant use a chair and have to sit on the floor no matter how hard and painful it is? When we apply such extreme adherence to these trivial social customs they become full of bharam that ifi dont follow them the guru will not be pleased or i will be disprespcting them. THIS IS WRONG. These rehits were written by sikhs with best interest of their fellow sikhs. THey wre not written by the gurus. This does not mean we shudnt follow them, but we shouldnt apply a sense of bharam to them so that if in extreme circumstances one cant fully adhere to it then show compassion towards them.

ALso u urself admit that naam purifies everything. SO why cant naam purify a plastic cup? or a styrofoam plate? Are these things so evil that they are reistant to the effects of Naam?

We should remember Waheguru Ji 24/7 no one denies that especially sarab lohi Sikhs who put great emphasis on Naam Simran. However, physical efforts do matter. Four bajjar kurehats are physical, are they not? Panj Kakkars are physical as well. One cannot be a Khalsa without keeping inner and outer rehat.

Equating the four bajjar kurehats with one who does not follow sarbloh rehit is ridiculous. The four kurehats each have a deep meaning behind them and hold sound practical/spiritual reasoning behind. But can the same be said about sarbloh rehit? And panj kakkars are in a class by themselves. They are part of the uniform of a Sikh blessed by guru himself which no sikh has authority to alter. Sarbloh was not part of any uniform or rehit that the guru instructed sikhs to follow.

I urge you to study Gurmat Bibek so you can understand what bibek really is. In Sikhi remembering Waheguru is only one type of bibek, however, there are others. Naam is the foundation which requires strong house of rehat to be built upon it.

Naam and waheguru are the same thing. They cannot be regarded as two separate things. Bibek means discerning, or strong reason based or logical. What is logical about believing one type of metal is more spiritually condusive than another?

ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੀ ਰਛਾ ਹਮਨੈ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਹ ਦੀ ਰਛਿਆ ਹਮਨੈ ॥

ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਰਛਿਆ ਹਮਨੈ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਹ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਸਦਾ ਰਛਿਆ ਹਮਨੈ ॥

The non-temporal Purusha (All-Pervading Lord) is my Protector. The All-Steel Lord is my Protector. The All-Destroying Lord is my Protector. The All-Steel Lord is ever my Protector.

What about the quote above? Or did I fail to understand the metaphor again?

2 points about above reference:

1) Is it from Guru Granth Sahib? If not can u provide a refernce from Guru Granth Sahib which either relates to this or supports the above lines?

2) Please explain what the lines above mean. DOes it mean we are to worship sarabloh as our lord? I surely hopenot cuz i thoguht a sikh is to worship only waheguru as our lord. Or does it mean our lord himself is made of sarab loh? CUz last i remember our lord has no form.

rUpu n ryK n rMgu ikCu iqRhu gux qy pRB iBMn ]

He has no form, no shape, no color; God is beyond the three qualities.

iqsih buJwey nwnkw ijsu hovY supRsMn ]1]

They alone understand Him, O Nanak, with whom He is pleased

In closing, i hope u do not take any of my comments in this post as an attack but rather use them as a base to further review ur own beliefs and if they are right to further strenghten ur understanding in them, and also an opportunity to show me where i am wrong and dispell any misunderstanding i may have about what is right and wrong according to gurmat.

Rab Rakha

[Kharkoo4Life]

wj

[Kharkoo4Life]

Sarbloh bibek is  "NOT" absolutely neccesary in Gursikhi Bhagti Marg. I wouldn't diss any sarbloh bibeki out there..they have my support and respect... It's good for them they keep external bibek. I just hope they pay as much intention to internal bibek as well while they are maintaining external bibek.

People who are sarbloh bibeki, some of them create black and white notions of things- do or don't ..if you don't do what they beleif.. you are following manmat, you are kacha-pilla singh with no rehit.. blah blah blah

FUlly agree! (looks like there are some points we do finally agree on, lol)

baba jagjit singh ji openly said in a

tape-mentioning one prof sahib as vadda bibeki( in sarcasm)..he wouldnt eat from his mother or wife.. what good is the bibek when you hurting others and when there is no pyaar towards creation..black/white/katarvadi sikhs  don't get it... their bhai sahib said- bibek.. that's it.. bibek for life.

Exactly my point!! If one wishes to follow it so be it. But to say it is mandatory and required for all sikhs to do so, or that if a sikh does it will be better for his spirituality is completely wrong. How one wishes to eat their food is upto them, but no person can force 'their' way as the right way over others.

[Kharkoo4Life]

I hold no personal grudge against anyone who wishes to follow sarabloh bibek. But my whole point is that we have made it into a ritual that if one doesnt do it they will be doomed to suffer, but if they do follow it they will get some better spiritual gain. The following post highlights this very dangerous mindset.

"How can you tell me tha if i drink milk from a sarbloh cup it will be better for my spirituality versus if i drink from a plastic cup?"

plastic cup can get jooth, sarbloh one cant, as u remove a layer wen u wash it

if u do no naam of either there will be no difference, if u do naam over both, there will b a difference, the milk in the sarbloh bata will help u jap naam more.

144524[/snapback]

Plastic cup can get jooth and sarbloh cant?? What kind of preposterous logic is this based on? It baffles me to see so many sikhs out there still holding onto brahmnical ideology of jooth.

And the milk in sarbloh will help u jap more? Cmon, i hope not all who follow the sarabloh bibek have such beliefs. Milk remains milk wether u drink it out of plastic cup, glass cup, or sarabloh cup. Milk does not become more pure or more spiritual by putting it in a special container. It is so sad that we have now fallen to such low thinking where even the value of naam has become dependant on mere physical man made objects.

all metals have been created by god, tht dnt make them all the same.

all men have been made by god, so are u aying that a man who utters naam with every breath is the same as a man who commits millions of sins all the time because god made all men??

How can u compare a metal to man? There is no basis for the above comparison u make. Its like comparing a car and a rock and which is better for transportation purposes. To even consider the rock as a means of transportation is ridiculous. Similarly to consider a piece of metal and man to both be spiritual vehicles is equally ridiculous. Man is the onlly spiritual vessel created capable of realizing God and shud be compared to fellow man alone.

sarbloh is what we should eat from, full stop

If u wish to do so then that is ur perogative and by all means u may do so. I respect ur choice and am not out to force u to change. But i will not stand by and listen to someone saying that sarbloh is the only thing we shud be eating from.

Have u considered the thousands of different packages, materials, containers the food comes into contact with before it is brought for sale at the store? From the time the food is harvested, proccessed, packaged, transported, it will have come into contact with hundreds of different materials (and im sorry to tell u that most are not sarbloh!! ) and likewise has been handled by hundreds of people almost none of whom are amritdhari sikhs, let alone be following the sarabloh. And if one truly wish to be HONEST AND TRUE to their sarbloh bibeki then either do it 100% which means no food unless grown and processed by themself (or another amritdhari) from start to point where they put it in ur mouth. ANything short of that wud be considered compromise on something which they deem sooo important to their spirituality.

[ParnaamShaheedaNu]

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa

Waheguru ji ki Fateh

To the person that originally started this post:

I suggest you try sarbloh before listening to what anyone else says, and see for yourself whether it helps your jeevan or not, and whether you think you can feel a difference or not.

Nothing more needs to be said, beyond that. Just try it for yourself and you'll see whether you need it or not, whether it is/isn't important, and whether your soul feels like doing it or whether it doesn't seem to make a difference to you. No one knows the flavour of something until they taste it, and no one really has the right to refute something until they have personally experienced it (in my opinion)

So I think, enough people have argued against or for sarbloh, but you wont know reality until you witness it yourself. So I suggest you try it now and see how it feels, hopefully you will realize what you personally need and Satguru ji will guide you on the right path. Just a humble suggestion. Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa

Waheguru ji ki Fateh

[amarjeet_singh_1699]

I hold no personal grudge against anyone who wishes to follow sarabloh bibek.  But my whole point is that we have made it into a ritual that if one doesnt do it they will be doomed to suffer, but if they do follow it they will get some better spiritual gain.  The following post highlights this very dangerous mindset.

"How can you tell me tha if i drink milk from a sarbloh cup it will be better for my spirituality versus if i drink from a plastic cup?"

plastic cup can get jooth, sarbloh one cant, as u remove a layer wen u wash it

if u do no naam of either there will be no difference, if u do naam over both, there will b a difference, the milk in the sarbloh bata will help u jap naam more.

144524[/snapback]

Plastic cup can get jooth and sarbloh cant?? What kind of preposterous logic is this based on? It baffles me to see so many sikhs out there still holding onto brahmnical ideology of jooth.

And the milk in sarbloh will help u jap more? Cmon, i hope not all who follow the sarabloh bibek have such beliefs. Milk remains milk wether u drink it out of plastic cup, glass cup, or sarabloh cup. Milk does not become more pure or more spiritual by putting it in a special container. It is so sad that we have now fallen to such low thinking where even the value of naam has become dependant on mere physical man made objects.

all metals have been created by god, tht dnt make them all the same.

all men have been made by god, so are u aying that a man who utters naam with every breath is the same as a man who commits millions of sins all the time because god made all men??

How can u compare a metal to man? There is no basis for the above comparison u make. Its like comparing a car and a rock and which is better for transportation purposes. To even consider the rock as a means of transportation is ridiculous. Similarly to consider a piece of metal and man to both be spiritual vehicles is equally ridiculous. Man is the onlly spiritual vessel created capable of realizing God and shud be compared to fellow man alone.

sarbloh is what we should eat from, full stop

If u wish to do so then that is ur perogative and by all means u may do so. I respect ur choice and am not out to force u to change. But i will not stand by and listen to someone saying that sarbloh is the only thing we shud be eating from.

Have u considered the thousands of different packages, materials, containers the food comes into contact with before it is brought for sale at the store? From the time the food is harvested, proccessed, packaged, transported, it will have come into contact with hundreds of different materials (and im sorry to tell u that most are not sarbloh!! ) and likewise has been handled by hundreds of people almost none of whom are amritdhari sikhs, let alone be following the sarabloh. And if one truly wish to be HONEST AND TRUE to their sarbloh bibeki then either do it 100% which means no food unless grown and processed by themself (or another amritdhari) from start to point where they put it in ur mouth. ANything short of that wud be considered compromise on something which they deem sooo important to their spirituality.

144629[/snapback]

u are confused beyond belief

if a man holds a cup of water and swears and curses well holding it and anoba man prays while holding a cup of water u think there is no difference

and to the dumbest idea i have heard in my life. amrit in a plastic bata??????

no. amrit is not amrit unless it is in a sarbloh bata. next ull be saying, what if there were only 4 singhs, cud we have 4 pyareh? if there is no bata , its was hukam that those singhs werent to take amrit yet.

and even if it was still amrit that still DOESNT ansa my question. why is the bata in an amrit sanchaar in a sarbloh bata??

"Plastic cup can get jooth and sarbloh cant?? What kind of preposterous logic is this based on? It baffles me to see so many sikhs out there still holding onto brahmnical ideology of jooth."

how is it ritualistic. u remove layer of sarbloh when u wash it. u cant rmeove layuer of plastic sounds like common sense to me

theres no point arguing wiv ppl like u. ur confused beyond help