Sarbloh Bibek

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Read Gurmat Maartund. It talks about sarbloh. I will scan and post it when i get time. Maybe you didn't know but Guru Ji also did jhatka. Do you do that too?? No, because you are under influence of Vaishnav mutt. Let me tell you why Amrit is prepared in sarabloh. Branhmans never ate in Sarbaloh. Their books call it filthy and associate it with low castes. Guru Ji used Sarabloh to remove this superstition. Karas are made from Sarabloh/Steel because it is cheap and everyone can get it. Everyone can't get gold karas and the differences of rich and poor would not be eradicated.

"Was he also buying into Vaishnav Mat?"

Now you tell me if Guru Ji was buying into vaishnav mutt or you are buying into Vaishnav mutt.

Vaishanv mutt belives in eating only from sarabloh. It is a ritual. In the Khalsa Panth, we call rituals, Brahmanvaad as it has always been the brahmans or brahman influenced people who have entered useless rituals into religions. E.g. Entrance of fire worship in Buddism, entrance of nareeal, joat and kum, sampat paaths in our kaum, sarabloh rehat in our kaum, etc. etc. Bottom line, Sarabloh batta in Amrit Sanchaars acts as ego breaker, high caste/low caste remover, removes bhurm of jhooth, etc. etc. Maybe you or your derawala who you follow also didn't know that Hill Rajas accepted to take Amrit if the batta was not Sarabloh and Amrit wasn't given together with so-called low caste people.

Is ganga sagar made from Sarabloh?? Is the mujj or gaan that gives the milk, made from sarabloh??? Is your toothpaste packaged in Sarabloh?? Is your toothbrush made from Sarabloh?? If not, then whatever you do on name of Sarablh rehat is nothing but pakand and is only to show your higher and better and more Gursikh than others. Even Bipran kee reet has a limit.

[Guest Papi]

o snap

[Singh132]

"Khalsa Fauj",

If sarbloh wasn't important, then why not use pittal? That was just as common? Why call Vahiguru Sarbloh? As for Jhatka, I hope you know that THAT is a Hindu practice that was in existence much before the Sikhs. At any rate, I'm not going to argue the meat issue with you here on this thread but Guru Hargobind Sahib's hukumnamas make it very clear meat and fish are forbidden in Sikhi.

I find it interesting that you think I belong to some dera. I in fact don't believe in any dera and don't have any affiliation or do sangat with anyone that calls himself "Sant".

The Hill Rajas did not bring Sarbloh as an issue when refusing to take amrit, only that they should be given amrit separately from the lower castes.

Could you tell me which "books" call sarbloh filthy? It is in fact one of the cleaner materials because each time you clean it, you are re-surfacing it.

Your tirade about brahmism entering Sikhi doesn't make sense either. I've already asked you which Brahmin or Vaishnav you know of that eats only in Sarbloh? The other practices you mentioned like coconuts etc. are Hindu practices. Can you tell me which Hindu eats only in sarbloh? Please show me where Vaishnav mat uses sarbloh or where Brahmins condemn sarbloh. Both your statements seem false to me. In fact they don't make any sense. On one hand you are saying sarbloh is Vaishnav Mat and on the other you're saying Brahmins hate it. Brahmins are also followers of Vaishnavism as it is the major stream of Hinduism.

Sarbloh was given by Guru Gobind Singh to his Sikhs and it is Guru Sahib's rehit that has been preserved in all amrit sinchaars (even degh is prepared in sarbloh there) and even at the Takhats where the degh is kept in sarbloh. If this is ritualism/brahminism, then according to your thought so are kakaars and the keeping of kesh and not eating jooth, etc. Is parshaad and dipping kirpan in it also Hindu-mat?

[The Khalsa Fauj]

"Khalsa Fauj",

If sarbloh wasn't important, then why not use pittal? That was just as common? Why call Vahiguru Sarbloh? As for Jhatka, I hope you know that THAT is a Hindu practice that was in existence much before the Sikhs. At any rate, I'm not going to argue the meat issue with you here on this thread but Guru Hargobind Sahib's hukumnamas make it very clear meat and fish are forbidden in Sikhi.

I find it interesting that you think I belong to some dera. I in fact don't believe in any dera and don't have any affiliation or do sangat with anyone that calls himself "Sant".

The Hill Rajas did not bring Sarbloh as an issue when refusing to take amrit, only that they should be given amrit separately from the lower castes.

Could you tell me which "books" call sarbloh filthy? It is in fact one of the cleaner materials because each time you clean it, you are re-surfacing it.

Your tirade about brahmism entering Sikhi doesn't make sense either. I've already asked you which Brahmin or Vaishnav you know of that eats only in Sarbloh? The other practices you mentioned like coconuts etc. are Hindu practices. Can you tell me which Hindu eats only in sarbloh? Please show me where Vaishnav mat uses sarbloh or where Brahmins condemn sarbloh. Both your statements seem false to me. In fact they don't make any sense. On one hand you are saying sarbloh is Vaishnav Mat and on the other you're saying Brahmins hate it. Brahmins are also followers of Vaishnavism as it is the major stream of Hinduism.

Sarbloh was given by Guru Gobind Singh to his Sikhs and it is Guru Sahib's rehit that has been preserved in all amrit sinchaars (even degh is prepared in sarbloh there) and even at the Takhats where the degh is kept in sarbloh. If this is ritualism/brahminism, then according to your thought so are kakaars and the keeping of kesh and not eating jooth, etc. Is parshaad and dipping kirpan in it also Hindu-mat?

DUDE! Did you even read my post??? You are talking your own thing here. Looks like you didn't understand the post. Read again. If you don't understand, read again. Please. Kirpaa Kurkay dubaara parrooh. When I read posts like this. I wonder what can be done to have the other person understand or read properly? Like I said, when I get time, I will scan the page from Gurmat maartund and post it.

As for which Vaishnav I have seen, do you even know what vaishnav mutt is??? As for the hukamna, that is a fake hukamnama. If not, your wife is also going to be meat also, if you are not married. Don't go near her. Stay away from meat as Hukamnama says.

[Singh132]

You haven't answered any of my questions.

1 Where did you read that the hill rajas did not accept sarbloh? It is not in any history I've read

2) Which Hindu book says iron utensils are bad? Where have you read (besides Martund) that Vaishnavs use Sarbloh? Which Vaishnav groups do you know of that use it?

3) How is sarbloh bibek giving into Hindu-mat akin to the examples you gave of keeping coconut etc? Coconuts are a clear part of Hindu ritual and worship. Which Hindus do you know keep sarbloh bibek?

4) A large portion of the Vaishnavs are brahmins. So if vaishnavs use sarbloh and brahmins condemn it, how do the two co-exist? Vaishnavism is a school of Hinduism is it not.

The hukumnamas (plural) are fake are they? They have been authenticated by Dr. Ganda Singh but for some reason you think you know better? There is still a Gurdwara in the hills around Anandpur Sahib where the local villagers have it as their tradition that they don't eat meat or fish or smoke. They still have it in their village history that Guru Hargobind Sahib came and told them to avoid these things and a fatal disease that was killing them would stop. They to this day avoid these things. They must be faking their village story as well.

Maas is not to be hated or anything like that and touching it does not pollute and giving it up alone is no path to salvation. That said, it still is not allowed in Gurmat.

Finally on Gurmat Martund: although we all respect Bhai Kanh Singh, he's not the be all and end all of Sikhi. He can be wrong and often is. His defintion of kuthaa as Muslim meat is not correct and does not fit the use in Bani.

Lets not debate meat here though.

Finally, although you've accused me of being a Dera goer, (and I reject this) I suspect you may be a little unduly influenced by Panth-dokhi and sexual predator Mr. Kala Afghana. His atheist version of Sikhi is spiritual poison. I have yet to meet a Gursikh with jeevan, amrit vela, bani and naam abhyaas who buys into his propoganda. I hope you haven't either.

[Bijla Singh]

Mr. KF, you should answer the questions raised by Singh132. You are only writing statements without providing any proofs. Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha also wrote in Mahan Kosh that "Waheguru" is not gurmantar and Guru Sahib had 3 wives. Do you agree with that? Only by doing vichaar we can learn more not by attacking others. I know for sure that Singh132 is not a dera follower. He did not attack you once and I don't know what you gain by attacking him and falsely accusing him of something. This only weakens your case. I myself don't keep sarabloh rehat but I don't believe it is against gurmat as sarabloh has much importance in Sikhi. One example being preparing Amrit in Sarabloh Bata and Guru Sahib referring to Akal Purakh as Sarabloh. Sarabloh rehat means preparing food in sarabloh not growing your food in sarabloh. Would you also say that water that is used to prepare Amrit must be out of Sarabloh land? So please provide some evidence and proofs rather than empty statements. I am eager to learn more. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[The Khalsa Fauj]

As to why Sarabloh is used for preparing Amrit. I already answered. I don't know the hindu scripture at the moment. Once I know, I will list it. Another thing, I am not a follower of Kala Afgana, how-ever you are a follower of Bhai Randhir Singh.

Manmukh Hoaye Bunday Daa Bundaa!

1 Where did you read that the hill rajas did not accept sarbloh? It is not in any history I've read

-- I have read it. Your should read some more history. As for Mahan Kosh, Mahan Kosh is just a dictionary/encyclopedia. It doesn't mean whatever is written in Mahan Kosh is what Bhai Kaan Singh nabha said or believed is Gurmat. Also, I never said Bhai Kaan Singh Nabha can't be wrong but he has given reference as to who does this kind of ritual.

2) Which Hindu book says iron utensils are bad? Where have you read (besides Martund) that Vaishnavs use Sarbloh? Which Vaishnav groups do you know of that use it?

-- Not Vaishnav group, Vaishnav mutt. Go to india and see for yourself. Bhai Kaan Singh nabha might have his views on some things but here he has given reference. He doesn't lie.

3) How is sarbloh bibek giving into Hindu-mat akin to the examples you gave of keeping coconut etc? Coconuts are a clear part of Hindu ritual and worship. Which Hindus do you know keep sarbloh bibek?

-- Hinduism has a bunch of sects, all have their own beliefs and rituals. Vaishnav mutt is another one of those. Their scriptures contradict themselves. Brahmans don't have any probs. breaking their own rules to accomplish their missions. E.g. On one hand Brhamans called Budda Athiest and on the other hand, it was his brahman chelas who wrote the buddist scriptures after he died.

4) A large portion of the Vaishnavs are brahmins. So if vaishnavs use sarbloh and brahmins condemn it, how do the two co-exist? Vaishnavism is a school of Hinduism is it not.

-- See #3 and as for it being schol, no. Vaisnavism is not a school. It is ism and isms aren't schools.

Sikhs would be under influence of Vaisnavs iif they only ate in Sarabloh. And once again, understand why Sarabloh batta is used to prepare Amrit.

As for Kala Afgana, I don't care what he says or what he believes. Kala Afgana is a new guy anyways.

I haven't bought into anyone's propaganda but you have bought into propaganda of a Panth Dokhi jatha which is one of the real poisons. Real poison which rejects Guru Panth's maryada so should not even be considered part of the Panth. These are the real Panth Dokhis and gdaars. Neither did these Panth Dokhis fight for Panth. After 84, these Panth Dokhis were busy in trying to implement their own maryadas in Gurudwaras and Sri Akaal Takht Sahib. They also sarted killing Sikhs because they didn't follow their marayda. These derawalas were never Sikhs of Guru Nanak and are Sikhs of their dera only. They talk about Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Khalsa because they want to fool innocents into their dera/jatha. Dera/jatha, same thing. Both are Panth Dokhis unless they follow and preach Akaal Takht marayda.

Show me where does it say in Akaal Takht maryada to eat only in Sarabloh???

How does eating in Sarabloh 24/7 help you in yor spirituality or connect you to God? None of you guys answered if Ganga Sagar is Saraboh or not. As far as I know, it is not. Were those stone koondas discovered in Anadpur Sahib were Sarabloh?? If you want to increase your iron intake, just eat a Vitamin caplet. Vitamins are healthy and doctors recommend you to take it.

[Singh132]

I want to comment on your explanation (however flawed it is) that Guru Gobind Singh picked sarbloh because the Brahmins did not like it (this seems untrue and not backed by any source but for sake of argument I will address this). Our Gurus were not reactionary. They stood FOR something as opposed to standing against things. I dont' think Guru Gobind Singh would design our Amrit Sinchar (divinely inspired initiation for Sikhs) just to shock any community. It doesn't make sense. At any rate, the Brahmins already would've been shocked that all 'castes' have to drink from the same bata. They wouldn't need any added shock. There must have been some positive reason Guru Sahib chose Sarbloh as opposed to doing it just to offend Brahmins. Otherwise we're saying that universal Sikhi, inspired by Vahiguru himself has an initiation ceremony designed specifically to offend and challenge Brahmins? That in my opinion is degrading the ideology of our Satgurus. Sarbloh has a purpose and it's certainly not just to challenge or offend any community.

An analysis of your answers

1) I asked where you read or got the information that the Hill Rajas rejected sarbloh. Your reply:

"I have read it. Your should read some more history"

I asked WHERE you read it. I've read a fair share of history and never have I come across this.

2) I asked which Hindu text says sarbloh is bad. I asked where the source is that says Vaishnav Mat promotes sarbloh. Your reply:

"Not Vaishnav group, Vaishnav mutt. Go to india and see for yourself"

If it is Vaishnav Mat then obviously SOME Vaishnav group must do it? Hare Krishna? Some other? I have been to India many times and I know some information on Vaishnavism and NOWHERE does it say anything about sarbloh. It promotes ahimsa and vegetarian diet but says nothing about Sarbloh. You also haven't told me which Brahmin or Hindu source condemns sarbloh.

3) I asked how sarbloh could be giving in to Hindu mat if no Hindu is sarblohi. It seems like a distinctly Sikh practice.

Your answer: NONE. Unfortunately you gave a long winded answer with no real substance.

4) Vaishnavism is a school of Hinduism and is a rival of Shaivism. The priests are Brahmins. I asked how could you resolve your statements that Brahmins hate sarbloh and Vaishnavs use it religiously if a large portion of Brahmins are indeed Vaishnavs.

Your Answer: NONE.

You asked me if I knew what Vaishnavism is. I suggest that perhaps you might want to clear that up for yourself. Vaishnavism is a school of Hinduism and worships Vishnu. It is the largest Hindu group in fact. The rival Shaivaite group is relatively smaller.

At any rate, for your information I am a member of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha and this Jatha has existed for many years before 1984. I may respect Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh but I certainly don't 'follow him'. I follow Satguru Granth Sahib. The tradition of Sarbloh has existed for many years before 1984 as well. It is traced all the way back to Guru Gobind Singh. Bhai Daya Singh's rehitnama mentions it very specifically. I do find it funny that you've called me a Manmukh without knowing the slightest thing about me though.

The Akal Takhat Maryada is a minimum in my eyes and was written by Sikhs just like you and me. They weren't perfect. They worked under a lot of pressures to create something that all Jathas could agree upon. I don't violate the Akal Takhat Maryada by keeping sarbloh bibek. Please tell me where it says NOT to do this?

Next you asked about the Ganga Sagar: which Ganga Sagar should I comment on? The one that the Muslim from Pakistan shows or the one in Bathinda? Both claim to be the same ganga sagar from Nura Mahi. At any rate, it's easy to make up artifacts from Guru Sahib's time.

As for stone koondas: using stone isn't against the tradition of sarbloh. In fact the sarbloh bata in amrit sinchaar is balanced on a stone koonda.

Finally, you asked what benefits sarbloh gives spiritually. You could ask the same thing about kakaars I guess. I could answer the benefits but you are a sceptic and not really interested in hearing them. If someone is genuinely interested then I will say that sarbloh is a very strong conductor. Naam and bani as a vibration influence food we prepare and food prepared in sarbloh takes this effect most strongly.

If you don't want to keep sarbloh, too bad for you. If you would rather eat iron pills, that's fine by me as well (btw. when you eat iron in such a concentrated form, most of it passes right through your system). But when you make BASELESS allegations against Sarbloh Bibek then I have to defend it. Otherwise I don't mind what you cook in. But it is clear that Sarbloh Bibek is Guru Gobind Singh's given rehit.

Anyways, we've had our say, now I think the readers are free to conclude which argument they are willing to accept and who has the stronger argument.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

How is it Guru Gobind ISngh Ji's rehat?? Do you worship Bhai Randheer SIngh as Guru Gobind SIngh Ji??? Only AKJ and shiv worshipping nihungs are true Sikhs eh. Others who don't keep Sarabloh don't follow rehat. If Sarabloh was important, it would have been included or at least recommended in Rehat marayda. Bhai Daya Singh rehatnama also says a lot of other things.

Hare Krishan is a new thing. These guys didn't exist during times of Bhai kaan Singh Nabha. Offshoots spread up. I am talking about the Vaishnavs Bhai Kaan Singh talked about. Gurmat Maartund Pg. 585.

3) I asked how sarbloh could be giving in to Hindu mat if no Hindu is sarblohi.

Your answer: None. Unfortunately you gave a long winded answer with no real substance.

----- I told you, it is copy of Vaishnav mutt. If you aska dera chela, they say they are original Sikhs too. So your statement that Vaishnavs don't do this now is not justifiable. Mostly you see monas calling themselves Sikhs so someone says monas are Sikhs Sikhs, I seen them. This statement doesn't hold much strength and same way hari krishans or other offshoots not eating from sarabloh only doesn't make sence. What do you mean long winded answer without substance??? Promoting equality and removing ouch/neech has no substance?? Treating everyone the same has no substance??? Oh! My bad. You don't belive in this concept.

4) Vaishnavism is a school of Hinduism and is a rival of Shaivism. The priests are Brahmins. I asked how could you resolve your statements that Brahmins hate sarbloh and Vaishnavs use it religiously if a large portion of Brahmins are indeed Vaishnavs.

Your Answer: NONE.

-- If brhamans hating Sikhs can pose as Sikhs (RSS, Buddists, etc.) to change their religions, then how hard is it for them to screw their own offshoot?? How hard is it for them to join vaishnav mutt and screw them???

By questioning if hindu scriptures are you saying I am lying or Bhai Kaan Singh Nabha lied???

I will get you the granth which says that. How do you know Bhai Daya Singh's rehatnama is authentic??

As for Ganga Sagar, who was it given to??? Some saad in bathinda or to the ancestors of the Muslim guy???

Now AKJs are questioning ganga sagar yet always bash kala afganga. People like you are the real promoters of kala afgana??? How?? Anything you don't agre with, you guys bring kala afgana into it. People like you talk about kala afgana, then people want to know more about him and then read his books. So people like you are the real kala afgana promoters. As for his books, I have read none of them.

If you want to only eat in sarabloh and live like a kaidee, then up to you. If you want to follow manmutt, up to you.

If you want to question kakakrs, that is your problem. If you don't understand why we have kakkars, then you problem. So is the toothbrush you use, made from sarabloh?? How is the toothpaste you use, made in sarabloh???

This is a fact that Sikhs did infact eat in Sarabloh at one time to show to the Brahman that Khalsa eats in Sarabloh and isn't any lower htan you.

Haha! Just confirmed, my friend here also doens't eat in loha. He said he would tell me the granth.

[Singh132]

Khalsa Fauj,

Why are you getting so worked up? Debate intelligently and calmly with some examples and evidence.

Sarbloh is Guru Gobind Singh's rehit. Bhai Daya Singh's rehitnama is one of the better rehitnamas that doesn't seem very adulterated. It clearly says Sarbloh is rehit.

Vaishnavs: there's a saying that goes, "either put up or shut up". Show me any vaishnav text or source on vaishnavism that so much as mentions sarbloh. Show me ANY vaishnav that believes in it. There must be at least SOME that do?

You seem to also be saying I'm for "ooch neech". Not at all. A person of any race, caste or background is free to do seva in the bibeki langar as long as they are following Rehit. Simple. Anyone and I mean ANYONE can eat in the langar. That's open to all. But the food served in Guru Ka Langar is prepared by Guru-vale and it is prepared while reciting naam and bani. To ensure this, Gursikhs only do this seva. Simple.

You said,

-- If brhamans hating Sikhs can pose as Sikhs (RSS, Buddists, etc.) to change their religions, then how hard is it for them to screw their own offshoot?? How hard is it for them to join vaishnav mutt and screw them???

Brahmins wouldn't be trying to "screw" anything. Hinduism is divided more or less into two schools: Shaivite and Vaishnav. Brahmins are mainly Vaishnav. They didn't need to join anything. But back to my question: show me any Brahmin source condemning sarbloh or any Vaishnav text supporting it.

This is a fact that Sikhs did infact eat in Sarabloh at one time to show to the Brahman that Khalsa eats in Sarabloh and isn't any lower htan you.

Like I said before. Don't degrade Sikhi with this type of argument. Sikhi is a Panth created by Akal Purakh and revealed by Sri Guru Nanak to Sri Dashmesh jee. It is NOT a reaction to any other religion. That's the same school of thought that says Sikhism is just a sociological phenomenon created by the turbulent times in Punjab. That's utter nonsense. Guru Sahib didn't start any practice to challenge or offend any other religion. That's below them. They did every practice because it was right and the best to lead a spiritual life. Next you'll be saying that Sikhs keep kesh because it was good head protection and there was no time to cut hair. Or you'll say we keep a kirpan just because Mughals had outlawed non-Muslims to wear arms.

NO.

These were all practices introduced by Guru Dashmesh jee for spiritual upliftment. Not just to punk off the Hindus or Muslims.

Like I said, let the readers now decide which arguments they buy.