Usage of satguru phrase and status of krishan in gurbani

[Bijla Singh]

Namstang, you have not written anything new and once again did not refute any of my points. Base your arguments on Gurbani and if you have to use sampardas then you need to go to them and ask for Gurmat reasoning. Just because they do it is not good enough these day. Practices in sampardas have changed over time but Gurbani has not. Unless your's or sampardas' reasons and beliefs are according to Gurbani and not on hindu philosophy I will accept it. I would also like to know what spiritual meanings you have to prove my interpretation wrong.

I suggest you read Krishna and Raam Chandra jeevan first. Raam left this world and cried in the battlefield. Krishna deceived and seduced his cousin and had illicit relations with Radha who wasn't married to him. Such person can never be in sachkhand. Unless there existed some other krishna who obtained naam from Satguru, I would say Sant Jagjit Singh is wrong. And don't every try to compare Guru Sahib to hindu avtars. It is very insulting. Sab Tay Vadda Satgur Nanak.

If there way already a way to reach sachkhand then there was no need to start Sikhi. Guru Sahib would've preached previous ways. But according to Hukam of Waheguru "Nanak Nirmal Panth Chalaeya..". I have already stated that Bhagats became Sikhs of Guru Nanak Sahib and had obtained Naam. Hence, there was no need to come back again.

[TuhiNirankar]

I would like to see reference from Gurbani that there are three layers of Amrit? In fact, Amrit is one as Gurbani says, “Nanak Amrit Ek Hai..” and “Amrit Peeya Satgur Deeya”. Khanday Ki Pahul is a way of initiation and obtaining naam. Once received Sikh will be on the path to sachkhand. No one can be a Sikh of Guru Sahib without taking Amrit and keeping rehat. Charan Pahul was changed to Khanday Ki Pahul after which no other form of initiation existed. Kirpan Amrit is and was never used as a way of initiation. It is used for birth sanskar only.

In gurbani, any amrit refers to amrit ras, naam amrit any mahapursh will tell you this. You show me an reference from gurbani- where gurbani talks about khanda da amrit/charan amrit. Gurbani doesnt talk about outer layer of amrit, but it talks inner amrit- which is naam amrit, atam ras(bhramgyan amrit).

Therer is only amrit which is naam amrit/ amrit ras- bhramgyan amrit--- khanda da amrit, charan amrit, kirpan amrit are all outer layer of that naam amrit.

All bhagats were mukht before sri guru nanak dev ji, stop your tat khalsa progaganda, dont you get tired of same lies lies and lies?

gauVI mhlw 5 ]

gourree mehalaa 5 ||

Gauree, Fifth Mehla:

iqsu gur kau ismrau swis swis ]

this gur ko simaro saas saas ||

I remember the Guru with each and every breath.

guru myry pRwx siqguru myrI rwis ]1] rhwau ]

gur maerae praan sathigur maeree raas ||1|| rehaao ||

The Guru is my breath of life, the True Guru is my wealth. ||1||Pause||

gur kw drsnu dyiK dyiK jIvw ]

gur kaa dharasan dhaekh dhaekh jeevaa ||

Beholding the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan, I live.

gur ky crx Doie Doie pIvw ]1]

gur kae charan dhhoe dhhoe peevaa ||1||

I wash the Guru's Feet, and drink in this water. ||1||

gur kI ryxu inq mjnu krau ]

gur kee raen nith majan karo ||

I take my daily bath in the dust of the Guru's Feet.

jnm jnm kI haumY mlu hrau ]2]

janam janam kee houmai mal haro ||2||

The egotistical filth of countless incarnations is washed off. ||2||

:nihungsmile: http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=739

[Guest Akirtghan]

uh oh, not the literal translation again

[TuhiNirankar]

uh oh, not the literal translation again

as u can see im not too good at understanding bani :wub:

[Guest Akirtghan]

uh oh, not the literal translation again

as u can see im not too good at understanding bani :wub:

if shabad is our guru then how can guru sahib have human feet? (i'm tying this back to namastang's charna amrit thingie)

[N30S1NGH]

I would like to see reference from Gurbani that there are three layers of Amrit? In fact, Amrit is one as Gurbani says, “Nanak Amrit Ek Hai..” and “Amrit Peeya Satgur Deeya”. Khanday Ki Pahul is a way of initiation and obtaining naam. Once received Sikh will be on the path to sachkhand. No one can be a Sikh of Guru Sahib without taking Amrit and keeping rehat. Charan Pahul was changed to Khanday Ki Pahul after which no other form of initiation existed. Kirpan Amrit is and was never used as a way of initiation. It is used for birth sanskar only.

In gurbani, any amrit refers to amrit ras, naam amrit any mahapursh will tell you this. You show me an reference from gurbani- where gurbani talks about khanda da amrit/charan amrit. Gurbani doesnt talk about outer layer of amrit, but it talks inner amrit- which is naam amrit, atam ras(bhramgyan amrit).

Therer is only amrit which is naam amrit/ amrit ras- bhramgyan amrit--- khanda da amrit, charan amrit, kirpan amrit are all outer layer of that naam amrit.

All bhagats were mukht before sri guru nanak dev ji, stop your tat khalsa progaganda, dont you get tired of same lies lies and lies?

gauVI mhlw 5 ]

gourree mehalaa 5 ||

Gauree, Fifth Mehla:

iqsu gur kau ismrau swis swis ]

this gur ko simaro saas saas ||

I remember the Guru with each and every breath.

guru myry pRwx siqguru myrI rwis ]1] rhwau ]

gur maerae praan sathigur maeree raas ||1|| rehaao ||

The Guru is my breath of life, the True Guru is my wealth. ||1||Pause||

gur kw drsnu dyiK dyiK jIvw ]

gur kaa dharasan dhaekh dhaekh jeevaa ||

Beholding the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan, I live.

gur ky crx Doie Doie pIvw ]1]

gur kae charan dhhoe dhhoe peevaa ||1||

I wash the Guru's Feet, and drink in this water. ||1||

gur kI ryxu inq mjnu krau ]

gur kee raen nith majan karo ||

I take my daily bath in the dust of the Guru's Feet.

jnm jnm kI haumY mlu hrau ]2]

janam janam kee houmai mal haro ||2||

The egotistical filth of countless incarnations is washed off. ||2||

:nihungsmile: http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=739

If we apply your logic, then by same logic below is just as valid:

charan saaDh kay Dho-ay Dho-ay pee-o.

Wash the feet of the Holy, and drink in this water.

arap saaDh ka-o apnaa jee-o.

Dedicate your soul to the Holy.

[N30S1NGH]

Namstang, you have not written anything new and once again did not refute any of my points. Base your arguments on Gurbani and if you have to use sampardas then you need to go to them and ask for Gurmat reasoning. Just because they do it is not good enough these day. Practices in sampardas have changed over time but Gurbani has not. Unless your's or sampardas' reasons and beliefs are according to Gurbani and not on hindu philosophy I will accept it. I would also like to know what spiritual meanings you have to prove my interpretation wrong.

I suggest you read Krishna and Raam Chandra jeevan first. Raam left this world and cried in the battlefield. Krishna deceived and seduced his cousin and had illicit relations with Radha who wasn't married to him. Such person can never be in sachkhand. Unless there existed some other krishna who obtained naam from Satguru, I would say Sant Jagjit Singh is wrong. And don't every try to compare Guru Sahib to hindu avtars. It is very insulting. Sab Tay Vadda Satgur Nanak.

If there way already a way to reach sachkhand then there was no need to start Sikhi. Guru Sahib would've preached previous ways. But according to Hukam of Waheguru "Nanak Nirmal Panth Chalaeya..". I have already stated that Bhagats became Sikhs of Guru Nanak Sahib and had obtained Naam. Hence, there was no need to come back again.

If sant jagjit singh ji is wrong when he said krishan, raam was hari avtar of vahiguroo then by the same token- vaddie vaddaie mahapursh- sant jawala singh ji harkhowale, sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale, sant sunder singh ji bhindranwale in your humble opnion were wrong too ?? This beleive is just not made up by sant jagjit singh ji this is always been common beleif within samparda's.

Anyway, few questions to you: if you think sikhi is only way and sachkhand is only limited to amritdhari gursikhs:

1. When you read gurbani lot of times you hear about chatha paad- turiya avastha(spiritual orders in hinduism, and islam talks about this too but in form of valley, look below)? This turiya avastha that sri guru maharaj is talking about is that only invented by sri guru nanak dev ji when they took physical birth or always been there? [hope you research on this before you answer this one]

2. When you read gurbani lot of times there is mention regarding- Dasam Dwara being adobe of amrit, is this newly invented by sri guru nanak dev when they took physical birth? or always been there?

3. As you quoted from gurbani and share your opnion that - Satguru nanak dev ji as nirankari always been there before sikhi, before kalyug - from aad- then satyug, treta, dvapar, kalyug and blessed all the bhagats with gurmat naam and did kirpa,, key questions comes down

- did satguru nanak dev ji as nirankari jot came in satyug physically to the earth gave charan amrit-outer intiation to the bhagats from satyug, dvapar, treta, kalyug?

- if yes, which form satguru nanak dev ji came?

- if no, how did these bhagats coming from satug who had their guru's- got intiated, was it vision or deliverance(gurmat naam) these bhagats had from satguru nanak dev ji who didnt took physical sargun form yet until kalyug?

What do you have to say about Raja Janak who existed long time before Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Bhai Gurdas ji describes him as:

source: source: http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...=10&pauri=5

Gurmukh (person who have their face towards Guru). Raja Janak's Guru was Asthavakat- 8 year old disable child who may be disabled in the eyes of chamars(people who judge others by skin, appearance) but his atma was merged with nirankar as one roop.

By saying Satguru nanak dev ji is only and only true Guru out of all the guru's we had in all the yugs, one still has dvaish(partiality) which restricts one's mindset to accept other bhagats, bhramgyani also had in the past merge with that higher reality and became also nirankari jot. Having that kind of mindset is against Gurmat Advait Sidhant, open doors to - Sharia sikhi.

We were on the same token, only difference is you(as shared by rest tat khalsa) see satguru nanak dev ji holding supermacy of all the dharams which causes major dubta and division. You consider him to be standalone prophet only belongs to amrtidhari sikhs giving kirpa to everyone by making bhagats re born as singhs and taking amrit. I see (as shared by puratan samparda's) satguru nanak dev ji being ray(Avtar) coming from sun(nirgun paratma), krishan being ray(avtar) from nirgun paratma, ram being ray(Avtar) from nirgun paratma.

As gurbani talks- sooraj eko rot enek ||

Its one nirgun paratma, nirgun paratma to benefit human kind transcedents itself into avtars- hari avtar, narsing avtar, nit avtars, avnit avtars, aveshya avtars. From avtars came each dharam. How could you say other school of thought which focuses on naam simran (islam- they call it dhikr, hindus call it aum, christian call it god) is wrong which sri guru arjan dev ji himself said:

srb Drm mih sRyst Drmu ]

sarab dhharam mehi sraesatt dhharam ||

Of all religions, the best religion

hir ko nwmu jip inrml krmu ]

har ko naam jap niramal karam ||

is to chant the Name of the Lord and maintain pure conduct.

Here is you got sam drist updesh from sam drist karak guru arjan dev ji

Here is the glimpse in Islam level of spirituality..Muslim holy saints divide the whole ascent into seven valleys-

1. Valley of Search(Wadde-a-Tallash)

2. Valley of Love (Wadee-a-Ishaq)

3. Valley of Knowledge (Wadeea-Marfat)

4. Valley of meditation or Ibadat (Wadee-a-Mehveat)

5. Valley of Unity (Wadee-Wehdeeat)

6. Valley of Bliss (Wadee-a-Noor or Wadee-a-Hairam)

7. Valley of merger in God or Allah (Wadee-A-Finah-Fillah)

In Japuji Sahib five khands (Realms) have been described also on this subject. Those are 1. Dharam Khand (Realm of Righteousness) 2. Gian Khand (Realm Of Knowledge) 3. Saram Khand (Realm of Spiritual effort). 4. Karam Khand (Realm of Grace) 5. Sachkhand (realm of truth). Those valley or realms means samething its just they are name differently just like one god known as vahiguroo, allah, ishvar, ram and many countless names...!

its really an shame how tat khalsa hijack sikhi, brainwash youths and make sikhi into jevoh witness cult.

[Guest Akirtghan]

Sarb dharm manh sresat dharam

Naam japu nirmal karam....." -Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Aang

266

'Of all religions, the best religion is to practice

Naam (Name of God) and to do pious deeds (truthful

living).

srb Drm mih sRyst Drmu ]

sarab dhharam mehi sraesatt dhharam ||

Of all religions, the best religion

hir ko nwmu jip inrml krmu ]

har ko naam jap niramal karam ||

is to chant the Name of the Lord and maintain pure conduct.

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

D.I.Y tat theories, I hear there’s a sale on, pick and choose, pick and choose. :nihungsmile: buy one get one free

[Mehtab Singh]

If sant jagjit singh ji is wrong when he said krishan, raam was hari avtar of vahiguroo then by the same token- vaddie vaddaie mahapursh- sant jawala singh ji harkhowale, sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale, sant sunder singh ji bhindranwale in your humble opnion were wrong too ?? This beleive is just not made up by sant jagjit singh ji this is always been common beleif within samparda's.

Anyway, few questions to you: if you think sikhi is only way and sachkhand is only limited to amritdhari gursikhs:

1. When you read gurbani lot of times you hear about chatha paad- turiya avastha(spiritual orders in hinduism, and islam talks about this too but in form of valley, look below)? This turiya avastha that sri guru maharaj is talking about is that only invented by sri guru nanak dev ji when they took physical birth or always been there? [hope you research on this before you answer this one]

2. When you read gurbani lot of times there is mention regarding- Dasam Dwara being adobe of amrit, is this newly invented by sri guru nanak dev when they took physical birth? or always been there?

3. As you quoted from gurbani and share your opnion that - Satguru nanak dev ji as nirankari always been there before sikhi, before kalyug - from aad- then satyug, treta, dvapar, kalyug and blessed all the bhagats with gurmat naam and did kirpa,, key questions comes down

- did satguru nanak dev ji as nirankari jot came in satyug physically to the earth gave charan amrit-outer intiation to the bhagats from satyug, dvapar, treta, kalyug?

- if yes, which form satguru nanak dev ji came?

- if no, how did these bhagats coming from satug who had their guru's- got intiated, was it vision or deliverance(gurmat naam) these bhagats had from satguru nanak dev ji who didnt took physical sargun form yet until kalyug?

What do you have to say about Raja Janak who existed long time before Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Bhai Gurdas ji describes him as:

source: source: http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...=10&pauri=5

Gurmukh (person who have their face towards Guru). Raja Janak's Guru was Asthavakat- 8 year old disable child who may be disabled in the eyes of chamars(people who judge others by skin, appearance) but his atma was merged with nirankar as one roop.

By saying Satguru nanak dev ji is only and only true Guru out of all the guru's we had in all the yugs, one still has dvaish(partiality) which restricts one's mindset to accept other bhagats, bhramgyani also had in the past merge with that higher reality and became also nirankari jot. Having that kind of mindset is against Gurmat Advait Sidhant, open doors to - Sharia sikhi.

We were on the same token, only difference is you(as shared by rest tat khalsa) see satguru nanak dev ji holding supermacy of all the dharams which causes major dubta and division. You consider him to be standalone prophet only belongs to amrtidhari sikhs giving kirpa to everyone by making bhagats re born as singhs and taking amrit. I see (as shared by puratan samparda's) satguru nanak dev ji being ray(Avtar) coming from sun(nirgun paratma), krishan being ray(avtar) from nirgun paratma, ram being ray(Avtar) from nirgun paratma.

As gurbani talks- sooraj eko rot enek ||

Its one nirgun paratma, nirgun paratma to benefit human kind transcedents itself into avtars- hari avtar, narsing avtar, nit avtars, avnit avtars, aveshya avtars. From avtars came each dharam. How could you say other school of thought which focuses on naam simran (islam- they call it dhikr, hindus call it aum, christian call it god) is wrong which sri guru arjan dev ji himself said:

srb Drm mih sRyst Drmu ]

sarab dhharam mehi sraesatt dhharam ||

Of all religions, the best religion

hir ko nwmu jip inrml krmu ]

har ko naam jap niramal karam ||

is to chant the Name of the Lord and maintain pure conduct.

Here is you got sam drist updesh from sam drist karak guru arjan dev ji

Here is the glimpse in Islam level of spirituality..Muslim holy saints divide the whole ascent into seven valleys-

1. Valley of Search(Wadde-a-Tallash)

2. Valley of Love (Wadee-a-Ishaq)

3. Valley of Knowledge (Wadeea-Marfat)

4. Valley of meditation or Ibadat (Wadee-a-Mehveat)

5. Valley of Unity (Wadee-Wehdeeat)

6. Valley of Bliss (Wadee-a-Noor or Wadee-a-Hairam)

7. Valley of merger in God or Allah (Wadee-A-Finah-Fillah)

In Japuji Sahib five khands (Realms) have been described also on this subject. Those are 1. Dharam Khand (Realm of Righteousness) 2. Gian Khand (Realm Of Knowledge) 3. Saram Khand (Realm of Spiritual effort). 4. Karam Khand (Realm of Grace) 5. Sachkhand (realm of truth). Those valley or realms means samething its just they are name differently just like one god known as vahiguroo, allah, ishvar, ram and many countless names...!

its really an shame how tat khalsa hijack sikhi, brainwash youths and make sikhi into jevoh witness cult.

yaar tere gyaan da level bahut jyaada aa, meri motti khopdi nu gal samjh ni aundi... :nihungsmile:

Really knowledgeable posts from veer Namastang in this and couple of other threads lately...now I officially denote this forum as a learning place... :nihungsmile:

on 2nd thought, mai hunna kaun aa denote karn wala :wub: :D