Applying The Word "sh"

[Guest Guest]

I listened to Nitnem Paath from Sant Kartar Singh Ji Bhindranwale and i have never heard such correct and Shudh Paath before. As some one was saying before there are 2 schools of thought on this, so that explains alot.

[OhTwadi]

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[Singh132]

I am sure that Bhai Gurdas jee's Vaaran and all puratan Gurmukhi script do NOT have bindian in the feet. A lot of Gutkas have started placing them but the original does not. I have an electronic version of a puratan Jaap Saahib and if someone requests, maybe I could try to paste some pictures of it and show that there are no bindian at all.

Bindiaan were put in to simplify things in relatively recent times. In the present time, some people have started to put bindian under "Lulla" to differentiate the hard "L" sound vs. the soft for example "laal" means red but "laaL" means drool.

I respect the Taksals but I don't feel they have an monopoly on the shudh uchaaran. Puratan Vidvaans who gave santhiya used to put bindiaan in the feet. I can give examples of them. To suggest that the Gurmukhi language had no "sh" or "z" sound is absolutely ludicrous. We didn't invent words like "shabad" and "sher" and "Shah". This is how they have always been pronounced.

[AK-47]

lol

sometimes typing on this forum is like hitting your head against a brick wall!!

i$ repeat taksal is the BEST place to go,if you have questions or bits where you disagree ...ASK them!!!! If you are SERIOUS about your khoj and study then you obviously go to the place that specialises in the subject!! If after your research and study you decide you disagree then so be it,but at least you have tried to understand the different stances.

No offence but many of us regularly get the shabad'vaheguru' wrong, so as i said learn from somewhere at least, taksal being the preferential choice given their depth of experience and knowledge.

Congratulations on having sight of one puratan jaap sahib, again go and speak to the people that TEACH how to read the dasam guru granth sahib ji. they will have seen many many saroops of dasam granth sahib ji first hand and will be able to answer ur questions.the internet is not the stream of allknowledge, u actually have to make an effortt in the real world!

End of the day it doesnt seem like you will make the effort to speak to a fully trained ustad from either of the taksals ,thats your decision. End of the day the rest of the panth recognises and understands the taksals role in santhia and gurbani arth if one group doesn't, its no big deal.

Im not a santhia ustad and wouldnt be too confident in trying to answer any questions on a topic where i have such little knowldge. For those of you who are so confident in what your mind has decided,good for you, carry on.

If anyone wants taksals explanations on differnet shabads, then either contact the nearest santhia ustad and attend the class, dont worry you dont have to take amrit again or anything to learn (as someone one asked me ...), or if you cant a better place to ask would be the taksal websites run from america i think, some of the guys there have done a lot of study as well and also teach santhia, so they may be able to help you.

Dhan Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji who taught hundreds of kathavachaks, parcharkas and granthi singhs etc, if you look hard enouugh you can still find them around today and learn from them. Amazing gursikhs, who have spent their entire lives emersed in gurbani.

Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Takals, who to this day keep alive the santhia and katha as taught by maharajh himself.

Vaheguru. :nihungsmile:

[singh di fauj]

The way gurbani is read is important, and hopefully one day you will realise this.

However if you have the chance, please try and learn of a genuine ustad who has learnt from one of the taksals. His santhia will have the work of many mahapurshs and gursikhs behind it, not just the thought of one or two people.

dude where did I say that santhia is not important .. read my previous posts on this thread..

I have reaslised this long time back and took a few lessons though not from so called ustads as per u only taksalis can give santhia...

please understand that gurbani is in farsi, urdu and what not and those langauges can not be pronounced correctly without shhh zzz ...

[Singh132]

Brother "AK 47",

First, there's no reason to get upset. Secondly, how do you know how many puraatan Granths or gutkas I have seen? It might be possible that I'm speaking on some knowledge or research.

Finally, you haven't addressed any actual point that was made but have simply repeated over and over, "talk to taksal" and "taksal teaches santhiya as maharaj himself did".

In the end, we all should have bibek buddhi. When someone claims to be teaching 'shudh' uchaaran and santhiya, it doesn't seem right to accept that at face value. Everyone should do their research, ask the right questions and then decide what they feel is right.

I'm not really here to argue any further. If someone has some substantive question or point, I'm more than happy to address it. But if someone insists that taksal knows best , no questions asked and that's final, I'm happy to let them rest with that belief.

[Guest Guest]

I am sure that Bhai Gurdas jee's Vaaran and all puratan Gurmukhi script do NOT have bindian in the feet. A lot of Gutkas have started placing them but the original does not. I have an electronic version of a puratan Jaap Saahib and if someone requests, maybe I could try to paste some pictures of it and show that there are no bindian at all.

Bindiaan were put in to simplify things in relatively recent times. In the present time, some people have started to put bindian under "Lulla" to differentiate the hard "L" sound vs. the soft for example "laal" means red but "laaL" means drool.

I respect the Taksals but I don't feel they have an monopoly on the shudh uchaaran. Puratan Vidvaans who gave santhiya used to put bindiaan in the feet. I can give examples of them. To suggest that the Gurmukhi language had no "sh" or "z" sound is absolutely ludicrous. We didn't invent words like "shabad" and "sher" and "Shah". This is how they have always been pronounced.

Actually Punjabi speaking people don't use "z" those who do have been influenced by Urdu/Farsi langauge.

[Singh132]

Actually Punjabi speaking people don't use "z" those who do have been influenced by Urdu/Farsi langauge.

I specifically said Gurmukhi. Modern day Punjabi is an evolving language. You're right that we've gotten rid of words or are changing words that use akhars like "Ungha" and "Yainyan" and also the sound of "z". Old Gurmukhi language or even old Punjabi used these sounds. In Guru Sahib's time, I think it's clear it was used. Just take the example of the name "Sahibzada Zoravar Singh" . We still pronounce it with the "z" even though very few of us say "zor" as opposed to "jor".

Personally I find it too bad that our Punjabi is shifting towards Hindi and losing the Persian colours it had before. I find Pakistani Punjabi to be much more appealing for some reason.

[Guest Guest]

I specifically said Gurmukhi. Modern day Punjabi is an evolving language. You're right that we've gotten rid of words or are changing words that use akhars like "Ungha" and "Yainyan" and also the sound of "z". Old Gurmukhi language or even old Punjabi used these sounds. In Guru Sahib's time, I think it's clear it was used. Just take the example of the name "Sahibzada Zoravar Singh" . We still pronounce it with the "z" even though very few of us say "zor" as opposed to "jor".

Personally I find it too bad that our Punjabi is shifting towards Hindi and losing the Persian colours it had before. I find Pakistani Punjabi to be much more appealing for some reason.

Gurmukhi script is by far better than Shahmukhi (used in Pakistan Punjab) to write Punjabi. Since it has all the required letters. In Shahmukhi you have to join the "d" and "h" to get "dh" etc. Before Punjabi was written in Urdu/Hindi script until Guru Angad Dev Ji introduced Gurmukhi.

[curious_man]

correct pronunciation matters a lot. It helps u to concentrate more while reading. It helps u to memorize spelling... and so exact words of baani can come in ure mind. It helps u to create the right vibrations in air while reading aloud!!

eg: many people read "sehas sianpaa lakh hohe, taan ik na chalay naal"

the correct word is ... sassaa mukta - sa ; hahha mukta - ha ; sassaa mukta - sa = sahas

some say like sassa + dulaan = se

its easier to explain if i can write in gurmukhi