Gurudwara Discrimination Against Caste

[Jaipal2004]

WJKK WJKF

after finding a suitable Gurdwara (in the West Mids) for our Anand Karaj we approached them to book the date. We had the date granted and completed a form as per the Gurudwara's request.

On the front of the form it says that if you don't have Singh or Kaur in your name you should change this via deed poll before the wedding - we ignored this as we are both Sikh although my fiancee doesn't have Kaur in her name.

Since then - the booking secretary has said we cannot get married as they've had issues before with non-sikh people marrying sikh persons in the Gurdwara. At this point you should note that we are both Gursikhs - doing seva and going to the Gurdwara regularly. Whereas I have Singh as my last name she doesn't have Kaur. This is clear discrimination and in direct contradiction to SIkh beliefs.

I am scared that we are turning into fanatics like some Muslim factions when instead we should be proud that Sikhism is a religion that welcomes all and makes no distinction.

My fiancee is Ravidasia and I believe it is quite common for them not to use Kaur or Singh. From my understanding Singh and Kaur should only be used after you become Amritdhari anyway - surely if they want her to change her name then they should take back the names of those 'Sikhs' who are currently residing in prisons ??!! This is a side point and shouldn't detract from the underlying fact - we are two Sikhs who wish to marry in the Gurdwara.

Although we have a receipt to confirm the booking the secretary has said that they need to discuss this with the committee. I would've thought that if 2 Sikh people wanted to get married in a Guru Darbar then this should be allowed - why are they making distinctions?

If somebody can help our situation then please get in touch. We are based in tthe West Midlands and because we've booked the afternoon venue etc we are getting stress and frustrated because so called Gursikhs are causing us problems.

We believe we've done nothing wrong and am at a loss as to why and how they can do this?!

WJJK WJKF

[Gurbar Akaal]

Is this Soho Road Gurdwara? My friend had a similar problem with them too.

[JarnailS]

WJKK WJKF

after finding a suitable Gurdwara (in the West Mids) for our Anand Karaj we approached them to book the date. We had the date granted and completed a form as per the Gurudwara's request.

On the front of the form it says that if you don't have Singh or Kaur in your name you should change this via deed poll before the wedding - we ignored this as we are both Sikh although my fiancee doesn't have Kaur in her name.

Since then - the booking secretary has said we cannot get married as they've had issues before with non-sikh people marrying sikh persons in the Gurdwara. At this point you should note that we are both Gursikhs - doing seva and going to the Gurdwara regularly. Whereas I have Singh as my last name she doesn't have Kaur. This is clear discrimination and in direct contradiction to SIkh beliefs.

I am scared that we are turning into fanatics like some Muslim factions when instead we should be proud that Sikhism is a religion that welcomes all and makes no distinction.

My fiancee is Ravidasia and I believe it is quite common for them not to use Kaur or Singh. From my understanding Singh and Kaur should only be used after you become Amritdhari anyway - surely if they want her to change her name then they should take back the names of those 'Sikhs' who are currently residing in prisons ??!! This is a side point and shouldn't detract from the underlying fact - we are two Sikhs who wish to marry in the Gurdwara.

Although we have a receipt to confirm the booking the secretary has said that they need to discuss this with the committee. I would've thought that if 2 Sikh people wanted to get married in a Guru Darbar then this should be allowed - why are they making distinctions?

If somebody can help our situation then please get in touch. We are based in tthe West Midlands and because we've booked the afternoon venue etc we are getting stress and frustrated because so called Gursikhs are causing us problems.

We believe we've done nothing wrong and am at a loss as to why and how they can do this?!

WJJK WJKF

wjkk wjkf

brother, you are not even sure who are you? a sikh or a what?

on one hand you are talking the very basic concepts of sikhism that it should welcome every one regardless who they are, and on the other hand you are calling your self a sikh and yet not ready to accept the very basic principles of the religion.

our guru ji and millions of other sikhs have given all their lifes, family and everything, simply because people like us can use "Singh" or "Kaur" as their surnames and feel proud while using this.

think about it, shri guru gobind singh was shri guru gobind rai (before 13apr1699), when he felt the need to have "Singh" in his name, why do we run away from this beautiful gift? why do we feel shame if someone calls us Mr Singh or Ms Kaur in the crowd of thousands? why do we feel so pround using mr gill, mr bains, mr sahota, mr bansi etc etc. (no offence to any one)?? JUST THINK ABOUT IT....!!!!

i personally feel that any one should be allowed to gurughar and have anad karaj, but the on the other hand i think whats the point of coming to guru ji when we are not going to do what he says.

now a days, this is the way we think:

we can cover the entire gurughar with gold, put dimonds on the paakli, shower flower where our guru stays, use expensives perfumes in gurudarbar..... BUT do we actually follow our true guru's order??? do we do what our father asks us to do?

bhul chuk maaf karni

wjkk wjkf

[rupinder singh]

Adding Singh or Kaur into a name is one easy exercise. Anyone can change their name by deedpoll in a matter of days. How someone simply changing their name will promote Sikh values is beyond me. I don’t get the benefit of the Gurdwara committee asking you to do this as a pose to say keeping your kes, giving up alcohol and meat and taking amrit, carrying out x number of japji sahibs a day. Wouldn’t it be better for them to have asked you to commit to something a bit more practical for your Sikhi jeevan

If this Gurdwara committee really wants to make a stand then why not go the full hog instead of creating a pretty silly rule about keeping singh or kaur in your name. Anyway, if you both have true sharda then Guru Maharaj will ensure your Anand Karaj is carried out. Ask Guru Ji for guidance, not people like us. Sometimes positive things come out of negative incidents.

[Jaipal2004]

Hi,

I am Sikh but fail to see how adding Kaur or Singh makes me or in this case my fiancee more of a Sikh?

You are right - Guru Ji took on Singh after becoming baptised. By her not having Kaur are you saying she is lacking faith? No - that was her given name.

The point is not that she doesn't want Kaur - it is that the Gurdwara committee think by adding Kaur she is a 'certified Sikh' and therefore there willbe no issues.

By this logic - do you hand back the name Singh/Kaur if you've done something bad?

And - Singh should be used in it's true meaning - to drop the partitions/seperations etc. and to create a brotherhood. But that's another thread in itself.

Bhaji - it's not Soho road - as a regular visitor to this Gurdwara I know that they are very strict on Rehat-Maryada but I have never known them to discriminate against anybody and I have been going there for the last 20 years and do seva there regularly.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[B4ND4]

If you think using Kaur/Singh isn't a big deal then i would suggest doing anand karaj in a Gurughar isn't a big deal either. You can always go for court marriage, I am sure they wont discriminate.

As you said adding Kaur/Singh doesn't make one a Sikh. I am happy that you think like me. I feel getting married in a GuruGhar doesn't make us a sikh beacuse we fail to adhere to the teachings of Guru Ji. You can always get married where there is no 'discrimination'. Venues can be changed :s .

Get married and be happy : )

Rabb Rakha!!

[Jaipal2004]

I am not saying that using Kaur/Singh isn't a big deal - just feel like the Gurdwara are judging us by our names rather than our deeds or even misdeeds?

I am not an amritdhari Sikh but even so my faith is important to me and marriage outside of a Gurdwara would feel like I've not been blessed or even 'given the ok' by Waheguru.

I want us to be happy but not at the expense of leaving out something as big and important as an Anand Karaj?

If you think using Kaur/Singh isn't a big deal then i would suggest doing anand karaj in a Gurughar isn't a big deal either. You can always go for court marriage, I am sure they wont discriminate.

As you said adding Kaur/Singh doesn't make one a Sikh. I am happy that you think like me. I feel getting married in a GuruGhar doesn't make us a sikh beacuse we fail to adhere to the teachings of Guru Ji. You can always get married where there is no 'discrimination'. Venues can be changed :s .

Get married and be happy : )

[B4ND4]

Thn get her name chged to Kaur bro. Big deal?? I don't think so...

[JarnailS]

Hi,

I am Sikh but fail to see how adding Kaur or Singh makes me or in this case my fiancee more of a Sikh?

You are right - Guru Ji took on Singh after becoming baptised. By her not having Kaur are you saying she is lacking faith? No - that was her given name.

The point is not that she doesn't want Kaur - it is that the Gurdwara committee think by adding Kaur she is a 'certified Sikh' and therefore there willbe no issues.

By this logic - do you hand back the name Singh/Kaur if you've done something bad?

And - Singh should be used in it's true meaning - to drop the partitions/seperations etc. and to create a brotherhood. But that's another thread in itself.

Bhaji - it's not Soho road - as a regular visitor to this Gurdwara I know that they are very strict on Rehat-Maryada but I have never known them to discriminate against anybody and I have been going there for the last 20 years and do seva there regularly.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

wjkk wjkf

true said, adding singh or kaur word to your name would not make any difference, but how can you not follow the words of your guru ji and yet want to call your self a "sikh"?

sikh: literally the word Sikh means a student or learner

we call our self students, but whats is the point of going to school when we are not listening to our teachers?

so, you are saying that your fiance is not lacking in sikhi by not using the "kaur", but think about it, is she promoting sikhi by not using the "kaur" word? singh or kaur words are only given to jatts or tarkhaan.... arent ravidasiye also sikhs? who is stopping them from not using singh or kaur word? when shri guru gobind singh ji asked for heads, did he said that i only need head from jatts or tarkhans, and no ravidasiya should stand up?????

its us lot who devided our community into different parts. its us lot who feel more proud in using gill, bal, sahota etc. as our surname? and then we blame our gurughar and committee if they ask us to use the surname as what our guru ji has told us.....!!!! how would we justify this?

surely, adding singh or kaur in your name would not stop you from doing the bad things.... bhai maha singh ji gave "badawaa" to shri guru gobind singh ji. he also had singh in his name. but yes, what made him come back into the battle and fight like a true lion, was that he realised the importance of "singh" and "guru ka sikh".

bhul chuk maaf karni veer ji.

wjkk wjkf

[rupinder singh]

I fail to see the real benefit of commiting people to the kaur/singh post-fixes within their names if there is no advise to encourage that person to take on a Gursikh lifestyle. Without the reni beni the Singh/Kaur name is just a word added to a name. Would you consider someone like Narinder Kaur of Big Brother fame an example of a Sikh because she keeps Kaur in her name? Or the many Singhs who have the wonderful post fix in their name, yet down a bottle of whiskey every night?