Vichaar On This Shabad

[sikha]

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh.

I was reading a shabad and got my eyes stuck on something that confused me.

The shabad talks about the 4 yugas and in the verses on Satyuga it mentions Gurmukhs, and the verses later on Dwaapar Yuga it mentions the Satguru.

ਗੁਣ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਸੋਭਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਈ ॥

Guṇ gi­ān paḏārath har har kirṯārath sobẖā gurmukẖ ho­ī.

Their wealth was the spiritual wisdom of the Lord's Glorious Virtues; the Lord was their success, and to live as Gurmukh was their glory.

And later on:

ਜੁਗੁ ਦੁਆਪੁਰੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਰਮਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥

जुगु दुआपुरु आइआ भरमि भरमाइआ हरि गोपी कान्हु उपाइ जीउ ॥

Jug ḏu­āpur ā­i­ā bẖaram bẖarmā­i­ā har gopī kānĥ upā­ė jī­o.

The Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga came, and people wandered in doubt. The Lord created the Gopis and Krishna.

ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਧੁ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਲੁ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥

दीन दइआलि गुरु साधु मिलाइआ मिलि सतिगुर मलु लहि जाइ जीउ ॥

Ḏīn ḏa­i­āl gur sāḏẖ milā­i­ā mil saṯgur mal leh jā­ė jī­o.

The Lord, Compassionate to the poor, led them to meet the Holy Guru. Meeting the True Guru, their filth is washed away.

Ang 445

How were people Gurmukhs in Satyuga, and was Krishna the Satguru of Dwapar Yuga, whereas Guru Nanak is the Guru of Kalyug?

[Singhstah]

Guroo Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj is the ETERNAL Satguroo, I know you didn't mean it, but it a hugeee no go to call anyone else Satguroo. IK JOT from all ages which passed through the vessels of Dhan Dhan Sri Guroo Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj, which finally came back to the eternal form of Dhan Dhan Sri Guroo Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

Krishna ji was just an AVTAR, with faults, which is lower than the perfect Satguroo which is Vaheguroo himself.

see gurbani below, especially bold

ਤੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੇ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ॥

Ŧū saṯgur cẖahu jugī āp āpė parmėsar.

You are the True Guru, throughout the four ages; You Yourself are the Transcendent Lord.

ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਸਿਖ ਸੇਵੰਤ ਧੁਰਹ ਧੁਰੁ ॥

Sur nar sāḏẖik siḏẖ sikẖ sėvanṯ ḏẖurah ḏẖur.

The angelic beings, seekers, Siddhas and Sikhs have served You, since the very beginning of time.

ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਲੋਅਹ ॥

Āḏ jugāḏ anāḏ kalā ḏẖārī ṯarihu lo­ah.

You are the Primal Lord God, from the very beginning, and throughout the ages; Your Power supports the three worlds.

also in sukhmani sahib, "Jugaad Gure Nameh"

Now on the shabad, daas would think that the shabad says that krishna was sent as avtar, but the very fortunate individuals of that age were helped by Satguroo himself (in his nirgun form) as Vaheguroo led them to him out of mercy, otherwise following krishna, they would be doing good, but still be stuck on one level.

I may be wrong on this interpretation, hopefully someone with more gyan can share.

*enter sanatani opposition* LOL

bhull chukk maaf

VahegurooJiKaKhalsaVahegurooJiKiFateh

[sikha]

Thank you very much for your input veerji.

Is'nt Vaheguru the Nirgun form of Guru Nanak? The shabad talks about Vaheguru leeding them to the Guru so does it mean Guru Nanak was already manifested in Dwapar Yuga?

You mention the Ik jot which passed through Guru Nanak down to Guru Granth Sahib.. Was this jot manifested in any other form prior to 1469?

[Bijla Singh]

Is'nt Vaheguru the Nirgun form of Guru Nanak?

Yes. Waheguru is Nirgun. In Sargun form He is Shabad saroop Jot Nanak.

The shabad talks about Vaheguru leeding them to the Guru so does it mean Guru Nanak was already manifested in Dwapar Yuga?

Satguru is always alive as "Satgur Mera Sada Sada" and He never comes and goes. Also, Satguru is One, always has been and always will be because only One is He who doesn't take birth and dies.

You mention the Ik jot which passed through Guru Nanak down to Guru Granth Sahib.. Was this jot manifested in any other form prior to 1469?

The Jot took Sargun form only in 1469. Prior to that according to Gurbani Satguru gave Naam in nirgun form and did kirpa on selected Bhagats. You or other may not agree but Bhatt Bani is clear on this topic.

Krishna cannot be a Satguru because he took birth and died. Although he had powers of Waheguru but he wasn't Waheguru himself. His doings greatly distinguish him from Guru Sahib. Guru Sahib rejects Krishna in Gurbani and if Guru Sahib was Krishna then it makes no sense Guru Sahib rejecting himself. Only Guru Sahib, Pooran Jagat Guru, was Himself "Aap Narayan" and "Govind Roop". There is a big difference between a messenger or prophet of God and God Himself. Prophets and Avtars were slaves of Waheguru and had some of His powers but Guru Sahib was His roop in Sargun form and there is no difference between Guru and Waheguru. Also, only Guru Sahib preached the Nirgun worship. Prior to that sargun form of worship (idols, raam, krishna, gods, goddesses etc) was popular and the way considered to reach God.

The Shabad clearly states that only meeting the Guru (true Guru) one can get muktee. Satyug etc are used metaphorically here. Even if we assume Satyug and other yugs existed in real the fact still stands that Sikhi is the Dharam of Kalyug and only Guru Sahib, the Satguru of Kalyug, can give muktee. Reading meanings by Sahib Singh, Bhai Veer Singh and others might help you understand better.

[sikha]

Thank you very much BIjla Singh ji.

You say that Krishna was born and he can't therefore be the Sargun Satguru form of Waheguru but does'nt Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj also say that he was born into this world in Bachitar Natak:

ਇਹ ਕਾਰਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੋਹਿ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਬ ਮੈ ਜਗਤ ਜਨਮ ਧਰਿ ਆਯੋ ॥

Ih karan(i) Prabh moh(i) pathaayo|| Tab mai jagat janam dhar(i) aayo||

For this reason the Lord sent me and I was born in this world.

[sikha]

Gurbani talks about each Yug having its own Dharam, so who brought the Dharam to the earlier Yugas? Guru Nanak brought the Dharam to this Yuga, but what about the other yugas?

[SunSingh]

People were Gurmukh in previous yugs by obeying the avtar of that yug.

It was the avtar of that Yug who protected and promoted dharm.

[N30S1NGH]

sikha veer, since you already read first side of story,, you may want to read second side of story on http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=31317

, http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=29923 ..wise people say usually there are three sides of story in discussions and debates..first is your side based on khoj and avastha, second is my side based on khoj and avastha and third is not a khoj but its parchand gyan and satya/sat..only puran guru sahiban..shabad guru and puran bhramgyanis atamgyanis can show you third side via vahiguroo blessing.

[Bijla Singh]

Gurbani talks about each Yug having its own Dharam, so who brought the Dharam to the earlier Yugas? Guru Nanak brought the Dharam to this Yuga, but what about the other yugas?

Earlier dharams were brought by avtars, messengers, prophets and ordinary men (Islam by Mohammad, Buddhism by Buddha etc.) but all of them failed. Vaars, Gurbani and Dasam Bani make this very clear. Truth doesn't change over time. So a true religion in Dwapar or Treta must be valid in Kalyug as well. Starting Gurmat Panth is the proof itself that other religions had their shortcomings. Guru Nanak Sahib brought the pure truth because He is Akal Purakh Himself. When Akal Purakh saw that no one had done the job correctly, He came in Sargun saroop (Jot or Shabad). Earlier dharams could not deliver Naam and reform the societies to a level of equality and justice. Krishna and Rama engaged in idol worship and kept the caste system alive. Rama himself practiced caste system when he shaved his head and became student of Brahmins. He worshipped idols and killed a Shudra for doing bhagtee. Mohammad practiced slavery and kept many sex slaves. Buddha considered life to be the cause of suffering. Each and every avtar had his shortcomings but Guru Sahib is the Pooran. Previously, those who became mukat were given Naam by Guru Sahib (Akal Purakh Himself). This happened rarely but in kaulyug, the truth was revealed and as Bhai Gurdas Ji says:

chahu jugaa kaa hun nibaerraa nar manukhaa no eaek nidhhaanaa ||

Now, this is the essence of the teachings of the four ages: for the human race, the Name of the One Lord is the greatest treasure.

All other religions do not give human the opportunity to become one with the founder of the faith let alone being one with God. Guru Sahib eliminated this hierarchical system and revealed the fact that we all are one. He gave His roop to His disciples and taught the way to merge back with Waheguru “Joti Jot Ralee..”. Guru Sahib preached “Satnam” and others did not. This is why Sikhi is the only way to get muktee because Naam does not exist in other religions. Other names of God are “kirtam naam” i.e. not revealed by Waheguru. Only Gurmantra is the true Naam of Anaami Waheguru. Other names will give benefit and help the devotee but will not get anyone muktee.

You say that Krishna was born and he can't therefore be the Sargun Satguru form of Waheguru but does'nt Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj also say that he was born into this world in Bachitar Natak:

ਇਹ ਕਾਰਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੋਹਿ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਬ ਮੈ ਜਗਤ ਜਨਮ ਧਰਿ ਆਯੋ ॥

Ih karan(i) Prabh moh(i) pathaayo|| Tab mai jagat janam dhar(i) aayo||

For this reason the Lord sent me and I was born in this world.

Satguru is only One and does not take birth or die. This criterion must be met. Krishna was born and then died. Gurbani doesn’t revere him as he did questionable immoral activities. Satguru is not a human body but Shabad saroop of Waheguru. Body was never Satguru not even from 1469-1708. Bhai Gurdas Ji calls Guru Nanak Sahib “Pathaeya” which means He appeared in the world like light appears in the darkness. Guru Sahib, in Dasam Bani, says that He came (referring to the body). It wasn’t as if there was Jot Nanak (Satguru) in this world and then Akal Purakh was preparing another Satguru to be sent into the world. NO. Guru Gobind Singh Ji became Guru when Jot Nanak entered the body and even then it was the Jot that was the Guru which now resides in Shabad. Body was born not Satguru or Shabad Guru. Shabad Guru was already here before Gobind Rai took birth. Guru Nanak Sahib came as a Satguru. He has been Satguru since Aad. The line you quoted deserves some attention by you and others. I quote few lines above it:

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ ॥੨੭॥

Sabh te apnaa naam(u) japaayo|| Sat(i) naam kaahoon na dri?aayo||27||

Guru Sahib says that every prophet preached their own matt and own names. No one preached Satnam, only Guru Sahib did.

ਸਭ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥

Sabh apniapniurjhaanaa|| Paarbhaanaa kaahoo na pachhaanaa||

No one recognized the true Lord. Everyone lost themselves in their own interests. Some lines later Guru Sahib says:

ਜਾਹਿ ਤਹਾਂ ਤੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਚਲਾਇ ॥ ਕਬੁਧਿ ਕਰਨ ਤੇ ਲੋਕ ਹਟਾਇ ॥੨੯॥

Jaah(i) tahaan tai dharam(u) chalaae|| Kabudh(i) karan te lok hataae||29||

Waheguru commanded to spread the truth and teach people to stop doing evil actions. Now if other religions were teaching the truth then why were people lost in “darkness” and why didn’t Guru Sahib preach other religions? Instead, He spread truth which He called Sikhi or Gurmat. Sikhi is revealed by Waheguru. Had Naam existed in other religions, Sikhi wouldn’t have been revealed to begin with. This is the khoj done by scholars of the Sikh panth. You should read the links posted by Namstang and also read meanings of Gurbani done by different scholars. Guru Rakha

[sikha]

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh veerji.

Gurbani is a testimony to the fact that each Yuga has its own Dharam.. The Truth(seed) remains the same, however its manifestation(plant) changes over time into different religions.

Page 797, Line 18

ਜਤੁ ਸੰਜਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਓਨਾ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੨॥

जतु संजम तीरथ ओना जुगा का धरमु है कलि महि कीरति हरि नामा ॥२॥

Jaṯ sanjam ṯirath onā jugā kā ḏẖaram hai kal meh kīraṯ har nāmā. ||2||

Celibacy, self-discipline and pilgrimages were the essence of Dharma in those past ages; but in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Praise of the Lord's Name is the essence of Dharma. ||2||

Page 797, Line 19

ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਧਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥

जुगि जुगि आपो आपणा धरमु है सोधि देखहु बेद पुराना ॥

Jug jug āpo āpṇā ḏẖaram hai soḏẖ ḏėkẖhu bėḏ purānā.

Each and every age has its own essence of Dharma; study the Vedas and the Puraanas, and see this as true.

I have no doubt that Guru Nanak is the only liberator of charasi lakh joon im Kalyug, im mostly interested in knowing how people attained mukhti in the previous ages as we can see there has been Gurmukhs in all yugas. If Akaal Purakh did not give naam to the various avatars, prophets of the past, how could Akaal Purakh expect them to be leading others to Him? God is not a just God if he does not give proper Guidance to all men of history. Mankind has been here for thousand of years, and of course they must have recieved some sort of effective guidance by God.

But are you saying that it was Akaal Purakh who gave these men of the past mukhti? How did they know how to attain mukhti if they were not told how to attain mukhti by Akaal Purakh?

Krishna is given lot of respect in Gurbani, he could'n have been that bad.

how would you translate these as thet do say "Satgur vasudev", "Satgur Hari Krishan" etc.

ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|

In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

Line 1

ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|

The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

Line 2

ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।

taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|

In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

Line 3

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ।

kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|

In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.