Panjabradio Entertains Anti Dasam Granth Person.

[Inder Singh]

Notion of "healthy debates" only holds valid for discussions that are done in a positive spirit, and not for questioning the foundations of a faith. It has been proven beyond doubt that everyone who had criticised Dasam Bani, from Bhag Singh Ambala, to Kala Afghana, to Darshan Ragi had finally crossed their limits. Hence panth had to take actions against them by issuing Hukamnames.

Like we cant debate our paternity, we cant debate our religious scriptures...

I agree.These people like Gulshan have not seen the gates of institutes of higher learning.So their intellect has limitation.They do not have the ability to understand metaphors,myths,symbolism used extensively in Dasam Granth.They go for literal meanings and then create nonsense and expose their inadequacies.

Dasam Granth is one of the greatest pieces of sikh scriptural literature penned by tenth master.The more we understand it more strong khalsa panth will be.

[ghorandhar]

Veer Punjab heritage jee, your sources say the following:

'The Damdami Taksal chief had alleged that except Giani Maan Singh, the other two priests had never served in any SGPC-run gurdwara.

He had also alleged that Giani Jaspal Singh was instrumental in the allowing baptised Sikh women to be part of “Panj Pyaras” (five beloved ones) who administered “Amrit” in “violation” of the established “maryada”.'

The first point ive already made. The second point does not contradict the panthic Sikh rehit maryada. Further I could not find any points where Gurbax Singh has questioned the panthic Sikh rehit rehit maryada or the Dasam granth in his book or in your sources. Ive read his book and he does not question the panthic Sikh rehit maryada, once again I suggest you read the book instead of relying on other peoples research. I dont know what Gurbax Singhs views on the whole dasam granth are, however its clear from his book that he does not question the banis which you claim he does.

Veer Inder Singh jee what are you on about? The interview has not even taken place, yeah right im changing the topic :D the topic you have started is one day to early. In the first post by punjab heritage and links provided the following arguments have been made: nitnem bania, Amrit sanchar bania and rehraas sahib are questioned (this point was made in Punjab heritage's last post). All these issues are claimed to be written in the book darpan Sikh rehit maryada. However, I find it odd that Giani Gurbax Singh Gulshan does not even question any of these. Ive given the page numbers, so you guys can read up. So how am I changing the topic? Read the frist post and the links provided and you wont be confused. HAve you read the book?

Veer Inder Singh can you provide us with some evidence that Gurbax Singh Gulshan does not understand the methaphors of the dasam granth, as you are sure his intellect is limited, I would like to see how you came up to this conclusion. Thanks.

Veer Babbar Khalistani jee, I agree to a certain extent with you, however whatever the hukam of the Akal Takhat is parvan in my eyes. On the other hand look what happens when we do have debates as in this discussion, you've got people making comments about other people without even reading their books and then claiming the writer of the books has limited intellect :lol: . If there is going to be debate we first need to be able to sit together without shouting personal attacks and then we should read all the sources before we start a debate.

[Inder Singh]

Veer Punjab heritage jee, your sources say the following:

'The Damdami Taksal chief had alleged that except Giani Maan Singh, the other two priests had never served in any SGPC-run gurdwara.

He had also alleged that Giani Jaspal Singh was instrumental in the allowing baptised Sikh women to be part of "Panj Pyaras" (five beloved ones) who administered "Amrit" in "violation" of the established "maryada".'

The first point ive already made. The second point does not contradict the panthic Sikh rehit maryada. Further I could not find any points where Gurbax Singh has questioned the panthic Sikh rehit rehit maryada or the Dasam granth in his book or in your sources. Ive read his book and he does not question the panthic Sikh rehit maryada, once again I suggest you read the book instead of relying on other peoples research. I dont know what Gurbax Singhs views on the whole dasam granth are, however its clear from his book that he does not question the banis which you claim he does.

Veer Inder Singh jee what are you on about? The interview has not even taken place, yeah right im changing the topic :D the topic you have started is one day to early. In the first post by punjab heritage and links provided the following arguments have been made: nitnem bania, Amrit sanchar bania and rehraas sahib are questioned (this point was made in Punjab heritage's last post). All these issues are claimed to be written in the book darpan Sikh rehit maryada. However, I find it odd that Giani Gurbax Singh Gulshan does not even question any of these. Ive given the page numbers, so you guys can read up. So how am I changing the topic? Read the frist post and the links provided and you wont be confused. HAve you read the book?

Veer Inder Singh can you provide us with some evidence that Gurbax Singh Gulshan does not understand the methaphors of the dasam granth, as you are sure his intellect is limited, I would like to see how you came up to this conclusion. Thanks.

Veer Babbar Khalistani jee, I agree to a certain extent with you, however whatever the hukam of the Akal Takhat is parvan in my eyes. On the other hand look what happens when we do have debates as in this discussion, you've got people making comments about other people without even reading their books and then claiming the writer of the books has limited intellect :lol: . If there is going to be debate we first need to be able to sit together without shouting personal attacks and then we should read all the sources before we start a debate.

Ghorandhar ji

It is a known fact that Jagtar jachak and Gulshan are anti Dasam Granth.I have a question for you.

One of the qualifications to be considered for appointment as head Granthi of Harmandir sahib is to have belief and knowledge of Dasam Granth.If Gulashan does not believe in Dasam granth why he wants to take that post?Any logic for that.

The point is that he is not truthful but a rogue character unbecoming a khalsa.He is a meek,crook and a liar.

[Inder Singh]

<<<<Veer Inder Singh can you provide us with some evidence that Gurbax Singh Gulshan does not understand the methaphors of the dasam granth, as you are sure his intellect is limited, I would like to see how you came up to this conclusion. Thanks.>>>

Response

Veer ji

An example,there is a myth of creation of the world in Bachitra natak wherein guru ji menntions about Madhu and kiteb,the demons.They take it as reality.They need to understand myth is not reality.Similar myths of creation are there in other religions also.

Guru ji has used metaphors such as saki(reference to waheguru) and piala(that is piala of Naam) in Hikayats.these stupids take it literal.They need to understand that similar metaphors are there in Bhai Gurdas ji di vaar 11.I can go on but will stop.

The proof of their hollowness is that they will neve r engage in any meaningful discussion like Darshan singh

[ghorandhar]

This is not about jachak, you are just changing the topic and You have provided no proof. I dont know what his views on Dasam granth are, from reading his book ive not found the answer, you have come to a conclusion about him and have called him 'a crook, a liar', 'limited intellect' on the dasam granth, where is the evidence? please share it with us. Personally I will not make such statements about people when Ive not heard it from their mouths and ive not heard him make such comments. If he does make them in 2Nights show then fair enough, but until then, will you provide us with any referances?

What has Prof Darshab Singh got to do with this discussion. You were talking about Gurbax Singh Gulshan have limited intellect on the dasam granth. Im simply asking for some audio or written evidence. why come online and bad mouth other people without providing proof. If Gurbax Singh speaks against Dasam granth on the radio he is wrong, however for you to make assumptions on his views is just disgusting.

[GSMANN]

The key point is that various sources point out the Giani has an anti Dasam Granth agenda.

You can believe these sources or you can choose to ignore to them but there seems to be more

than one pointing to the same conclusion.

Read my first post where i clearly state that after last weeks Hukum regarding Dasam Granth another

person is weighing in and trying to flex their muscle.

I am saying that there should not be a debate not based on what the Akal Takht has requested but because there is nothing to debate.

Read this fine article below:

Dasam Granth-There is no debate. The magazine approach to Guru Gobind Singh’s writings dissected.

There has been considerable debate lately regarding the writings and poetry of Guru Gobind Singh. There has never been such a debate since the compilation of writings now termed the Sri Dasam Granth. We need to ask ourselves if something has changed for people to doubt Sri Dasam Granth. Has there been a revelation in which scholars now find that Guru Gobind Singh did not write the material found in the Granth. This is theme of this article.

Scholars have a duty to look at different sides of an argument and to present this information clearly to the reader. There have been many articles appearing in various Sikh books and magazine/journals taking a journalistic approach to the Sri Dasam Granth.

Sikhs seem to fear Hindu concepts and ideas. Indeed there has been a change in the minds of the Sikhs since partition and most notably since 1984. Terms are banded about like the “Brahmical Octopus” and people who appear to have anti-Sikh sentiments are labelled as agents of RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh). The RSS has been pivotal in dividing Sikh scholars in terms of authenticity of the Sri Dasam Granth. However this problem has become so widespread that some people have written about and denounced the Bani’s of Guru Gobind Singh used in the Baptismal process. My question is what next?

The Akal Takht has used its supreme powers to summon anybody who is in contempt of the Sikh Rehat Maryada. Lately there has been a case where one writer of Sikhism (Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana) has refused to come to the Akal Takht, when summoned he has cited grounds of ill health. To send a replacement is even more futile (Gurtej Singh). This is what is happening, as not are only some scholars in contempt of the Sikh Rehat Maryada but then a farce is made of over how the proceeding should take place. I am not levelling blame on the Akal Takhat but certain issues need to be resolved quickly as otherwise they fester and take a life of their own. Debates on the Sri Dasam Granth are unfounded as the Granth is ingrained into the psyche of Sikhism. The problem lies in the fact that many Sikhs are not aware of the role the Sri Dasam Granth plays in Khalsa. The Guru most majestically did not include his Bani into the Guru Granth Sahib although he could have done so. However a Granth compiled several years after the Gurus merging with the almighty was the culmination of the spirit of the Guru. Only Guru Gobind Singh could speak about his role on this earth (Bachitra Natak), an autobiographical description of his battles and his place amongst the other Gurus. Only Guru Gobind Singh could talk about the different names and attributes of God (Jaap Sahib and Akal Ustat). The Sri Dasam Granth is a far more superior text than people give credit for and its place in Indian history cannot be allowed to be marginalised. The early Guru’s could include the words from the Bhagats who were from different creeds and castes. Why cannot reinterpreted Hindu myths be included into the Sri Dasam Granth? People fail to take into account the context of Guru Gobind’s Singh’s wrtings. Imagine the Guru’s durbar where there are many people present but to bring home the message of having a valiant and fighting spirit the Guru recites the battles of the Goddess Chandi. The Guru has a two-fold argument not only he is bringing this tale into context but he is securing the Sikhs mind by stating that there is not only a physical battle in life but a mental one as well. There are all sorts of demons in the cosmos and they can appear in all sorts of forms. The writings of the Guru need to be understood fully and a literal translation does not do any justice to the Guru. Metaphors, similes are the order of the day with Guru Gobind Singh. Even Professors of Sikhism have made mistakes by trying to dissect the writings and prove them to be of a Brahminical nature.

So are these scholars of Sikhism wrong?

It seems very peculiar that since the late 1700’s the Sri Dasam Granth has been seen as the equal of the Guru Granth Sahib but now overnight the Granth is the work of Brahmins and not of the Guru. Endless accounts can be found from 1700 onwards that the Sri Dasam Granth is the work of Guru Gobind Singh. The name of the Granth may have changed but the contents have largely remained the same. Every battle description of Guru Gobind Singh has been taken from Bachitra Natak. In the period of the Misl’s Gurmattas were taken with both Granths lying side by side. This process has not changed with certain Gurudwaras including two of the Sikh Takhts housing the Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth. Patna Sahib and Hazoor Sahib view the Sri Dasam Granth as a Holy Scripture and Hukumnamas are taken from the Granth. According to certain writers and scholars these practices and accounts of the Guru must be incorrect.

Another approach by Scholars has been to dissect the Granth by quoting only from the Charitropakhyan and hence proving that the Sri Dasam Granth is a pornographic manual. Once again context has been neglected and these cautionary tales would have been recited in the Guru’s durbar to show the effects of bad human behaviour. The Chaupai part of the Nitnem Banis is taken from the last Charitra. This on its own does not prove that it is work of the Guru. However early manuscript copies of the Sri Dasam Granth contain this work as well as it being available independently in Gutka and Pothi form. The only debate that has occurred in the past was whether the Charitropakhyan should be bound with the rest of the Granth. This authenticity question has only sprung up recently.

What is the debate?

There is no debate moreover the role of the Sri Dasam Granth has been marginalised over the years. The more people are unaware of the Granth the more uncertainty seems to grip peoples imagination. However the problem is that people are not aware of the Guru’s Bani. People read Guru Gobind Singh’s Bani day in day out whilst reciting prayers from the Nitnem. The Sikh Rehat Maryada gives approval of reciting Guru Gobind Singh shabads in Gurudwaras, (Together with Bhai Gurdas Vars). Kirtan from the Sri Dasam Granth can be heard on a regular basis at Harimandir Sahib. Endless amounts of CD’s are produced in the market promoting the Guru’s Bani. The Katha of the Dasam Granth is widely available. Baba Deep Singh authored one of the original Birs of the Dasam Granth. The Damdami Taksal who takes their lineage from this mighty warrior venerates the Dasam Granth as a Guru. Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale also from Damdami Taksal was fully versed in the Sri Dasam Granth. To this day his Katha of the Sri Dasam Granth is sought after. The Akali Nihangs do not have a debate on the Granth as they not only see the Sri Dasam Granth as scripture but the Sarbloh Granth as well. The Nihangs have many practices and rituals which come from the Sri Dasam Granth and also the fighting spirit as enshrined in Shastarvidyia is based on Jaap Sahib, Krishna Avatar, Shastar Nam Mala and other Sri Dasam Granth compositions.

The Akal Takht has now declared Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana as Tankhaiya maybe his followers (Gurtej Singh) should now also accept the verdict of the Takht. The objectors of the Sri Dasam Granth are now on the run and their shortcomings will be exposed one by one. The way the Sri Dasam Granth has shaped and changed Sikhism is too numerous to mention. Next time somebody raises a question on the Sri Dasam Granth tell them there is no debate.

Gurinder Singh Mann,

Bsc M.A

Leicester

UK

[ghorandhar]

The key point is that various sources point out the Giani has an anti Dasam Granth agenda.

You can believe these sources or you can choose to ignore to them but there seems to be more

than one pointing to the same conclusion.

Read my first post where i clearly state that after last weeks Hukum regarding Dasam Granth another

person is weighing in and trying to flex their muscle.

I am saying that there should not be a debate not based on what the Akal Takht has requested but because there is nothing to debate.

Read this fine article below:

Dasam Granth-There is no debate. The magazine approach to Guru Gobind Singh's writings dissected.

There has been considerable debate lately regarding the writings and poetry of Guru Gobind Singh. There has never been such a debate since the compilation of writings now termed the Sri Dasam Granth. We need to ask ourselves if something has changed for people to doubt Sri Dasam Granth. Has there been a revelation in which scholars now find that Guru Gobind Singh did not write the material found in the Granth. This is theme of this article.

Scholars have a duty to look at different sides of an argument and to present this information clearly to the reader. There have been many articles appearing in various Sikh books and magazine/journals taking a journalistic approach to the Sri Dasam Granth.

Sikhs seem to fear Hindu concepts and ideas. Indeed there has been a change in the minds of the Sikhs since partition and most notably since 1984. Terms are banded about like the "Brahmical Octopus" and people who appear to have anti-Sikh sentiments are labelled as agents of RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh). The RSS has been pivotal in dividing Sikh scholars in terms of authenticity of the Sri Dasam Granth. However this problem has become so widespread that some people have written about and denounced the Bani's of Guru Gobind Singh used in the Baptismal process. My question is what next?

The Akal Takht has used its supreme powers to summon anybody who is in contempt of the Sikh Rehat Maryada. Lately there has been a case where one writer of Sikhism (Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana) has refused to come to the Akal Takht, when summoned he has cited grounds of ill health. To send a replacement is even more futile (Gurtej Singh). This is what is happening, as not are only some scholars in contempt of the Sikh Rehat Maryada but then a farce is made of over how the proceeding should take place. I am not levelling blame on the Akal Takhat but certain issues need to be resolved quickly as otherwise they fester and take a life of their own. Debates on the Sri Dasam Granth are unfounded as the Granth is ingrained into the psyche of Sikhism. The problem lies in the fact that many Sikhs are not aware of the role the Sri Dasam Granth plays in Khalsa. The Guru most majestically did not include his Bani into the Guru Granth Sahib although he could have done so. However a Granth compiled several years after the Gurus merging with the almighty was the culmination of the spirit of the Guru. Only Guru Gobind Singh could speak about his role on this earth (Bachitra Natak), an autobiographical description of his battles and his place amongst the other Gurus. Only Guru Gobind Singh could talk about the different names and attributes of God (Jaap Sahib and Akal Ustat). The Sri Dasam Granth is a far more superior text than people give credit for and its place in Indian history cannot be allowed to be marginalised. The early Guru's could include the words from the Bhagats who were from different creeds and castes. Why cannot reinterpreted Hindu myths be included into the Sri Dasam Granth? People fail to take into account the context of Guru Gobind's Singh's wrtings. Imagine the Guru's durbar where there are many people present but to bring home the message of having a valiant and fighting spirit the Guru recites the battles of the Goddess Chandi. The Guru has a two-fold argument not only he is bringing this tale into context but he is securing the Sikhs mind by stating that there is not only a physical battle in life but a mental one as well. There are all sorts of demons in the cosmos and they can appear in all sorts of forms. The writings of the Guru need to be understood fully and a literal translation does not do any justice to the Guru. Metaphors, similes are the order of the day with Guru Gobind Singh. Even Professors of Sikhism have made mistakes by trying to dissect the writings and prove them to be of a Brahminical nature.

So are these scholars of Sikhism wrong?

It seems very peculiar that since the late 1700's the Sri Dasam Granth has been seen as the equal of the Guru Granth Sahib but now overnight the Granth is the work of Brahmins and not of the Guru. Endless accounts can be found from 1700 onwards that the Sri Dasam Granth is the work of Guru Gobind Singh. The name of the Granth may have changed but the contents have largely remained the same. Every battle description of Guru Gobind Singh has been taken from Bachitra Natak. In the period of the Misl's Gurmattas were taken with both Granths lying side by side. This process has not changed with certain Gurudwaras including two of the Sikh Takhts housing the Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth. Patna Sahib and Hazoor Sahib view the Sri Dasam Granth as a Holy Scripture and Hukumnamas are taken from the Granth. According to certain writers and scholars these practices and accounts of the Guru must be incorrect.

Another approach by Scholars has been to dissect the Granth by quoting only from the Charitropakhyan and hence proving that the Sri Dasam Granth is a pornographic manual. Once again context has been neglected and these cautionary tales would have been recited in the Guru's durbar to show the effects of bad human behaviour. The Chaupai part of the Nitnem Banis is taken from the last Charitra. This on its own does not prove that it is work of the Guru. However early manuscript copies of the Sri Dasam Granth contain this work as well as it being available independently in Gutka and Pothi form. The only debate that has occurred in the past was whether the Charitropakhyan should be bound with the rest of the Granth. This authenticity question has only sprung up recently.

What is the debate?

There is no debate moreover the role of the Sri Dasam Granth has been marginalised over the years. The more people are unaware of the Granth the more uncertainty seems to grip peoples imagination. However the problem is that people are not aware of the Guru's Bani. People read Guru Gobind Singh's Bani day in day out whilst reciting prayers from the Nitnem. The Sikh Rehat Maryada gives approval of reciting Guru Gobind Singh shabads in Gurudwaras, (Together with Bhai Gurdas Vars). Kirtan from the Sri Dasam Granth can be heard on a regular basis at Harimandir Sahib. Endless amounts of CD's are produced in the market promoting the Guru's Bani. The Katha of the Dasam Granth is widely available. Baba Deep Singh authored one of the original Birs of the Dasam Granth. The Damdami Taksal who takes their lineage from this mighty warrior venerates the Dasam Granth as a Guru. Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale also from Damdami Taksal was fully versed in the Sri Dasam Granth. To this day his Katha of the Sri Dasam Granth is sought after. The Akali Nihangs do not have a debate on the Granth as they not only see the Sri Dasam Granth as scripture but the Sarbloh Granth as well. The Nihangs have many practices and rituals which come from the Sri Dasam Granth and also the fighting spirit as enshrined in Shastarvidyia is based on Jaap Sahib, Krishna Avatar, Shastar Nam Mala and other Sri Dasam Granth compositions.

The Akal Takht has now declared Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana as Tankhaiya maybe his followers (Gurtej Singh) should now also accept the verdict of the Takht. The objectors of the Sri Dasam Granth are now on the run and their shortcomings will be exposed one by one. The way the Sri Dasam Granth has shaped and changed Sikhism is too numerous to mention. Next time somebody raises a question on the Sri Dasam Granth tell them there is no debate.

Gurinder Singh Mann,

Bsc M.A

Leicester

UK

Oh right, if someone says something about another person it must be true. (no audio or written proof needs to be provided from the person who is alleged to have written all this). Just like you saying he questions the nitnem, amrit bania and rehrass sahib, your sources are full of lies, the book Darpan Sikh rehit maryada is written in full support of the panthic Sikh rehit maryada and the jatehdhar of Akal Takhat calls it a salanayoog karag. When these sources make lies up about the book Gurbax Singh has wrote, you expect us to believe them when they say Gurbax Singh has an anti Dasam granth agenda. He is not good with his anti Dasam granth agenda when he says u should read Jaap Sahib, Swayaai and Chaupai. Seems to defeat the object dont you think?

Basically you guys are just slandering some guy who has written a book which is on the panthic sikh rehit maryada and tells us to follow the Akal takhat. Then your source (Singhsabhacanada.com) is saying that Gurbax Singh will speak against the dasam granth. You have already made ur decision on his beliefs by the title of the post, I dont understand the point in this. If he does speak against the DG in the radio discussion then fair enough, say what you want, until then what right do you have to write posts and slander people?

So there is supposed to be no debate on the DG, then you post an article which debates the issue of DG. :gg:

[GSMANN]

You are going around in circles and obviously not reading what has been posted.

The sources mentioned are credible, looks you should read the first post again and the related links in depth.

In the interest of Sikh unity the Akal Takht has asked from refraining from debates on the Dasam Granth and

this Giani like others before him are trying to continue this charade.

I have not slandered anybody i have posted some information related to a person who is violating the Akal Takht

Hukumnama, as a result he slanders himself.

The article posted is clear Dasam Granth-There is no debate.

[ghorandhar]

You are going around in circles and obviously not reading what has been posted.

The sources mentioned are credible, looks you should read the first post again and the related links in depth.

In the interest of Sikh unity the Akal Takht has asked from refraining from debates on the Dasam Granth and

this Giani like others before him are trying to continue this charade.

I have not slandered anybody i have posted some information related to a person who is violating the Akal Takht

Hukumnama, as a result he slanders himself.

The article posted is clear Dasam Granth-There is no debate.

He has not violated the Akal Takhat yet, unless you have some power to know what he will say 2night. your first post makes no sense, because he does not say any of the things which are claiming. You should read the book veer jee and then make your opinion, its only 250 rupees.

[GSMANN]

The article makes perfect sense based on all the sources however if you feel these sources are not correct then contact these individuals to make amends which includes a large national Indian Newspaper a International Human Rights Organisation and two Internet sites.

All these people must be incorrect based on your assertions.

Yes a picture can be painted aboust somebody based on their actions and associations. So predictions are not necessary it is quite clear.