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Panjabradio Entertains Anti Dasam Granth Person.


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<<<....Veer Inder Singh je, I said Baba Deep Singh jee compiled a dasam granth, so whats your point? Veer Sun jee the point is that Baba Deep Singh jee compiled the dasam granth (he had to do so because it was not present with him), therefore how was the dasam granth parkash right from the existence of the Taksal (Before Oct 1708). There is no doubt that these Gursikhs worked hard to collect the bani during a time where we could not even live out in the open (which must have made it so hard to find the different writings). >>>

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Apart from that there were two manuscripts of Dasam Granth written in 1697 called hazuri bir and Patna bir.These two manuscripts along with khas patras (written by tenth master) are there in USA with a friend of mine.The dates of compilations are there and it bears signature of tenth master.

Is Namak haram Gulshan interested to see those manuscripts?Bet on it.

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The argument here has gone around in circles without a clinching statement to prove any issue. I do not want to take any side. However if all the veerji's posting don't mind, i want to say something. Each and every historical moment in Sikhi is very well doccumented. Even the stories of janamSakhis, which are considered to be hagiographies can be corrobrated to many extents. However there is no mention of dasam Granth as a granth , in present form, before MALCOLM.

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However there is no mention of dasam Granth as a granth , in present form, before MALCOLM.

Its better to check facts rather than making arbitrary statements...

Here is the beerh of Sri Dasam Granth from 1698, one year before the formation of Khalsa. And read the name of the granth and the date on the top...

Sri Dasam Granth Beerh from 1698

http://www.santsipahi.org/patshahi10/Beerh...201698%20AD.pdf

PS: Malcolm doesnt write "Dasam Granth" in his writings. Rather he writes "Dasama Padshah ka Granth". This was the actual name of the granth at that time and which i think is the appropriate way to address the granth of the tenth master!

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K_Z its for the Singh Sahiban to take action if they wish. Your suggestion would only lead to beadbi and arguments in Guru granth Sahib jees hazari, I feel this would shameful. Veechar is one thing, what you are suggesting would lead to similar storys as the bistee a few years back at Akal Takhat (Maan was involved).

hang on hang on!!

so basically people are talking rubbish then!

How can you pass a mata and then not action it!?!

It shows how empty and pointless the jathdhars at this point in time!

What is the point in having this 'veechar', passing acts etc and then not wanting to implement them due to causing problems! wouldnt it be better not to say anything in the first place if your not going to do anything about it.

there is one word for this ... and i wont type it here but we all know what it is!

if they beleive something and can have these big meetings and abuse their positions, then they should have the 'footballs' to do what they say!!

bundha thanks for the reply, what you said is 100% correct. it seems like were loosing the deep spirituality and understanding of our faith and become plain, simple and unintelligent rather then the wonderful sikhs maharajh wanted us to become!

i repeat again, this whole episode is politics to split the panth again. no jathedhars or sgpc force will do anything, but the sangat outside will start arguing and fighting as usual.

the panth needs freedom from the shackles of the indian govt, the akal takhat also needs freedom from the tentacles of the indian govt and other self serving politicians and individuals.

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Veer Inder Singh jee, dont worry about me answering questions, Im still waiting for evidence that Gurbax Singh Gulshan does not have the intellect to understand the mataphors of the Dasam granth. And you cant blame your scanner on this one. Its easy to call people, lack in intellect, liars and crooks, but to then backing it up is something else. Veer jee simply look at Bhai Kahn Singh jee Nabhas Mahan Kosh under Dasam GRanth (page 616). Esp look at the arguments which took place on whether the Dasam granth should be in one granth or different pothi's. This was the issue which I was referring to.

If the Dasam granth was parkash since the Damdami Taksal came into existence, then why was Bhai Mani Singh asked to gather Guru Gobind Singh jees bani? He should have simply gone to Damdama Sahib. Why did Baba Deep Singh also gather Dasam Guru jees bani, it seems odd, the jathedhar of the Damdami Taksal has parkash of the dasam granth and did not know? Its obvious that there was no parkash otherwise why would baba Deep Singh try to find something which is supposed to be lost, but right under his nose.

Bhai Sahib AadSach I dont need such a light which you require and suggest, maharajs updesh is the light which we require, the following shabad makes it clear and will take me out of Ghorandhar: ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਸਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਚੁ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਖਲੋਆ ਆਇ ਜਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਗੈ ਘਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਪੋਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਜਮਕਾਲੁ ਸਚਾ ਰਖਵਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗਾਇ ਦੀਵਾ ਬਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਪਸੂ ਮਾਣਸ ਚੰਮਿ ਪਲੇਟੇ ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਕਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਸਭੋ ਵਰਤੈ ਸਚੁ ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪੂਰੈ ਗੁਰਿ ਦੇਖਾਲਿਆ ॥੧੪॥

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੫ ॥ ਅਛਲ ਛਲਾਈ ਨਹ ਛਲੈ ਨਹ ਘਾਉ ਕਟਾਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਕੈ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਹੈ ਇਸੁ ਲੋਭੀ ਕਾ ਜੀਉ ਟਲ ਪਲੈ ॥੧॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਤੇਲ ਦੀਵਾ ਕਿਉ ਜਲੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਪੋਥੀ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਕਮਾਈਐ ॥ ਭਉ ਵਟੀ ਇਤੁ ਤਨਿ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਸਚੁ ਬੂਝਣੁ ਆਣਿ ਜਲਾਈਐ ॥੨॥ ਇਹੁ ਤੇਲੁ ਦੀਵਾ ਇਉ ਜਲੈ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਤਉ ਮਿਲੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਇਤੁ ਤਨਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਬਾਣੀਆ ॥ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ ਕਮਾਣੀਆ ॥ ਸਭ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣੀਆ ॥੩॥ ਵਿਚਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਸੇਵ ਕਮਾਈਐ ॥ ਤਾ ਦਰਗਹ ਬੈਸਣੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਾਹ ਲੁਡਾਈਐ ॥੪॥੩੩॥

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਦੀਵਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੇਲੁ ॥ ਉਨਿ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਓਹੁ ਸੋਖਿਆ ਚੂਕਾ ਜਮ ਸਿਉ ਮੇਲੁ ॥੧॥ ਲੋਕਾ ਮਤ ਕੋ ਫਕੜਿ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਲਖ ਮੜਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਏਕਠੇ ਏਕ ਰਤੀ ਲੇ ਭਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪਤਲਿ ਮੇਰੀ ਕੇਸਉ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥ ਐਥੈ ਓਥੈ ਆਗੈ ਪਾਛੈ ਏਹੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ ਗੰਗ ਬਨਾਰਸਿ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ਨਾਵੈ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਉ ॥ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਤਾਂ ਥੀਐ ਜਾਂ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਭਾਉ ॥੩॥ ਇਕ ਲੋਕੀ ਹੋਰੁ ਛਮਿਛਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਵਟਿ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਖਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਕਾ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਿਖੂਟਸਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੪॥੨॥੩੨॥

ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਵਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਬਾਤੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਤੇਲੁ ਲੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਸਾਰੇ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ ਭਇਓ ਉਜਿਆਰੋ ਭਵਨ ਸਗਲਾਰੇ ॥੨॥

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਰਲਾਈਐ ਏਤੁ ॥ ਤਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਤੁਲਹਾ ਲੰਘਹਿ ਜੇਤੁ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਭਾਹਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਤੂ ਰਖੁ ॥ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਦੀਵਾ ਬਲੈ ਅਥਕੁ ॥੧॥ ਐਸਾ ਦੀਵਾ ਨੀਰਿ ਤਰਾਇ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਦੀਵੈ ਸਭ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਹਛੀ ਮਿਟੀ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਮਾਨੈ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਕਰਣੀ ਤੇ ਕਰਿ ਚਕਹੁ ਢਾਲਿ ॥ ਐਥੈ ਓਥੈ ਨਿਬਹੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੨॥ ਆਪੇ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਜਾ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਤਿਤੁ ਘਟਿ ਦੀਵਾ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਪਾਣੀ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਬੁਝਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਐਸਾ ਦੀਵਾ ਨੀਰਿ ਤਰਾਇ ॥੩॥ ਡੋਲੈ ਵਾਉ ਨ ਵਡਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਿਉ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਣਿ ਲੋਇ ॥ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਸੂਦੁ ਕਿ ਵੈਸੁ ॥ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਗਣੀ ਸਹੰਸ ॥ ਐਸਾ ਦੀਵਾ ਬਾਲੇ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਪਾਰੰਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥

Maharaj mehar kari.

The masands which you refer to are called Singh Sahib jee and you should read what the Guru Panth Khalsa means before you call people masands.

One last thing Veer jee, there is no such thing as the SGPC maryada, they have published it, this is the maryada of the Guru panth Khalsa (not any jhata) and signed by the AKal Takhat.. I hope this piece of information will take you out of ghorandhar :D .

Nice post Veer Bundha jee.

Veer Khalsaland jee we disagre on what Gurbax Singh jee said, however I dont understand why you did not ring the show? Also you can simply write a letter or ring Gurbax Singh. The controversy regarding the Dasam granth before 1970 can be found in Mahan Kosh. The controversy was mostly over issues as the Dasam granth being in one volume or more than one, the fact that this was discussed only shows that parkash was not done by Guru Gobind Singh jee, therefore the question was are we right to do what guru jee did not. Veer jee, I believe that the Dasam granth is the bani of Guru Gobind Singh jee, however as the direction of the Akal Takhat has been made clear I feel we should follow this decision. Ive also read your views, however, veer jee its clear when we read the panthic Sikh rehit maryada and the direction now given by the AKal Takhat.

The rehit maryada says the following: 'Sri Guru Granth SAhib jee di vakar (tull ) kishi pustaak.'

The Rehit maryada does not allow any other granth other than the Guru GRanth Sahib (note that only the guru Granth sahib jee is referred to as being parkash), Vakar means same as (to the guru granth Sahib) Tull means: matching, like, equal, equivalent, similar, proportional resembling, comparable. The panthic Sikh rehit maryada does not allow parkash of the Dasam granth or any other granth/pothi etc, furthermore Mata number 1 from the Akal Takhat does not allow parkash of the Dasam granth.

Guror andhar(absolute darkness)

What a funny post.I have given you the example of Gulshan not being able to understand the myth of creation as in Bachitra natak.

Can i get a refrence that says that dasam Granth was a disputed granth?You need to know that Baba Deeep singh himself had compiled Dasam Granth.Keeping dasam Granth in one or two volumes i.e. seprating charitropakhayan from rest of compositions does not make it a disputed Granth.

Please do not act like a crook.If you or your friend namak haram Gulshan has any refrence give it here.Otherwise say you do not have that.

Bhai Sahib Inder Singh jee, the reason why I asked for Audio or written evidence (from giani Gurbax Singh own pen or voice) is because I was not aware of his views on the bachittar natak, So please send us this evidence so we can also see his lack of intellect as you claim. (you still keep ignoring this issue and provide no evidence) :gg:

Like I said before, why did you not ring the radio programme? Or you could write him a letter or ring him. Before you do this you might want to read the following updesh from guru maharaj: imTqu nIvI nwnkw gux cMigAweIAw qqu ] So it might not be wise to use the language you do.

To use the word disputed granth is incorrect, I assume you did not read Bhai Kahn Singh jees Mahan Kosh. The appropriate word is controversey regarding the compilation. Ive not discussing the contents as I believe in it and the Akal takhat give us directions on this issue (Ive made this point so many times). Where has the issue of disputed granth come from? Its not something which we have been discussing and it seems your trying to put words into my mouth and divert the issue. I was asked for a referance proving some evidence of controversey before 1970, ive provided it, so end of issue. :D If I have called the Dasam granth a disputed granth (meaning the content is disputed) I ask for muafee.

Erm....Veer Inder Singh je, I said Baba Deep Singh jee compiled a dasam granth, so whats your point? Veer Sun jee the point is that Baba Deep Singh jee compiled the dasam granth (he had to do so because it was not present with him), therefore how was the dasam granth parkash right from the existence of the Taksal (Before Oct 1708). There is no doubt that these Gursikhs worked hard to collect the bani during a time where we could not even live out in the open (which must have made it so hard to find the different writings).

K_Z its for the Singh Sahiban to take action if they wish. Your suggestion would only lead to beadbi and arguments in Guru granth Sahib jees hazari, I feel this would shameful. Veechar is one thing, what you are suggesting would lead to similar storys as the bistee a few years back at Akal Takhat (Maan was involved).

Controversey on what?There was no controversey on the contents of Dasam Granth.

There was an opinion by some whether to keep charitropakhayan along with other compositions or it should be separate.How does it become controversey?Please explain me.

Bhai Kahan singh Nabha has himself acknowledged and revered Dasam Granth.Read his book "Hum Hindu Nahin" where he quotes extensively to prove Hindus wrong regarding banis of Dasam Granth.

So Show me the controversey from sikh history where there was question mark on authenticity of Dasam granth.

By the way are you an agent of these hidden forces like namak haram Darshan Lal bhatra and now Gulshan.

Veer Inder Singh jee, You just dont understand anything. Firstly you have not read mahan kosh and for the 5th time, the controversey was not regarding the content, why cant you understand this simple point that im making? The controversey which I am talking about you have already touched upon. The discussion at that time was how compiliation was going to take place. End of the day the guru panth khalsa has made its decision, so we must follow, however you cant change the fact that this discussion took place and there was disagreements amongst people on the compilation. The whole reason for changing the discussion to this point is because you dont have any evidence of Gulshans lack of intellect. Until you can provide the evidence, what right do you have calling people names?

Lol, you are a joker, youve been watching to many movies mate. I only follow the Akal Takhat, Im no agent of anyone.

You still dont get it, the granth from 1697 could not contain all the shabads of Guru Gobind Singh jee. For example how could shabads concerning the Khalsa and Zafarnama be within this granth? Therefore some gursikhs undertook an amazing seva in collecting the bani. You claim that the Dasam granth was always parkash since the Taksal came into existence, you have provided no proof of this. Rather this point is contrary to logic, if the Dasam granth was parkash from when the taksal came into existence, Baba Deep Singh jee would not have had to collect the bani. End of the day you will either follow the Panth or you wont. If you have a problem with gulshan, contact him. If you have a problem with the Akal Takhat contact them. If you got nothing new to add (like the evidence requested), then there is no point continuing to discuss as we have discussed what Gulshan has written in his book and what we said on the radio.

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K_Z its for the Singh Sahiban to take action if they wish. Your suggestion would only lead to beadbi and arguments in Guru granth Sahib jees hazari, I feel this would shameful. Veechar is one thing, what you are suggesting would lead to similar storys as the bistee a few years back at Akal Takhat (Maan was involved).

hang on hang on!!

so basically people are talking rubbish then!

How can you pass a mata and then not action it!?!

It shows how empty and pointless the jathdhars at this point in time!

What is the point in having this 'veechar', passing acts etc and then not wanting to implement them due to causing problems! wouldnt it be better not to say anything in the first place if your not going to do anything about it.

there is one word for this ... and i wont type it here but we all know what it is!

if they beleive something and can have these big meetings and abuse their positions, then they should have the 'footballs' to do what they say!!

bundha thanks for the reply, what you said is 100% correct. it seems like were loosing the deep spirituality and understanding of our faith and become plain, simple and unintelligent rather then the wonderful sikhs maharajh wanted us to become!

i repeat again, this whole episode is politics to split the panth again. no jathedhars or sgpc force will do anything, but the sangat outside will start arguing and fighting as usual.

the panth needs freedom from the shackles of the indian govt, the akal takhat also needs freedom from the tentacles of the indian govt and other self serving politicians and individuals.

I did not say the Akal Takhat should not take action. I said it was for the SIngh Sahiban to take action. As individuals I feel we should not.

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I did not say the Akal Takhat should not take action. I said it was for the SIngh Sahiban to take action. As individuals I feel we should not.

well seeing as they never take any action on any other point, i dont think they will action this either. lots of bark but no bite.

there is so much action these men should be doing, but they dont. if they do decide to action this so called mata it will be hilarious! because they choose to do nothing to remember the shaheeds of 84 (ie the planned memorial), they have done little to follow up the ram raheem fiasco, etc. but they are all in a huff and a puff because suddenly they realise something which has been happening for years and which causes NO HARM at all!

youth abusing drugs, alochol, their kesh, the land, the rivers, the singhs still in prisons, the widows etc these are the issues they should be dealing with. but why kid ourselves they wont do anything for anything.

my suggestion is therefore to stop arguing, people have tried to light a fire and then sit back and watch, lets not give them the satisfaction. this is all just goverment tricks to make the sikhs weaker. please dont let them achieve their goals.

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ou still dont get it, the granth from 1697 could not contain all the shabads of Guru Gobind Singh jee. For example how could shabads concerning the Khalsa and Zafarnama be within this granth? Therefore some gursikhs undertook an amazing seva in collecting the bani. You claim that the Dasam granth was always parkash since the Taksal came into existence, you have provided no proof of this. Rather this point is contrary to logic, if the Dasam granth was parkash from when the taksal came into existence, Baba Deep Singh jee would not have had to collect the bani. End of the day you will either follow the Panth or you wont. If you have a problem with gulshan, contact him. If you have a problem with the Akal Takhat contact them. If you got nothing new to add (like the evidence requested), then there is no point continuing to discuss as we have discussed what Gulshan has written in his book and what we said on the radio.

Yes they do not have zafarnama as it was written afterwards in 1704.That proves a point that Granth was compiled in 1697.It is a slap on the face of Gurnindaks who have no methodolgy to disprove Dasam Granth.

Tell me what are shabads of khalsa.That shows you do not know about Dasam Granth.

You do not understand and creating unnecessary doubts.There was no controversey on authenticity but a discussion if to keep granth as one or to separate Charirtropakhayan.That does not reflect on authenticity of Dasam Granth.You have no reference to prove your point and repeating the same irrelevant thing again and again.

The gurnindaks like missionaries,Darshan Bhatra are saying form the top of roof that this granth iS NOT WRITTEN by Guru ji but by some sakat.I WANT REFERENCE FOR THAT.HAVE YOU ONE.

However there is no mention of dasam Granth as a granth , in present form, before MALCOLM

Does that make it granth of someone else?Hoe does it matter?It does not change contents.

We had pothi sahib,adi granth,sri guru granth and then SGGS.

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well seeing as they never take any action on any other point, i dont think they will action this either. lots of bark but no bite.

there is so much action these men should be doing, but they dont. if they do decide to action this so called mata it will be hilarious! because they choose to do nothing to remember the shaheeds of 84 (ie the planned memorial), they have done little to follow up the ram raheem fiasco, etc. but they are all in a huff and a puff because suddenly they realise something which has been happening for years and which causes NO HARM at all!

youth abusing drugs, alochol, their kesh, the land, the rivers, the singhs still in prisons, the widows etc these are the issues they should be dealing with. but why kid ourselves they wont do anything for anything.

my suggestion is therefore to stop arguing, people have tried to light a fire and then sit back and watch, lets not give them the satisfaction. this is all just goverment tricks to make the sikhs weaker. please dont let them achieve their goals.

Yeah right! Also there is lot of pressure on Akalis from all sides. When the potrait of baba jarnail singh was installed in museum, it was raising a lot of heat. You cannot deny that majority of (you know who) still HATE POORAN GURSIKHS in India. When the fiasco of that thug ram raheem happened, NOT A SINGLE MEDIA NEWS CHANNEL OR NEWSPAPER supported sikhs for the first few days. The guys from his deras were blasting guru sahib on all major channels. It was only after the salabatpura dera demolition that they adopted a saner attitude and when the activities such as rape and murders by dera got media attention.

At the end of day, in India, vote bank plays supreme. We are paying the price because of our less numbers and straightforward attitude. But that is another matter and not the one related to this.

So Singho, panth is in chardi kala. We need to stay united and as brothers, as guru sahib wanted us to be when he gave Gurgaddi to Guru Granth and Khalsa Panth.

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when i said masands i didnt mean the singh sahibs everybody knows they dont make the decisions its the sgpc and akalis that make the decisions with directive from sarkar they are the true masands.

i actually feel sorry for singh sahib joginder singh he has been given the privelage to be jathedar but he hasnt got it in him to perform as he should be

the fact is all 3 singh sahibs from panjab will be in the hazoori of dhan sri guru granth sahib ji along with sri dasam guru granth sahib ji in just a few months at the 300 saalaa. ghor andhar you have admitted you wont do anything lets see if our singh sahibs can stop the parallel prakash at takht sri abchal nagar sach khand sri hazoor sahib

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