Key Discussion

[SikherOfTheNaam]

Thanks for all the responses.

Phenjee, I'd just like to point out if i may that my post doesn't conflict the idea of faith and that as I did state 'Asking Maharaj is the best way in which to understand his univerise, hukam and obtain the answers, however it is also important that the sangat address these 'modern day' problems and through this; maybe by his hukam and kirpaa we will be enlightened.'

My post tries to ask these questions which remain unanswered, for they do need to be discussed to be answered. For instance, if a gursikh gains such knowledge to actually get a response, he/she needs to be discuss it with others? Surely. For it is faith that acts as the foundation that we need and our voice and actions need to build upon this.

If no one discussed such issuess; it is highly likely they would still be ignored. E.g. Once again in relaiton to Rehit Maryada, it was faith in Vaaheguroo that acted as the foundation and through us, we now know what the actual code of conduct is for a sikh - if that makes any sense.

I am just trying to highlight the fact that issues such as whether women can be in the Panj, carrying out kundalini yoga, gay marriages etc. which all affect us in one way or another need to be highlighted if not; try and be answered.

I hope I haven't offended anyone as this wasn't my intention.

Vaaheguroo Jee Kaa Khaalsaa Vaaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh

[khalistan_zindabaad]

The majority of Sant Mahapurkhs being male and female state that bibia shouldnt lad in panj pyareh, respected abhyaasi gursikhs state this, ones who have had maharaj sahib jees darshan and are one with them. i.e. a very high avastha. . .We look at this from a low avastha point of view and from our manmat ppoint of view, if you dont agree with what these gurmukh mahapurkhs state then as another poster said, do the bhagti yourself and ask maharaj jee.

[Tera]

Some of our sisters also object: "Sant Ji, why don't you give the Parshaad of the Five Beloved Ones to us. Why don't you include women among the Five Beloved Ones?" I shall humbly say this to (our) mothers:

"Mothers, no Sikh is jealous of you. There is no discrimination. But this is your own weakness. It is not in my control. When our Beloved Guru (Siri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib), in 1756 (Bikram calendar, equivalent to 1699 A.D.), asked for heads, he did not say he needed the head of a man or woman. At that time, He only said He needed a head. Of the gathering of 80,000 no woman got up to have her head cut off by the sword. Only those will get Parshaad who had their heads cut off. How can others get it? For this reason, there is no discrimination in our mind. If someone does have it, it is his business.

(Some persons shout the Jaikaara) Now, at this time you men shout the Jaikaara about women being mentioned in this manner, but note that in this protest movement, the share of our mothers has not been less than ours. It is true that there is this accusation (of not volunteering when Siri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib asked for a head) but keep in mind that Bhagats, people called Gurus, and those who were Divine Incarnations, were born of them. Stay united. If, in the course of my speech, I uttered a harsh word, I implore the entire Congregation to forgive me regarding me as an humble servant of the Congregation, and an uneducated fallible person. Once again, in concluding, I implore you to take Amrit and be prepared.

Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale

[AK-47]

of course they are allowed in panj pyaareh. why not?sum women i know have more heart than me, than any other guy i know. ive seen women in panj pyaareh and good on them. look at mai bhago back in teh day now u name me any guy 2day that cudve doen what shes done. rather than saying to her what a woman...id rather say what a sikh!!!

Whats that got to do with diddly squat?!

What does mata bhag kaur jis actions have to do with the seva of panj pyareh? Or are you just picking her name out of some magic hat? Do you know whether mata ji did any seva in panj pyareh? If not then why not? What she did was more then many guys in HER DAY could have done as well, but she still didnt do panja di seva, so its pointless bringing her into arguements 300 years later!

And to the person that said 'say to mata ji'. ermm as others have said, YOU do the bhagti and YOU ask her yourself. Personally i think she'd probably give you a thapar for questioning the rehat of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and the Panj Pyareh.

Simple fact is for centuries this was NOT as issue. In recent times certain people and jathabandis have stirred this issue up to bring conflict and confusion in the panth and to promote their own self interests. Funny thing is I would venture 99% of these people themselves took amrit from panj singhs who would also have believed in panj singhs but now for some reason they find a problem with it ... lol

Vast majority of the panth accepts Guru Sahibs maryada, and only 1 or 2 very small jathebandia are pushing this angle. Lets at least have some faith that our ancestors where able to at least keep the basics of the true maryada of the amrit sanchar alive.

But no sorry i forgot, all things modern, western etc etc are better then the old. we obviously all know better because we have done so much bhagti. Oh and i forgot that despite countless mahapursh saying the same thing and despite them having done the bhagti, maharajh never cured them of sexism and still had them discriminate towards women. So these guys knew vaheguru and had bhramgian, but still couldnt see women with respect?! Yeh ok then!

Cant wait to see amrit sanchars with seats for everyone, a blender instead of the khanda, granulated sugar, mugs to drink out of, men and women all taking off their trousers (why discriminate hey!!) etc etc, after all whats the value of tradition hey! <_<

[khalistan_zindabaad]

OMG, This Singh is halarious, I know how this is ging to sound but here goes . . . everyone should be allowed o do seva in panj, even if they are male/female/a bit of both or even gays and the less able gursikhs aswell. . .

BECAUSE the body dsnt matter, its the soul and abhiyaas that matters???? At the end of the day, why leave it at women, why not abhiyaasi gays? (i dont think they exist) but why not (a lot of sarcasm) why not the less able gursikhs as its only the soul that maters . . .come one maharaj jee said panj singh .... That could include disabled singhs aswell innit????

and the bit about a electric blender... well its a valid point, we need to move with the times, come on it will give more of a blend to the amrit? (OR NOT) . . . We need to be modern (as per the pathetic new age jathas think) . . . and chairs and SARBLOH jugs are a must (lol) as some kids cant hold the baata, and it will prevent amrit spillges, come on te batas are massive ... Maharaj jee should have known (questioning maharaj now.. pathetic thinking of jathas)

Ak47 pointed a valid point, the seats, come on its hard standing for 45 mins to listen to the nitnem bania.... As we want full out quality and modernisation. ... THE BIBIA SHOULD WEAR BANAS AND NO PAJAMIA... Come on, its not fair that the males have to take theres off but the bibia dont... THATS DEFINATELY NOT EQUAL.....COMMON THE EQUAL RIGHTS PROTEST.... COME ON... ITS JST NOT FAIR, . . .Ok lets take this thinknig even further now, Why is it that only women can give birth,. thats un equal aswell, god should have made ale and femal equal, ohhh was god sexist as well then. . . . ooops i forgot the soul is equal. oh yeh.

And another point, if we are all equal, i.e. bibia same as males (hence panj bibia in amrit sanchaar) then i dont see why they need seperate bathrooms and changing areas. ( i think that a bit Over the top, but making a point)

Feel Free to discriminate against my post, take it with a lot of sarcasm and dont htink that i agree with it, its just trying to take things further, which is something these new aged ''panthic'' westernised jathas will start doing as they like to try and convert ppl into there thinknig and do there gupt sessions and discriminate against those that dont agree with them.

of course they are allowed in panj pyaareh. why not?sum women i know have more heart than me, than any other guy i know. ive seen women in panj pyaareh and good on them. look at mai bhago back in teh day now u name me any guy 2day that cudve doen what shes done. rather than saying to her what a woman...id rather say what a sikh!!!

Whats that got to do with diddly squat?!

What does mata bhag kaur jis actions have to do with the seva of panj pyareh? Or are you just picking her name out of some magic hat? Do you know whether mata ji did any seva in panj pyareh? If not then why not? What she did was more then many guys in HER DAY could have done as well, but she still didnt do panja di seva, so its pointless bringing her into arguements 300 years later!

And to the person that said 'say to mata ji'. ermm as others have said, YOU do the bhagti and YOU ask her yourself. Personally i think she'd probably give you a thapar for questioning the rehat of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and the Panj Pyareh.

Simple fact is for centuries this was NOT as issue. In recent times certain people and jathabandis have stirred this issue up to bring conflict and confusion in the panth and to promote their own self interests. Funny thing is I would venture 99% of these people themselves took amrit from panj singhs who would also have believed in panj singhs but now for some reason they find a problem with it ... lol

Vast majority of the panth accepts Guru Sahibs maryada, and only 1 or 2 very small jathebandia are pushing this angle. Lets at least have some faith that our ancestors where able to at least keep the basics of the true maryada of the amrit sanchar alive.

But no sorry i forgot, all things modern, western etc etc are better then the old. we obviously all know better because we have done so much bhagti. Oh and i forgot that despite countless mahapursh saying the same thing and despite them having done the bhagti, maharajh never cured them of sexism and still had them discriminate towards women. So these guys knew vaheguru and had bhramgian, but still couldnt see women with respect?! Yeh ok then!

Cant wait to see amrit sanchars with seats for everyone, a blender instead of the khanda, granulated sugar, mugs to drink out of, men and women all taking off their trousers (why discriminate hey!!) etc etc, after all whats the value of tradition hey! <_<

[DSH]

WGJKK WGJKF,

I'll make this short:

A fundamental concept of Sikhism is equality.

And well those "Sikhs" that say that Sikh women shouldn't be allowed to be in the panj piare are complete and utter hypocrites!

[noonespecial]

deleted

[Only five]

DSH Jee,

I agree that equality is a principle of Sikhism, but there is Rehit as well.

Awhile back in Vancouver there was talk from some people that monay should be allowed in the Panj Pyare. They were questioning that Sikhi should be open to everyone. Now I'm sure you would say that having non-amritdhari people serving as Panj Pyare is absurd.

As far as I know there is no Rehitnama or historical text that talks about a woman serving as a Panj Pyara.

But let's take it a bit further:

Don't all Panj Pyare have to be physically fit? You can't have a handicapped person serve as a Panj Pyara. That, I believe, is stated in Rehitnamae. So why does no one fight for handicap rights?

The equality in Sikhi is that we all must follow the same REHIT. That is where the equality kicks in. There is no separate Rehit for women, or different castes, or people with physical disabilities, etc.

Women are not to do Panj Pyare Di Seva. I know amritdhari girls who absolutely agree with me. Sant Jee has spoken the truth; the bibiyan who are Guru Jee's daughters do not question these things.

Waheguru...

The rehit does not say anything about only Amritdhari men can give amrit.

A amritdhari woman is just as able to give amrit as an amritdhari man. If a woman wants to be apart of the five beloved ones and shes rejected then there must be a better reason than simply shes a woman.

[noonespecial]

deleted

[Only five]

paa(n)ch si(n)gh a(n)mrith jo dhaevai(n) thaa(n) ko sir dhhar shhak pun laevai ||apun mil paa(n)cho rehith jo bhaakhai thaa(n) ko man mae(n) dhrirr kar raakhai ||

Offer you head and take the Amrit prepared by five Singhs. The code of conduct (Rehat), which they bless you with, should be enshrined in one's heart.

"PANCH SINGH" veerji.

In that tuk singh is not refering to men only. Here's the rehat to who one says Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh too.

Awgy Awvq isMG ju pwvY ] vwihgurU kI Pqy bulwvY ]

aagae aavath si(n)gh j paavai || vaahiguroo kee fathae bulaavai ||

Whenever he sees another Singh approaching at a distance. He greets him with 'Vaheguru Jee Kaa Khalsa! Vaheguru Jee Kee Fatheh!!'

Here it only says Singh. So does that mean we do not say Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh to amritdhari women?

Its understood the term Singh is used loosely as Khalsa.