Re:

[s50]

Watch Replay Online

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00hq...British_Second/

[Kaljug Singh]

UK from what I have perceive appears to be a breeding ground for many hate groups. Every group seems to hate one another - whether it be Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Whites, Jews, Blacks, etc - in any combination. Radicalization is a misleading word, hate mongering and breeding would be more accurate.

The culture of the UK seems to be the issue. The reason I say this is because there are regions where Muslims are the dominant group and behave nothing like they do in the UK - also because of the rise of Neo-Nazis taking place in Europe and UK.

The fanatics of all worlds including Muslims seem to be getting out of control in the UK - however the rise of Hinduphobia and Islamophobia from Sikhs in this region appears to be far greater than other regions of the world as well.

I wonder if the culture of the UK in general is contributing to this, or if it is a spiral effect of reactionary violence founded in the heart of the Colonial Masters.

So it's Whitey's fault and Muslim terrorism is just a reaction to Colonialism?

What fanatics do you see as getting out of control in the UK (besides Muslims, that is)?

You will find evidence of similar behaviour from Muslims in every European country you will find them. The reason is nothing to do with a distant memory of pains inflicted by colonialism, it is rooted and founded in the Quran. All one needs to do is listen to the rhetoric of these Islamofascist groups and to actually give heed to the reasons that they themselves give.

Regards,

- K.

[proactive]

Another masterful analysis from Singhavelli! It might actually help if he knew the facts on the ground!

UK from what I have perceive appears to be a breeding ground for many hate groups. Every group seems to hate one another - whether it be Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Whites, Jews, Blacks, etc - in any combination.

Wrong again, Sikhs don't hate Jews and vice versa. Neither do Whites or Christians hate Jews or Sikhs or Hindus or Blacks. I suggest you don't simply rely on buwas such as Socialist Workers and so-called Progressive websites! The only combination is Muslims hate everyone else, simple as.

Right wing parties are only doing well because the mainstream parties are refusing to even acknowledge that a Muslim problem exists let alone try and resolve it.

Kalyug Singh is quite right. Muslims across Europe are engaged in the same acts as Muslims in the UK. Whether they do more or less than the UK Muslims depends on what percentage they have of the population. In Holland and France they pretty much run no go areas and Muslim only ghettos. The same in the case in some areas of Sweden and Norway. Denmark because they have decided to take the Muslim problem head on do not face the same problems. In fact I read that due to the harder immigration policy in Denmark many Muslims are moving to Sweden. In countries where they only have a small population such as Ireland they are keeping a low profile until they have sufficient numbers to cause some mayhem and start demanding 'rights' such as Sharia law etc.

[dalsingh101]

UK from what I have perceive appears to be a breeding ground for many hate groups. Every group seems to hate one another - whether it be Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Whites, Jews, Blacks, etc - in any combination. Radicalization is a misleading word, hate mongering and breeding would be more accurate.

Living in London I would disagree. It is pure radicalisation. And I don't really see any significant hate groups from amongst the Jews and Blacks. From my personal experiences many Black people have positive things to say about Sikhs. The problem is radicalisation because it involves a changing of perspective with an angry victim mentality. Also othering takes place to an extreme, where the "other" is majorly dehumanised, allowing all sorts of behaviour with no guilt. Maybe it would be more accurate to describe it as polarisation between groups?

The culture of the UK seems to be the issue. The reason I say this is because there are regions where Muslims are the dominant group and behave nothing like they do in the UK - also because of the rise of Neo-Nazis taking place in Europe and UK.

I think there may be some truth in this. I notice the hate seems to be deeply inbedded in the Northern parts of England on both the white and Muslim side. I've often said that the anti-asian racist reception people experienced in the 70s/80s lay the ground for excessive insularity. The neo-nazi thing is one to watch, we not only have the homegrown nazis here now but also ones from Europe mainland such as Poland.

The fanatics of all worlds including Muslims seem to be getting out of control in the UK - however the rise of Hinduphobia and Islamophobia from Sikhs in this region appears to be far greater than other regions of the world as well.

The Hinduphobia stems from the events in Panjab in the 80s and not experiences here. The Islamophobia stems from interaction with mainly Pakistanis by Sikhs in the UK. Periodically there have been attacks on Sikhs and many people believe that Sikh girls have been targetted for casual sex and conversions. The main culprit here are Sikhs who haven't yet found a solid way of facilitating a strong identity amongst many youth.

I wonder if the culture of the UK in general is contributing to this, or if it is a spiral effect of reactionary violence founded in the heart of the Colonial Masters.

I belive that white supremacy plays its part in this mess myself, but so does Islamic fundamentalism.

[HSD*^]

firstly i dont think colonialism has much to do with it. if sikhs were looking for revenge for what happened during the 19th century, we would have renamed London to Lahore or something. i think it stems more from class and access to opportunity. in canada/america a kid has a good chance in life if he comes from a half-decent background. in england, the amount of barriers are stifling. a few of my friends went to places like oxford/camb/other posh places for uni, and they couldnt beleive how some of the posh kids grew up and what things they could do. mind you, the 3rd point you made is spot on, everyone wants to split themselves more and more in this country.

[Guest fordcapri]

The government deserves all it gets. Firstly it allowed all those rag tag Muslim groups from all over the world to set up shop here and even when other European countries warned them that it was dangerous they used the so-called British tradition of tolerance as an excuse. When 9/11 and especially 7/7 happened when Muslims expected to be challenged about all the extremists that had taken root in their communities the government sent out pygmies like Ruth Kelly running up to Muslim areas like Bradford, Leeds and Blackburn to 'listen' to the grievances of the Muslims!! It then started an appeasement policy by giving millions to organisations working to 'de-radicalise' Muslims or prevent 'radicalisation'. These organisations like the ones featured in the Panorama programme must be laughing their heads off. How doesn't want free money after all! These kinds of things don't work as can be seen from the fact that since 7/7 over 4000 Muslims are under active monitoring by the security services. The government is also paying for roadshows and exhibitions run by Muslims which are nothing short of promotion of Islam. There is now a ridiculous TV campaign paid for by the taxpayer which will show ads on Pakistan TV using Muslim role models from the UK basically saying that the UK isn't anti-Islam and please don't attack us! Only last week the government refused entry to a member of the European Parliament who was to show his film called Fitna about the link between the Quran and terrorism in the house of Lords! This was due to the fact that a Muslim member of the house of Lords had threatened to bring 10,000 angry Muslims to prevent a screening of the film!

So what lesson does this idiotic policy of the government give to the Muslims? That they should stop bombing Britain or that if they keep their threats going the government will capitulate before them? Who said terrorism doesn't work?

Top Post Sir thums up

[HSD*^]

wjkk wjkf

When I refer to colonialism, I mean the ideology of it. The divide and conquer, assertion of superiority and dominance.

America and Canada, dont necessarily have equal opportunity. However, it may be the case we have better access. What I fear is that as Canada specifically becomes increasingly capitalist, right wing, conservative, that this will slowly fade away. (well not realy, but the politicial system is set up so that it isn't representative of the vote)

Actually, this reminds me of a study I did in undergrad. What appears to be taking place is something called Interpersonal Violence. Where the people are subjected to so much oppression or violence from the state by lack of access to goods or education, etc that they become frustrated.

However, those that oppress them and cause suffering are so far away and impossible to touch, that the anger and frustration in the oppressed manifests itself in other ways.

It can be numerous ways, within groups (punjabi can see this in domestic and drug abuse) or between groups. Essentially minorities become crabs in a bucket pulling each other down to get to the top - aspiring to have what the ruling class has.

Do you think this could partly explain what is going on? Not just with Sikhs or Muslims, but in general?

In a nutshell, yes. The standard of living in canada and america generally is far ahead of britains. coupled with the lack of access to the best jobs, old boy networks, over-crowding, moves to balkanisation/ghettoes etc. it is quite gloomy. having said that, i also think this is the way things have always been. you think that british people (white/sikh/muslim) are more militant, but at the same time many people over here think canadians are softies regardless of their colour/race. maybe its just the way things are.

[saint-soldier]

damm so many anti muslim and anti quran replies here, whats is this sikh version of kkk??????

[dalsingh101]

Singhvelli and the rest of the brothers

You've all flagged interesting and pertinant issues. Just to add a few more perspectives to the debate:

Judgment based on the history I have been able to collect - make me believe that Islam was Imperialist from the onset, but breakaway groups seemed to have resisted this like Sufis - which is why they aren't looked upon so nicely. The difference is, Islam is openly expansionist, "whitey" isn't.

I totally disagree. "Whitey" is as expanionist as Islam. Maybe not openly but they are. By whitey I mean mainly Anglo-Saxon values. They have dominated the globe politically and culturally for some time. What you can say is that globally WASPism (White Anglo-Saxon Protestantism) seems to be waning and Islamist values are on the rise. I see a clear link between the two which lately seem to have formed a symbiotic relationship.

The issue has two important aspects we should consider. The first is the realisation that the west or "whitey" as some people are calling it, depends on having a nemesis. In my time, prior to Islam it was the Soviet block. When this disintegrated they chose a new nemesis. Islam.

Another important consideraton is the old relationship between Islam and the West. This is old and deep. Us Sikhs are largely ignornant of this. Whereas in the Panjab our ancestors managed to bring it to bring Islamic fanaticism to its knees between 1699 and 1799, Europe had centuries of being terrorised by this threat. I often wonder if this impinges in the western/pseudoChristian white mind?

I also think that the UK is different from the "New World" because of the existence of an ancient accepted "old boys" network. This does stem from the old feudal history of the place. The crux of the matter is that the old boys network or the ruling classes have a different visions or perspectives. As far as they are concerned immigrants are just alternative cheap labour which actually benefits them whilst to the working classes, they are the cause of poverty and unwanted change.

The sad thing is that instead of pulling up teir leaders, racist white working class folk blame the immigrants. This, in my opinion, also clearly highlights the centuries old conditioning between the British classes where the working class rarely trouble those above and resort to scapegoating.

Given that we are apparently on the brink of a "depression" it will be interesting to see how things play out in the UK.

[HSD*^]

it is interesting how in britain we divide down racial/belief lines, yet in canada they dont. like dalsingh said it may have something to do with the class system, coupled with the 'isolated island' mentality.