Reply To Harinder On Topic Vishnu Avtar Or Gurmukh Sikhs

[N30S1NGH]

This thread is only to reply back to the topic opened by harinder singh, if they feel they can close this topic as my intentions is to only reply to the topic which was opened by harinder singh on this subject..

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There are some people on this forum who try to equate Vishnu Avataars like Ram and Krishan with Guru Sahiban. This is HUGE NINDIYA. Leave aside Satguru, even the Gurmukh Sikhs of Satguru are WAY ABOVE Ram and Krishan.

Let Gurbani do the faisslaa. The pankitis I am posting are simple and easy to understand and dont need any deep vichaar.

http://www.sridasam....ction=Page&p=99

ਜਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹੁਇ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਏ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਖਾਪਿਓ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਘਾਏ ॥੨੮॥

जिते राम से क्रिसन हुइ बिसन आए ॥ तितिओ काल खापिओ न ते काल घाए ॥२८॥

All the incarnations of Vishnu like Rama and Krishan were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him. 28.

http://www.sikhitoth...ID=G&PageNo=125

gurmuiK mrY n kwlu n Kwey gurmuiK sic smwvixAw ]2]

guramukh marai n kaal n khaaeae guramukh sach samaavaniaa ||2||

The Gurmukhs do not die; they are not consumed by death. The Gurmukhs are absorbed in the True Lord. ||2||

Your first quotation of gurbani is talking about physical body of these avtars and second quotation of gurbani talks about inner state of being, comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges.

I like to quote ms514 post on other thread as it sum it up very well in other thread-

AHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

I am going to go out on a limb here and make a possible moorakh out of myself.

Perhaps the Shabad is stating that worship of the body, the incarnation, the human incarnation of the Avatars is false?

As the body form is subject to the ravages of time and mortality, why worship that saroop?

Perhaps it is implying that the finite incarnations should not be worshipped themselves, but rather the infinite Almighty itself who is manifest in them from time to time (NOT taking birth, but rather being openly revealed in them)? The falsity may be to begin to lose the distinction that the Almighty is much more than the avatar that manifests the Almighty and to start to worship the avatar as the totality of Almighty? Even in the Bhagavad Gita, Sri Krishna alludes to the fact that the Almighty is speaking, not his self personality. So he was projecting forth the Dharam of that Yug through Sri Krishna. But people instead started to worship Sri Krishna instead and prayed to Sri Krishna instead, losing the concept of the One Almighty?

Sorry for mistakes.

Ok now, raja janak is considered Ansa avtar (Read Sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale work on japji sahib), ansa avtar is incarnation of one attribute of Vahiguroo through deity.

Raja Janak himself is been called gurmukh by bhai sahib bhai gurdas ji. Shabad below. Here gurbani is labeling raja janak as Gurmukh which is Ansa Avtar, just incarnation of one attribute of vahiguroo through deity which sort of debunks of theory.

http://www.searchgur...pauri=5&vaar=10

ਭਗਤੁ ਵਡਾ ਰਾਜਾ ਜਨਕੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਚਿ ਉਦਾਸੀ ।

bhagatu vadaa raajaa janaku hai guramukhi maaiaa vichi udaasee|

King Janak was a great saint who amidst maya remained indifferent to it.

bhagtu vaḍā rājā janku hai gurmukhi māiā vici udāsī .

Line 1 ਦੇਵ ਲੋਕ ਨੋ ਚਲਿਆ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬੂ ਸਭਾ ਸੁਖਵਾਸੀ ।

dayv|ok no chaliaa gan gandharaboo sabhaa sukhavaasee|

Along with gans and gandharvs (calestial musicians) he went to the abode of the gods.

dēv lōk nō chliā gaṇ gandhrabū sabhā sukhvāsī .

Line 2 ਜਮਪੁਰਿ ਗਇਆ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਸੁਣਿ ਵਿਲਲਾਵਿਨਿ ਜੀਅ ਨਰਕ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ।

jamapuri gaiaa pukaar suni vilalaavini jeea narak nivaasee|

From there, he, hearing the cries of inhabitants of hell, went to them.

jampuri gaiā pukār suṇi villāvini jīa narak nivāsī .

Line 3 ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਨੋ ਆਖਿਓਨੁ ਸਭਨਾ ਦੀ ਕਰਿ ਬੰਦ ਖਲਾਸੀ ।

dharam raai no aakhiaonu sabhanaa dee kari band khalaasee|

He asked the god of death, Dharamrai, to relieve all their suffering.

dharam rāi nō ākhiōnu sabhanā dī kari band khalāsī .

Line 4 ਕਰੇ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਧਰਮਰਾਇ ਹਉ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ।

karay baynatee dharamaraai hau sayvaku tdaakuru abinaasee|

Hearing this, the god of death told him he was a mere servant of the eternal Lord (and without His orders he could not liberate them).

karē bēntī dharmarāi hau sēvku ṭhākuru abināsī .

Line 5 ਗਹਿਣੇ ਧਰਿਓਨੁ ਇਕੁ ਨਾਉ ਪਾਪਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਰਜਾਸੀ ।

gahinay dhariaonu iku naau paapaa naali karai nirajaasee|

Janak offered a part of his devotion and remembrance of the name of the Lord.

gahiṇē dhariōnu iku nāu pāpā nāli karai nirjāsī .

Line 6 ਪਾਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਪੁ ਨ ਪੁਜਨੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਉ ਅਤੁਲ ਨ ਤੁਲਾਸੀ ।

paasangi paapu n pujanee guramukhi naau atul n tulaasee|

All the sins of hell were found not equal even to the counterweight of balance.

pāsṅgi pāpu na pujnī gurmukhi nāu atul na tulāsī .

Line 7 ਨਰਕਹੁ ਛੁਟੇ ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਕਟੀ ਗਲਹੁੰ ਸਿਲਕ ਜਮ ਫਾਸੀ ।

narakahu chhutay jeea jant katee galahun silak jam dhaasee|

In fact no balance can weigh the fruits of recitation and remembrance of the Lords name by the gurmukh.

narkahu chuṭē jīa jant kaṭī galhuṃ silak jam phāsī .

Line 8 ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨਾਵੈ ਦੀ ਦਾਸੀ ॥੫॥

mukati jugati naavai dee daasee ॥5॥

All the creatures got liberated from hell and the noose of death was cut. Liberation and the technique of attaining it are the servants of the name of the Lord.

mukti jugti nāvai dī dāsī ॥5॥

Also according to damdami taksal - sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale which aligns with other puratan sampardas, ram krishan were puran hari avtar belong to same avtar category of guru sahib. However with less kala, guru sahib have limitless kala but ram and krishan have limited kala. Sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale have written very bluntly on this, here is an translations directly from the japji sahib teeka written by sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale, thanks to kam1825.

this is the following that i have written. i am currently in the process of writing a complete translation of the Sri Jap Ji Sahib. The following is a start of the Japji Sahib in the book

One day while Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji were holding a congregation one of the Sikhs asked “What type of incarnation was the first Sikh Guru, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and were they independent and complete?â€

According to Hindu belief there are many types of incarnations but for God there are six. These are the following; -

- Ansa Avtar

- Avesha Avtar

- Nit Avtar

- Namitak Avtar

- Pooran Avtar

- Pooran Tam Avtar

To this question Guru Gobind Singh Ji answered the following; -

1) Ansa Avtar is an incarnation of the Lord in the form of a righteous king who rules the people of his kingdom in accordance to the will of God. The people of the kingdom revere their ruler as God

2) Avesha Avtar is an incarnation or a divine form of God, which appears in order to please its devotee such as that of a statue drinking milk from Bhagat Namdev Ji. It is also the form of Parasram who was born without divine powers but acquired them later on in his life through devotion to God.

3) Nit Avtar is the form of God as a saint on earth. These are Sants, Mahapurkh, Brahmgiani, etc.

4) Namitak Avtar is the form of God that was assumed by Narsingh and Bawan. Narsingh came to the earth in order to protect his devotee Prahlad while Bawan came in order to deceive King Bali. After both had done their respected tasks they went back to heaven and never actually took birth on the earth.

5) Pooran Avtar is the incarnation that has 16 divine attributes and characteristics. Only Krishna has been born of this form.

6) Pooran Tam Avtar is regarded as that of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji as they came to the earth with the same powers as they had in heaven as the supreme Lord. They also came into the world already with knowledge and did not need to find any teachers, as they were already the one true master.

* According to Bhindra Samparda of Damdami Taksal the six avtars differ. They are written and explained below. These are the following; -

- Ansa Avtar

- Avesha Avtar

- Kalaa Avtar

- Nit Avtar

- Namit Avtar

- Pooran Avtar

To this question Guru Gobind Singh Ji answered the following; -

1) Ansa Avtar is an incarnation of the Lord in the form of a righteous king who rules the people of his kingdom in accordance to the will of God. They treat all of the people of their kingdom as if they were their own children and care for them as a father would do for his offspring. An example of this type of incarnation is that of King Manu or King Prithu or King Janak.

2) Avesha Avtar is an incarnation or a divine form of God. This is a form of God, which is initially born or created without any powers however through the love devotion and meditation of the Lords name that individual gains powers. An example of this incarnation is one of Vishnu’s incarnation by the name Parasram. When he was initially born he had no powers but through the worship of God he gained spiritual powers.

3) Kalaa Avtar is an incarnation in which for the sake of the world or for a certain need have some types of powers. Such as Vishnu’s first two Avtars of Mach and Kach. In the form of Mach Avtar, which was an incarnation in the form of a fish, he had two powers in order to destroy the demon known and Sankhasar and save the Vedas from the depth of the sea. In the form of the Kach Avtar , which was the incarnation in the form of a tortoise, he had two powers out of the sixteen so that he could balance the Sumer Mountain on his back so that the ocean could be churned. These incarnations are distinct to the rest of the people of the world and are known as Kalaa Avtars.

4) Nit Avtar is the form of God as a saint on earth. These are Sants, Mahapurkh, Brahmgiani, etc. They come to the earth in order to spread the conventional rules, traditions and practices of the meditation of God to the people

5) Namit Avtar is an incarnation, which comes to the earth in order to complete a certain task, and following this disappears. An example of this is when the devotee of God by the name of Prahlad was in danger Vishnu assumed the form of Narsingh and came to protect him. Vishnu also assume the form of Bavan Avtar in order to trick King Bali into giving the control of the Heavens and Earth back to the demi gods. Following both of the incarnations completing their specific tasks they disappeared.

6) Pooran Avtar is the incarnation of Sri Krishna and Sri Ram Chandar out of the 24 incarnations of Vishnu. Sri Ram Chandar had 14 of the 16 powers while Sri Krishna possessed all 16 powers.

The sixteen powers or qualities possessed by the incarnations are the following; -

Knowledge, Attention, Virtuous Acts, Persistence, Moderation, Faith, Charity, Skill, Meditation, Loving Acts, Control over Passion, Spiritualism, Mercy, Solemn Promise, Intelligence and a Clear Mind.

There are another sixteen powers or qualities possessed by the incarnations which are written about. These are the following; -

Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Sky, Vital Air for Breathing, Organs, Name of God, Actions, Faith, Place in Society, Devotion, Incantation, Desire, Semen and Physique

After explaining this the congregation asked, “Are Guru Nanak Dev Ji the same as the Pooran Avtar or do they not possess all of the qualities?â€

Guru Gobind Singh Ji replied, “Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not lack any of the qualities. They however were greater for five reasons.â€

to be continued

continued from the last

Guru Gobind Singh Ji went on to explain the five qualities.

1) Shakti – This means powers.

Sri Ram Chandar showed his powers to his mother Kashuliya. When his mother went to pray to the goddess at that point Sri Ram Chandar replaced the image of the goddess with himself to show her his powers.

Sri Krishna also showed his powers to his mother Devki. He pretended to eat some dirt so when she forced him to open his mouth and see what he had eaten he showed that he had the whole of creation in his mouth. She saw the complete universe. During the Mahabharat war Sri Krishna showed his disciple Arjan a divine form of himself called the Vairat Saroop (explained further on).

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were born in the village of Talwandi and at that moment they showed their mother Mata Tripta Ji and aunt their miracle. At the ambrosial hour all of the demi gods came to worship Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. They sat Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji on a throne and started to worship them and bow to them. They rubbed sandalwood into the skin of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and placed a garland of flowers around their neck. They then made a supplication to Guru Nanak Dev Ji and said, “O protector of the meek and true king. You are the transcendent formless being. You have taken this form and come to the world in order to save the world and all of humanity. You are also the protector of all of the demi gods.†In this way the demi gods were making supplications to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. At that point Mata Tripta awoke and wondered who was around her son and revering him? At that point all of the demi gods disappeared. She saw that her son had marks of saffron and sandalwood all over him and on his forehead and the smell of the sandalwood was overwhelming. At that point Mata Tripta Ji gained full faith that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was indeed the incarnation of the divine Lord. But at that moment in order to conceal the powers of Guru Nanak Dev Ji he covered his mothers mind in the veil of illusion, which is called Maya. Just as a child cries in order to get milk that is what Guru Nanak Dev Ji did, by doing so Mata Tripta Ji forgot what had just occurred and became attached to her child. For this reason they are no less then Sri Ram Chandar and Sri Krishna in the amount of power they possess.

They are greater however due to other miracles. Whilst being asleep a cobra provided Guru Nanak Dev Ji with shade. Another occasion the shade of a tree covered them with shade even though the shade was in a different direction to all the others. They replenished a field with its entire crop when cows had eaten all of the harvest. In Medina the grave of the Islamic prophet paid their salutations to Guru Nanak Dev Ji. In Mecca the Kabba turned in the direction that Guru Nanak Dev Ji faced their feet. It is still in the direction that Guru Nanak Dev Ji had their feet pointing. Guru Nanak Dev Ji made the soap nuts on a tree they were sitting under taste sweet and are still to this day and can be eaten. Guru Nanak Dev Ji took all of the powers away from the Sidhs and then later returned them. Guru Nanak Dev Ji imprinted their palm print in a rock that was being hurled at them. Guru Nanak Dev Ji parted rivers and mountains in order to gain access to the other side when travelling. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was able to walk on water as if it was land. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was able to show a person thousands of heavens and underworlds in a second. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was able to make a boiling cauldron turn cold in a second. These are but a few examples of how great Guru Nanak Dev Ji were and how their powers were superior.

The other incarnations used their powers to increase their popularity and greatness. Guru Nanak Dev Ji used their powers in order to make other people learn the correct path and believe in one God. They did not do it in order to make them more popular.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji showed their powers in order to save others and to destroy their ego. In order to destroy Vali Kandhari’s ego they took his water from him. They prevented Gorakh Nath from having the strength to pick up a piece of wheat to destroy their ego.

For these reasons Guru Nanak Dev Ji have an endless amount of powers. They have no powers less then any other incarnations but have more and are greater. They are the holders of great power.

Sri Krishna was the possessor of 16 powers but Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji had an infinite number of powers and was the incarnation of the divine Lord.

2) Viaktee – This is the name for the form of a being.

The form of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is greater then that of all of the other incarnations. Throughout the whole life of Sri Ram Chandar’s life and Sri Krishna’s life they never grew any facial hair. During the youthful years of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s life when they had no facial hair we can say that there form was equal to the other incarnations. Then a beautiful beard grew on the form of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji so that other saints would recognise them and their form became greater.

In the treta age when Sri Ram Chandar went to marry Sita they left Ayodhiya to go to Janakpur in order to meet her. All of the of the royal maidens were enchanted by the beauty of Sri Ram Chandar. Due to this Sri Ram Chandar told them that he would satisfy their needs in the Dwaper age.

In the Dwaper age the royal maidens assumed the form of the Gopis and Sri Krishna tended to their physical and sexual needs.

Due to the forms of both Sri Ram Chandar and Sri Krishna they caused lust with the opposite sex and could not eradicate this cardinal sin.

When Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to the area of Sangla Deep, which is now referred to as Sri Lanka all of the beautiful women tried to enchant Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji through the power of the word of God destroyed the lust that was in the heart of the beautiful women. By singing the gospel of the Lord and saying the name of God they were able to bring peace to the hearts of the beautiful women. They no longer lusted and by seeing the Guru they were forever in bliss and were at peace.

Due to being able to dispel the lust in others the form of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was greater then that of the other incarnations.

3) Pragya – This is the name of a person’s knowledge of God and the name of God.

Sri Ram Chandar made Rishi Vashisht their spiritual master. They spent 68 days with them in which they learned the Vashisht Puran in order to gain the divine knowledge of God. He then spent 8 days with Rishi Vishwamitar who he adopted as his master in martial arts from who they learned the knowledge of weapons.

Sri Krishna made Rishi Darbasha their spiritual master. They spent 8 days with then in which they learned the scriptures in order to gain the divine knowledge of God. He then spent 64 days with Rishi Sandeepan who he adopted as his master in martial arts from who they learned the knowledge of weapons.

The father of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Baba Kaliyan Chand (Kalu Ji) took their son to the teacher Gopal Pandhay in order to study. They went on the first day in accordance to what his parents wanted and learned the alphabet. The second day they went they just remained silent. Even when Gopal Pandhay told him to read Guru Nanak Dev Ji ignored him. Gopal Pandhay then asked, “All of the other children are reading and learning. Why are you not doing the same?†Guru Nanak Dev Ji said, “ All these things that you are teaching can be erased. One should learn those things that stay with an individual.†The teacher thought to himself and said to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, “I am unable to teach this to you, I only know how to teach mathematics and basic language. With your grace please tell us of this knowledge you want to be taught.â€

Guru Nanak Dev Ji in answer to this sang the word of God. After hearing this divine hymn Gopal Pandhay was reassured about what Guru Ji wanted to hear and it was about the divine Lord. By giving this short discourse Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji exalted and delighted Gopal Pandhay.

On the third day when Baba Kaliyan Chand came to the school with Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, they asked Gopal Pandhay to teach their son.

Gopal Pandhay said, “ Your son is the creator of all of the knowledge. Do not worry about him learning. They are not here to learn but will teach others instead.â€

Due to this Baba Kaliyan Chand took Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Mulla Noor Deen in order to learn Farsi. Again on their first day Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji said a hymn, which was a divine message from God.

By doing this Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught the people they were supposed to learn from rather then gaining knowledge from their teachings. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave the Mulla divine knowledge and exalted them.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji never made any person their spiritual master. Rather the people they were sent to learn from became their disciples and accepted Guru Nanak Dev Ji as their spiritual master.

The other incarnations for a small number of days adopted spiritual masters in order to gain knowledge. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was unique in the way that they already had divine knowledge and never needed to learn from another.

Unlike the other incarnations Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji never had to learn the knowledge of weapons. They used the word of God as a metaphysical weapon to destroy the vices of other people. Due to the greater knowledge of the word of God and using it as a weapon Guru Nanak Dev Ji were greater then any other incarnation. Many philosophers and Sikh writers do suggest that they did have complete knowledge of weapons but never used them. They passed this knowledge onto one of their devotees by the name of Baba Buddha Ji to teach the Sikhs when they needed it. Baba Buddha Ji were later the teacher of marital arts to the sixth Sikh Guru, Sri Guru Hargobind Ji.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not have less intelligence then that of the other incarnations but more. The intelligence that they possessed was infinite and greater then all others. No other incarnation even came close to the intelligence and knowledge possessed by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

to be continued

continued from the last

4) Kartab – This is ones show of skill.

In the age of Treta the life of Sri Ram Chandar lasted for 10,000 years. During that time the only time they showed their skill when they were exiled for 14 years. During that time Ravan kidnapped the wife of Sri Ram Chandar. Due to this Ram and Ravan waged war against each other. Ram killed the demon Ravan and freed his wife Sita and the other demi gods that had been captured. After killing Ravan, Ram appointed Bhabhikhan as the new ruler of Sri Lanka. After the 14 years of exile he went back to rule the kingdom of Ayodhiya. Whilst he was ruling he made a promise that no child should die before their mother and father. After making this promise a son of a Brahman who lived in Ayodhiya died. The Brahman came to Sri Ram Chandar and accused him of being a liar. He stated that Sri Ram Chandar had no power as the promise that he made failed. He said if he did have the power then he should make his son come back to life.

Sri Ram Chandar asked the Brahman why this child had died. He was told it was due to a person of a low caste had started to meditate in the jungle, he stated this was the only reason why the child had died.

At that time a male of the low caste by the name of Sanboock was hung upside down in a well meditating on the Lord. Sri Ram Chandar went to that location and beheaded Sanboock and brought the son of the Brahman back to life. This account is written about in both the Balmik Ramayan and the Sri Dasam Granth.

By accident Sri Ram Chandar fought against his sons Love and Kush. His sons injured or killed his entire army including Sri Ram Chandar. Only due to the goodness of Sita he was brought back to life. Still Sri Ram Chandar passed the reign of the kingdom over to his two sons. This was due to his attachment with his family.

Sri Krishna after killing Kans he placed his maternal grandfather named Ugarsain on the throne to rule the kingdom. This showed his attachment to his family.

However Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji for the first 28 years stayed in the city of Sultanpur and worked in the granary. After doing this they went into the Beas River and went to heaven there. Here they adopted God as their only spiritual master. They were given the root incantation here and following which saved all of humanity with the knowledge of the Lord. They travelled far and wide doing this. They did not speak of any other demi god or prophet other then God.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not show any attachment to their sons but showed may feats of skill. Instead of installing one of their sons in their position they appointed one of their disciples.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji met many evil kings such as Devloot, Lajvarad and Babur. Rather then killing them they gave them knowledge in order to make them understand the message of God and to help humanity. The demon Kauda, the thieves Bhumai and Sajjan were made to repent what they were doing and became saints. They made all the evil people good with the teachings they imparted. They saw no difference between social class, gender, age, etc and imparted the same message to all the people of the world.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in order to avoid many troubles showed much skill.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not show any less skill then any other incarnation. They actually showed greater skill then all others.

5) Aayoo – these are acts performed for others good.

Sri Ram Chandar lived for 10,000 years. Due to listening to the Brahmans they killed a person of a low caste. They also handed the reign of the land to his two sons.

Sri Krishna lived for 1,000 years. He believed Jadva to be an egotistical person due to this he got Rishi Darbasha to curse him so that he would die.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a king and a saint at the same time. In order to bring any other being back to life they never killed another. By bringing that person back to life they would give them the name of God so that they could save and bring back to life many other people.

This is the same with the 3rd, 5th, 9th and 10th Sikh Guru’s. The third Guru, Sri Guru Amar Das Ji whilst the spiritual master of the Sikhs for 22 years no one died in the village of Gobindwal. No matter if old or young no one died during the 22 years that Sri Guru Amar Das Ji was in the city of Gobindwal. No one was ill as well. This showed that the Guru’s of the Sikhs were greater then that of the incarnations.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji lived for 70 years and during that time travelled more then Sri Ram Chandar and Sri Krishna did. Sri Ram Chandar and Sri Krishna never travelled further then Indian and Sri Lanka. Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to Kashmir, Nepal, Bhutan, China, Tibet, Sikam, Burma, Africa, Arabia, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Russia. They travelled to these countries and more all by foot. In the ballads written by Bhai Gurdas Ji it states the Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji actually travelled the whole world and met all the people of all nations. Guru Nanak Dev Ji saved that many souls that they cannot all be accounted for.

In such a small life Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji helped an infinite number of people. They got the root incantation from heaven and spread it through the seven lands of India and all of the continents throughout the world. They taught all the people to meditate on the name of the one true Lord. They started the faith of Sikhism. They created the true congregation. They made other people meditate on the Lord.

As of all of the good things that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji did during such a short span of life none of the other incarnation did.

The examples show that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not lack any Shakti, Viaktee, Pragya, Kartab and Aayoo considering they had a shorter life then any of the other incarnations. If they are an incarnation they cannot be seen as any less of an incarnation then a Pooran Avtar. If they are a Pooran Avtar they are not like Vishnu’s incarnations of Sri Ram Chandar or Sri Krishna. Sri Ram Chandar possessed 14 divine qualities while Sri Krishna possessed 16 divine qualities. However in the age of Kaljug having 16 divine qualities was not sufficient. For this reason Guru Nanak Dev Ji possessed an infinite number of divine qualities. This made Guru Nanak Dev Ji greater then the two greatest incarnations of Vishnu. Guru Nanak Dev Ji were themselves God incarnated on the earth and not a demi god.

[N30S1NGH]

continued from the last

The congregation heard this and asked Guru Gobind Singh Ji, “ We believe that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji are a divine incarnation and a complete one. But tell us what authenticity you have to say that they are complete?â€

Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, “There are three types of authenticity that I can give you. They are the Vedic authenticity, Lokik authenticity and Svai authenticity.â€

Guru Gobind Singh Ji went on to explain all three.

1) Vedic authenticity. This is where the proof of the incarnation is written about in the scriptures.

Examples of this are written about in the Gopal Tapnee Upanishad, Surtee Parmaan & the Bhagvat Da Parmaan.

Another example to show that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji are commonly regarded as God is written about in the Bhavishat Puran. Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s arrival on earth was predicted by Rishi Ved Vyas who wrote in the Bhavishat Puran 12 saloks in the 24th Adhayi (stanza). In this text it is written that in the Dark Age Guru Nanak Dev Ji will be the saviour of the world. These can be found from salok 33 to 44.

2) Lokik authenticity. This is where people from the period of time of the Guru’s wrote their own facts about the messengers of God.

An example of this is the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji who state that Guru Nanak Dev Ji are themselves God incarnate. They state this in // 1 stanza 23, // 28 stanza 1 and // 38 stanza 20.

The bhatts (bards) also wrote in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji also state that Guru Nanak Dev Ji were God themselves incarnate.

Without Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji along with their other forms as Guru’s including with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, there would never have been another incarnation or prophet who was equal to God. In the Bihangam Marg book and the Janam Sakhi it states that when Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were in heaven God said to them, “Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji I am the transcendent God and you are the non transcendent God. Between us and yourself there is no difference.â€

This story again shows that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the complete incarnation of God and no other.

3) Svai authenticity. This is the authenticity written by the following Gurus after Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Examples of this are in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where the other Guru’s have stated Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji are God.

The three authenticities show that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were in fact God and not an incarnation of any demi god. They were a complete incarnation.

Sri Ram Chandar were an incarnation of power and the ideal way of life. They were an incarnation attributed to truth.

Sri Krishna were an incarnation where they were attributed to passion and royalty. They played the role of the king and were filled with passion. Sri Krishna married 16,108 Gopis.

Parasram was an incarnation where they were attributed to the darkness and evil. This is due to him destroying the social class of the Kashatris 21 times during his life.

All three of these are incarnations of the demi god Vishnu and possessed all the three main virtues.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji possessed all of the virtues but were the form of God.

In the first age the incarnations came to look after all of humanity and creation. They destroyed their enemies. In the Bhagvat Gita and the Sri Dasam Granth it is written that at the end of the Dark Age the incarnation of Kalki will appear to destroy the wicked people. When the time is right that incarnation will appear. However Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the 6th and 10th form in order to protect righteousness they had to destroy an endless number of wicked people. Due to their deeds you can still see Hindus in India today, as without the Sikh Guru’s no Hindus would have survived. There is no doubt to the incarnation of the Sikh Gurus. The amount of teachings that the Gurus gave about religion and faith was far more then any other persons have done. No matter how many knowledgeable people there are, devotees of the lord and teachers they will never be equal to the Lord himself.

Many knowledgeable people have come to the world and shared their knowledge but have only done so with a certain social group. The message that was also given is only suitable for that group. The message of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is for all of mankind. Those people who doubt the divine incarnation of God shall be destroyed.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were the incarnation of God. They were the spiritual master of the world. From the beginning they were the true spiritual master.

continued from the last

The congregation heard this and asked Guru Gobind Singh Ji, “ We believe that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji are a divine incarnation and a complete one. But tell us what authenticity you have to say that they are complete?â€

Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, “There are three types of authenticity that I can give you. They are the Vedic authenticity, Lokik authenticity and Svai authenticity.â€

Guru Gobind Singh Ji went on to explain all three.

1) Vedic authenticity. This is where the proof of the incarnation is written about in the scriptures.

Examples of this are written about in the Gopal Tapnee Upanishad, Surtee Parmaan & the Bhagvat Da Parmaan.

Another example to show that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji are commonly regarded as God is written about in the Bhavishat Puran. Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s arrival on earth was predicted by Rishi Ved Vyas who wrote in the Bhavishat Puran 12 saloks in the 24th Adhayi (stanza). In this text it is written that in the Dark Age Guru Nanak Dev Ji will be the saviour of the world. These can be found from salok 33 to 44.

2) Lokik authenticity. This is where people from the period of time of the Guru’s wrote their own facts about the messengers of God.

An example of this is the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji who state that Guru Nanak Dev Ji are themselves God incarnate. They state this in // 1 stanza 23, // 28 stanza 1 and // 38 stanza 20.

The bhatts (bards) also wrote in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji also state that Guru Nanak Dev Ji were God themselves incarnate.

Without Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji along with their other forms as Guru’s including with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, there would never have been another incarnation or prophet who was equal to God. In the Bihangam Marg book and the Janam Sakhi it states that when Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were in heaven God said to them, “Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji I am the transcendent God and you are the non transcendent God. Between us and yourself there is no difference.â€

This story again shows that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the complete incarnation of God and no other.

3) Svai authenticity. This is the authenticity written by the following Gurus after Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Examples of this are in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where the other Guru’s have stated Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji are God.

The three authenticities show that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were in fact God and not an incarnation of any demi god. They were a complete incarnation.

Sri Ram Chandar were an incarnation of power and the ideal way of life. They were an incarnation attributed to truth.

Sri Krishna were an incarnation where they were attributed to passion and royalty. They played the role of the king and were filled with passion. Sri Krishna married 16,108 Gopis.

Parasram was an incarnation where they were attributed to the darkness and evil. This is due to him destroying the social class of the Kashatris 21 times during his life.

All three of these are incarnations of the demi god Vishnu and possessed all the three main virtues.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji possessed all of the virtues but were the form of God.

In the first age the incarnations came to look after all of humanity and creation. They destroyed their enemies. In the Bhagvat Gita and the Sri Dasam Granth it is written that at the end of the Dark Age the incarnation of Kalki will appear to destroy the wicked people. When the time is right that incarnation will appear. However Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the 6th and 10th form in order to protect righteousness they had to destroy an endless number of wicked people. Due to their deeds you can still see Hindus in India today, as without the Sikh Guru’s no Hindus would have survived. There is no doubt to the incarnation of the Sikh Gurus. The amount of teachings that the Gurus gave about religion and faith was far more then any other persons have done. No matter how many knowledgeable people there are, devotees of the lord and teachers they will never be equal to the Lord himself.

Many knowledgeable people have come to the world and shared their knowledge but have only done so with a certain social group. The message that was also given is only suitable for that group. The message of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is for all of mankind. Those people who doubt the divine incarnation of God shall be destroyed.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were the incarnation of God. They were the spiritual master of the world. From the beginning they were the true spiritual master.

hopefully that will answer the question posed on this thread.

[Into the Light]

^^^ WOW

Thanks for sharing this N30SINGH Jee...i can't wait for Kam Bhajee to release the complete book that translates Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee's arth of Japjee Sahib in English.

[Harinder_Singh]

Your first quotation of gurbani is talking about physical body of these avtars and second quotation of gurbani talks about inner state of being, comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges.

I like to quote ms514 post on other thread as it sum it up very well in other thread-

The first quotation is NOT about physical body, its about the jeev inside the body. Kaal means death and being accountable to DHARAM RAI.

True Gurmukhs japp Naam day and night and their lekhaa is torn and they dont have to face dharam rai.

Infact, Brahma, vishnu and Mahesh and subject to JAMMMMM.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਚੀਪਿਤ ਅੰਤ ਫਸੇ ਜਮ ਫਾਸਿ ਪਰੈਂਗੇ ॥

Now, dont u become Ram Rai and translate jamm as time. Jamm means JAMMM.

And yes, if u want to debate, please Quote Gurbani. Anything outside of Gurbani is subject to mistakes. I quoted Gurbani to prove Ram and Krishan were subject to Kaal.

[Harinder_Singh]

Here is more Gurbani for you :

http://www.sridasam....ion=Page&p=1348

ਕਹਾ ਭਯੋ ਜੋ ਆਨਿ ਜਗਤ ਮੈ ਦਸਕੁ ਅਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਘਾਏ ॥

कहा भयो जो आनि जगत मै दसकु असुर हरि घाए ॥

What then, if on coming into the world, one(Krishan) killed about ten demons;

ਅਧਿਕ ਪ੍ਰਪੰਚ ਦਿਖਾਇ ਸਭਨ ਕਹ ਆਪਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੧॥

अधिक प्रपंच दिखाइ सभन कह आपहि ब्रहमु कहाए ॥१॥

And displayed several phenomena to all and caused others to call Him Brahm (God).1.

ਭੰਜਨ ਗੜ੍ਹਨ ਸਮਰਥ ਸਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸੋ ਕਿਮ ਜਾਤ ਗਿਨਾਯੋ ॥

भंजन गड़्हन समरथ सदा प्रभ सो किम जात गिनायो ॥

How can He be called God, the Destroyer, the Creator, the Almighty and Eternal,

ਤਾ ਤੇ ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਅਸਿ ਕੋ ਘਾਇ ਬਚਾਇ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥੨॥

ता ते सरब काल के असि को घाइ बचाइ न आयो ॥२॥

Who could not save himself from the wound-causing sword of mighty Death.2.

ਕੈਸੇ ਤੋਹਿ ਤਾਰਿ ਹੈ ਸੁਨਿ ਜੜ ਆਪ ਡੁਬਯੋ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰ ॥

कैसे तोहि तारि है सुनि जड़ आप डुबयो भव सागर ॥

O fool ! listen, how can he cause you to cause the dreadful ocean of Sansara (world), when he himself is drowned in great ocean?

The tukk in bold CLEARLY TELLS that Krishan drowned in the world ocean and could not escape KAAL. He made people call him Brahm (God) which is HUGE SIN.

[Only five]

So N30Singh, by the Katha you presented, it is right to say that Krishna was not Waheguru. Like Gurbani tells us, so what if you have many powers and made many miracles. All of this is useless because the shakti is still Waheguru's and belongs to him. As the katha says, Krishna was given 16 powers and then we have Gurbani telling us that Krishna misused these powers. Which translates into Krishna himself made mistakes. Which would only further show Krishna is not Waheguru because Waheguru never makes mistakes, as he is the perfect being.

[Harinder_Singh]

Lets leave Krishan for a moment and lets take the example of Ragi Darshan.

Ragi Darshan did some good katha during the 80's. Many sikhs were inspired by his katha and chakked amrit and started doing bhagti. Kehar Singh and Beant Singh listened to the katha of Ragi Darshan and Beant Singh got motivated to send Evil Indira Gandhi to hell.

It was the power of Guru (Vaheguru) working that made Ragi Darshan do the katha those days.

But we all know how Ragi Darshan in the present times has sold out to GOI, how he did nindiya of Dashmesh Pita and has been excommunicated and isolated by the Panth.

Same way, Krishan had the power of God working through him when he did good things. But at some point in his life, he got egoistic, started have illicit relations with Gopis, made people worship him and finally DROWNED in the world ocean. (same as how Ragi Darshan will drown)

[kam1825]

Nice post Neo

Singh Ji is Vishnus avtars or Vishnu himself is condemned to such a fate, then someone should have told Bhagat Nam Dev Ji

ਸਾਤ ਘੜੀ ਜਬ ਬੀਤੀ ਸੁਣੀ ॥

saath gharree jab beethee sunee ||

Three hours passed,

3 Bhaira-o Saint Nam Dev

ਅਜਹੁ ਨ ਆਇਓ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥੧੪॥

ajahu n aaeiou thribhavan dhhanee ||14||

and even then, the Lord of the three worlds had not come. ||14||

3 Bhaira-o Saint Nam Dev

ਪਾਖੰਤਣ ਬਾਜ ਬਜਾਇਲਾ ॥

paakhanthan baaj bajaaeilaa ||

Playing on the instrument of the feathered wings,

3 Bhaira-o Saint Nam Dev

ਗਰੁੜ ਚੜ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਆਇਲਾ ॥੧੫॥

garurr charrhae gobindh aaeilaa ||15||

the Lord of the Universe came, mounted on the eagle garura. ||15||

4 Bhaira-o Saint Nam Dev

ਅਪਨੇ ਭਗਤ ਪਰਿ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲ ॥

apanae bhagath par kee prathipaal ||

He cherished His devotee,

4 Bhaira-o Saint Nam Dev

ਗਰੁੜ ਚੜ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਆਏ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥੧੬॥

garurr charrhae aaeae gopaal ||16||

and the Lord came, mounted on the eagle garura. ||16||

4 Bhaira-o Saint Nam Dev

ਕਹਹਿ ਤ ਧਰਣਿ ਇਕੋਡੀ ਕਰਉ ॥

kehehi th dhharan eikoddee karo ||

The Lord said to him, ""If you wish, I shall turn the earth sideways.

5 Bhaira-o Saint Nam Dev

ਕਹਹਿ ਤ ਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਊਪਰਿ ਧਰਉ ॥੧੭॥

kehehi th lae kar oopar dhharo ||17||

If you wish, I shall turn it upside down. ||17||

5 Bhaira-o Saint Nam Dev

ਕਹਹਿ ਤ ਮੁਈ ਗਊ ਦੇਉ ਜੀਆਇ ॥

kehehi th muee goo dhaeo jeeaae ||

If you wish, I shall bring the dead cow back to life.

5 Bhaira-o Saint Nam Dev

ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ਦੇਖੈ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥੧੮॥

sabh koee dhaekhai patheeaae ||18||

Everyone will see and be convinced.""||18||

Ang 1166 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

[Gurdaspuria E12]

mate (harinder singh) did u even read the post

its cleary stated that GURU sahib is the greatest because he was Waheguru and his qualities are infinte

while Krishna n Ram were limited to 16 n 15 qualities each

so wats the problem

he talks about the fallabilities of those two avtars agreeing with ur every point

yes everyone knows dat those avtars are subject to kal thats why he said that Ram lived for 10000 and Krishna for 1000 n dey still didnt achieve as much as each of the guru sahibs did because dey were not god.

[Harinder_Singh]

mate (harinder singh) did u even read the post

its cleary stated that GURU sahib is the greatest because he was Waheguru and his qualities are infinte

while Krishna n Ram were limited to 16 n 15 qualities each

so wats the problem

he talks about the fallabilities of those two avtars agreeing with ur every point

yes everyone knows dat those avtars are subject to kal thats why he said that Ram lived for 10000 and Krishna for 1000 n dey still didnt achieve as much as each of the guru sahibs did because dey were not god.

Mate (Gurdaspuriya), i read the post.

I know Guru Sahib is the GREATEST. What I am trying to say is that even a gurmukh sikh of Guru Ghar is superior to Krishan and Ram. Ram and Krishan are subject to kaal. KRISHAN DROWNED IN THE WORLD OCEAN.