Hindus Challenging Originality Of Sikhism

[chatanga]

These are excerpts form the original article which Bijla Singh has kindly provided a link for:

I have numbered them and will respond as such to each one, and everyone is welcome to provide their own opinions.

1. As we have seen from the lives of Guru Nanak Dev and the succeeding Gurus, the Sikh Teachings are averse to such type asceticism.

Ascetism WAS a respected practice in the yugs before Kalyug, but it was not given as much, if any validity in Kalyug as the lifetimes of humans has greatly reduced from the previous yugs. In Kalyug Grisht Dharam is given prominence. So Guru Ji in talking of Ascetism is only relevant for Kalyugi jeev

2. It will be observed that in the above account the womb has been described as a place, where on its heights, are regions of perpetual snow, where neither animals and birds nor even trees can live; only the winds, the Sidhas and the great Rishis are there.

Gurbani says that the womb contains fire, there is no mention of any ice anywhere.

3. Hem Kunt Mountain is situated North of Hardwar Rikhikesh in Utar Pradesh State at a height of more than 14,000 feet above sea level. The area remains snow bound for more than eight months in a year. Nothing grows there and no one ever lived there. Raja Pandu did not meditate on God there, but lived in the jungle and had sexual union (yog) with his wife, which the Guru referred. Raja Pandu was not a saint, who meditated on God in these mountaneous area.

Actually, if you read the sanskrit epics, you will find stories of men doig tapysa in all sorts of extreme weather conditions, going for months and years without food, due to thier practice of pranayam jog. Even there are stories of saints turning to stone, as they have sat in posture doing meditation. Of course, Guru's did not validate this practeice for Kalyug, as, i have mentioned earlier, the shortening timespan of human.

As for Pandu, it was common for Kings to turn to meditation in the last stages of their lives, to atone for any shortcomings of their rule. Wo are we to say that Pandu was not a saint? Guru Ji doesnt call him a saint or a sinner. After the great war, Dhritrashtra and his wife go to the jungle, in the same vein as the rulers before them did.

and lastly, i will ask a question that remained un-answered : what do the seven peaks represent in this alternative theory?

[GPS]

We need to read apni katha ( Autobiographical part) of Bachitra natak carefully before giving our opinion.

Guru sahib has written that he was abosrbed in meditation at Hem Kunt mountain before his coming to

this earth.Meditation is not prohibited in Sikhism. Essence of SGGS teachings is meditation.

This is his prebirth account. While mediating he became one with God.Gurbani endorses this. That is when

God asked him to go to earth and he took birth.

ਅਬ ਮੈ ਅਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ ॥ ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਆਨੋ ॥

अब मै अपनी कथा बखानो ॥ तप साधत जिह बिधि मुहि आनो ॥

Now I relate my own story as to how I was brought here, while I was absorbed in deep meditation.

ਹੇਮ ਕੁੰਟ ਪਰਬਤ ਹੈ ਜਹਾਂ ॥ ਸਪਤ ਸ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਸੋਭਿਤ ਹੈ ਤਹਾਂ ॥੧॥

हेम कुंट परबत है जहां ॥ सपत स्रिंग सोभित है तहां ॥१॥

The site was the mountain named Hemkunt, with seven peaks and looks there very impressive.1.

ਸਪਤ ਸ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਤਿਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਹਾਵਾ ॥ ਪੰਡੁ ਰਾਜ ਜਹ ਜੋਗੁ ਕਮਾਵਾ ॥

सपत स्रिंग तिह नामु कहावा ॥ पंडु राज जह जोगु कमावा ॥

That mountain is called Sapt Shring (seven-peaked mountain), where the Pandavas Practised Yoga.

ਤਹ ਹਮ ਅਧਿਕ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਸਾਧੀ ॥ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥੨॥

तह हम अधिक तपसिआ साधी ॥ महाकाल कालिका अराधी ॥२॥

There I was absorbed in deep meditation on the Primal Power, the Supreme KAL.2.

ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਿਸਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥

इह बिधि करत तपिसआ भयो ॥ द्वै ते एक रूप ह्वै गयो ॥

In this way, my meditation reached its zenith and I became One with the Omnipotent Lord.

ਤਾਤ ਮਾਤ ਮੁਰ ਅਲਖ ਅਰਾਧਾ ॥ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਜੋਗ ਸਾਧਨਾ ਸਾਧਾ ॥੩॥

तात मात मुर अलख अराधा ॥ बहु बिधि जोग साधना साधा ॥३॥

My parents also meditated for the union with the Incomprehensible Lord and performed many types of disciplines for union.3.

ਤਿਨ ਜੋ ਕਰੀ ਅਲਖ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨਿ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਾ ॥

तिन जो करी अलख की सेवा ॥ ता ते भए प्रसंनि गुरदेवा ॥

The service that they rendered the Incomprehensible Lord, caused the pleasure of the Supreme Guru (i.e. Lord).

ਤਿਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਬ ਆਇਸ ਮੁਹਿ ਦੀਆ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਲੀਆ ॥੪॥

तिन प्रभ जब आइस मुहि दीआ ॥ तब हम जनम कलू महि लीआ ॥४॥

When the Lord ordered me, I was born in this Iron age.4.

Bachitra natak, dasam Granth

[Bijla Singh]

So Guru Ji in talking of Ascetism is only relevant for Kalyugi jeev

This is not correct. Gurbani is not limited to kalyug only and kalyug is not as same as what hindus believe it to be. Gurbani is independent of time and its principles apply to all four yugs. Gurbani talks about in many places that only Naam is the savior in all four yugs (meaning forever). There is not a single line in Gurbani which states that the revealed message is only valid in kalyug and will become outdated once the new yug starts (which is an absurd theory). This is a separate topic and can be discussed in details but Gurbani is jug jug attal.

Gurbani says that the womb contains fire, there is no mention of any ice anywhere.

There is no fire in literal sense in the womb. It is a metaphor for suffering and pain. Gurbani calls maya trishna a fire too but again it is not to be taken literally. Guru Sahib on the other hand has described his experience as peaceful and relaxing rather than suffering.

Actually, if you read the sanskrit epics, you will find stories of men doig tapysa in all sorts of extreme weather conditions, going for months and years without food, due to thier practice of pranayam jog. Even there are stories of saints turning to stone, as they have sat in posture doing meditation. Of course, Guru's did not validate this practeice for Kalyug, as, i have mentioned earlier, the shortening timespan of human.

Scientifically, people are living longer now than they did a century ago. Human age is getting longer now so Hindu theory of people living 100,000 years is not valid. There is no mention of Guru Sahib doing bhagtee in physical form in the mountains. While in the womb he was absorbed in deep meditation and this, I think, is when the conversation took place. But to say that he was physically alive in previous birth alludes to him dying and taking birth again.

As for Pandu, it was common for Kings to turn to meditation in the last stages of their lives, to atone for any shortcomings of their rule.

Not in the case of Pandu. Watch Mahabharta and you will see that he went to jungles with his wives and when he wanted to have sexual union he died at the instance of touching his wife. He did not go to Hemkunt.

and lastly, i will ask a question that remained un-answered : what do the seven peaks represent in this alternative theory?

My take in that seven peaks, mountains, snow, waterfalls etc are ideal places for a person to absorb his mind in Naam. All of this is metaphor for the womb where Guru Sahib enjoyed the same peace, calmness and was absorbed in naam. Each does not represent a certain part of the womb. It is the entire scene.

My question is: If Guru Sahib was really from Raam’s descendents then which one as Dasam Granth says that there are many avtaars of Raam. I don’t think it should be taken literally. Those who have studied Dasam Granth should post. Guru Rakha

[GPS]

The point to keep in mind is that Guru sahib is talking about his life before being asked by Akal purakh

to go the world.His dialogue with akal purakh took place before coming to womb.

ਸਪਤ ਸ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਤਿਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਹਾਵਾ ॥ ਪੰਡੁ ਰਾਜ ਜਹ ਜੋਗੁ ਕਮਾਵਾ ॥

सपत स्रिंग तिह नामु कहावा ॥ पंडु राज जह जोगु कमावा ॥

That mountain is called Sapt Shring (seven-peaked mountain), where the Pandavas Practised Yoga.

ਤਹ ਹਮ ਅਧਿਕ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਸਾਧੀ ॥ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥੨॥

तह हम अधिक तपसिआ साधी ॥ महाकाल कालिका अराधी ॥२॥

There I was absorbed in deep meditation on the Primal Power, the Supreme KAL.2.

ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਿਸਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥

इह बिधि करत तपिसआ भयो ॥ द्वै ते एक रूप ह्वै गयो ॥

In this way, my meditation reached its zenith and I became One with the Omnipotent Lord.

Bachitra natak, dasam Granth

[chatanga]

Bijla Singh Ji, I will come back to the points you have raised.

One question in the meantime, Guru Ji says that he was instructed to vanquish terror and uphold dharma. He replies that he has no desire to go to earth of Kalyug, as he enjoys the union with God. But he has to follow hukam of God. If Guru Ji was in the womb when this was happening, how could Guru have said to God, " chit na bhayo hamre aawan ko..." when already he has entered the womb?

Could it possibly be that this conversation took place before Guru Ji entered the womb?

[chatanga]

This is not correct. Gurbani is not limited to kalyug only and kalyug is not as same as what hindus believe it to be. Gurbani is independent of time and its principles apply to all four yugs. Gurbani talks about in many places that only Naam is the savior in all four yugs (meaning forever). There is not a single line in Gurbani which states that the revealed message is only valid in kalyug and will become outdated once the new yug starts (which is an absurd theory). This is a separate topic and can be discussed in details but Gurbani is jug jug attal.

Naam has existed since forever and will, but Gurbani has not existed until Kalyug, although it will exist forever. If Gurbani has existed in the previous three jugs, why reveal it again in this one? This comes back to the question i asked previously but it remained unanswered :

Why was Gurmat revealed in Kal and not in the previous 3 yugs? Ity is because the dharma of Kalyug, ie Gurmat had no place in the previous 3 yugs, just as now the dharmas of the other 3 jugs have been superceded by Gurmat.

There is no fire in literal sense in the womb.

Nor is there anything that could be taken to mean ice.

Scientifically, people are living longer now than they did a century ago. Human age is getting longer now so Hindu theory of people living 100,000 years is not valid. There is no mention of Guru Sahib doing bhagtee in physical form in the mountains. While in the womb he was absorbed in deep meditation and this, I think, is when the conversation took place. But to say that he was physically alive in previous birth alludes to him dying and taking birth again.

we are talking of hundreds of thousands of years ago. Bhai Gurdas Ji talks about this in his varan, about the lives of humans decreasing as the sin overburdens the earth.

Not in the case of Pandu. Watch Mahabharta and you will see that he went to jungles with his wives and when he wanted to have sexual union he died at the instance of touching his wife. He did not go to Hemkunt.

Many things have not been covered in the serial Mahabharat, but this is still not a case to say that Pandu never did any tapasya to try and atone for his sins, in a mountainous environment, physically.

My take in that seven peaks, mountains, snow, waterfalls etc are ideal places for a person to absorb his mind in Naam. All of this is metaphor for the womb where Guru Sahib enjoyed the same peace, calmness and was absorbed in naam. Each does not represent a certain part of the womb. It is the entire scene.

But it is still possible to absorb in naam without any of these things present. What about Guru Ji doing tapasya in a Bhora?

My question is: If Guru Sahib was really from Raam’s descendents then which one as Dasam Granth says that there are many avtaars of Raam. I don’t think it should be taken literally. Those who have studied Dasam Granth should post. Guru Rakha

The Raam that was the ruler of Ayodhya on Earth is the one who Guru Ji says he is descended from.

[GPS]

Guru sahib gives the background of origin of Sodhi and Bedi bans ( dynasty) and its link with King rama's Suryabans.Nowhere he

lays emphasis because of his coming from that dynasty he becomes a special messenger.

He gives very detailed description of fight between the descendants of King Rama which ruin this family. Obviously

it is King rama of ayodhaya. Emphasis of Guru sahib's writing is on doing virtuous deeds and bhagti.

Rather than focussing on such things one should understand the central message from his writing to people of the time

that akal purakh is supreme and King Rama was creation of him.

ਜੋ ਚਉਬੀਸ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥

जो चउबीस अवतार कहाए ॥

Those who are called twenty-four incarnations;

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤੁਮ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਨਿਕ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥

तिन भी तुम प्रभ तनिक न पाए ॥

O Lord ! they even could not realise thee in a small measure;

Chaubis avtar, Dasam Granth

[Bijla Singh]

Could it possibly be that this conversation took place before Guru Ji entered the womb?

It could. It could also be that Akal Purakh picked the soul of Guru Sahib to enter the womb of Mata Gujri Ji. In either case, it does not prove that Guru Sahib was in a physical body as a Hindu saint or physically on a mountain. Even if we believe that it was the physical body and previous birth of Guru Sahib then what importance does that hold to us? Guru Angad Dev Ji was devi worshipper and Guru Amardas Ji used to go to pilgrimage prior to becoming a Sikh but we have not built any Gurdwara at those places or given any importance to their previous lives. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not become our Guru until Jot Nanak was passed on to him. It also makes no sense why Guru Sahib rejected the very path he followed in previous life to reach Waheguru.

Naam has existed since forever and will, but Gurbani has not existed until Kalyug, although it will exist forever. Why was Gurmat revealed in Kal and not in the previous 3 yugs? Ity is because the dharma of Kalyug, ie Gurmat had no place in the previous 3 yugs, just as now the dharmas of the other 3 jugs have been superceded by Gurmat.

Gurbani is roop of Waheguru. Hence it has existed since aad. It was revealed by the Gurus but it did exist before. Guru Sahib has existed since aad but just because He manifested in 1469 does not mean he didn't exist prior to that. Gurbani is clear that the way to reach Waheguru has always been the same through Naam. If God doesn't change then why does the way to reach him change?

Please study Gurmat from the viewpoint of Gurbani not of Hinduism, Vedant or Sanatanism. Your statement tells me that you have not studied Gurbani so please spend some time. It will be beneficial. Waheguru sent many to propagate the true path but all failed. Dasam Granth is clear on that. Bhai Gurdas Ji also says that old ways had fogged the truth and none could realize it. People invented their own ways and none could guide the humanity. This is why at the end, Waheguru manifested himself as a Guru and revealed his own path. Again, prove from Gurbani that all other ways that are rejected in Gurmat were valid prior to 1469 or were the true ways to reach Waheguru. People followed different ways but it doesn't mean those ways were valid. Give me the date of the last day of Dwapar and first day of kalyug. What year was it? Why did people keep following ways of dwapar in kalyug? When satyug starts will Gurmat become invalid? What would be the way to get muktee then? Divine truth does not change over time. Naam created the creation and sustains all. Naam is the only way to be saved and has been since aad. No other way is valid.

Truth is truth and remains so regardless of time. It does not change. Truth is Akal. Assume Kalyug ends next Wednesday, does it mean Gurbani will be outdated Thursday and a new way has to be revealed? No. Was there truly a Satyug when Prehlaad was tortured by his father? How was it a Satyug when Harnakash did not even follow a true way of life? Is there a kalyug when gurmukhs sit in sangat and sing praises of Akal? Gurbani does not advocate four yugs in literal sense. Age of Satyug, Treta, Dwapar and Kalyug is 1728000, 1596000, 864000 and 472000 human years respectively. Can you prove from Gurbani that this theory is accepted in Gurmat? Yug is not dependent on time but on behavior of people. When all become saints and true bhagats it will be satyug and when all follow maya it is kalyug. Hence yug alludes to avastha and doings of humanity. Yug is dependent on how people behave and changes based on their avastha not the other way around (people don't change behavior according to yug).

Nor is there anything that could be taken to mean ice.

Correct. In literal sense there is no fire or ice but in metaphoric sense there is suffering and pain (fire) or peace and calmness (ice).

we are talking of hundreds of thousands of years ago. Bhai Gurdas Ji talks about this in his varan, about the lives of humans decreasing as the sin overburdens the earth.

Please present that pauri and we can discuss it. Sin does not decrease one's life otherwise we would see the likes of Badal not living much longer than many true Sikhs.

Many things have not been covered in the serial Mahabharat, but this is still not a case to say that Pandu never did any tapasya to try and atone for his sins, in a mountainous environment, physically.

Okay, provide evidence that Pandu went to Hemkunt. He was not a yogi who could hold his breath for many years. His sons were born in the jungle. Had he been in mountains his sons could not have survived there.

But it is still possible to absorb in naam without any of these things present.

This is Gurmat viewpoint that one does not need to become an ascetic. Prior to advent of Guru Sahib, yogis, ascetics etc did look for such places. Yogis and siddhas went to high mountaineous areas.

What about Guru Ji doing tapasya in a Bhora?

Which guru? Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji? In that case he was not an ascetic but a householder. He lived according to Gurmat.

The Raam that was the ruler of Ayodhya on Earth is the one who Guru Ji says he is descended from.

Which Ayodheya and which Raam? I have already stated that current Ayodheya has nothing to do with Raam Chandar. It remained a Buddhist holy city until 800 A.D. Is there any evidence to prove that caste system or Hinduism existed thousands of years ago? Where are species related to hanuman? What about other descendents of Raam and Bharat? Keep in mind, archeological evidence proves that cities related to Krishan are older than Ayodheya. If Raam really came before Krishan then at least his city would've been older too. There are many topics in one thread. Try focusing on one at a time.

GPS ji, I agree with your points but dispute the theory of Raam ever being born in Ayodheya. Only Guru Sahib knows all. Guru Rakha

[chatanga]

Please present that pauri and we can discuss it. Sin does not decrease one's life otherwise we would see the likes of Badal not living much longer than many true Sikhs.

this is the Bhai Gurdas Vaar that i was refering to:

Vaar 1 Pauri 6

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੇ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਰੂਪ ਧਰਿ ਸੂਰਜ ਬੰਸੀ ਵਡਿ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ।

In Treta in the Sun-dynasty descended in the form of the kshatriya(Ram) a great incarnation.

Line 1

ਨਉ ਹਿਸੇ ਗਈ ਆਰਜਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਪਸਾਰਾ ।

Now the nine portions of age lessened and illusion,attachment and ego inflated.

Line 2

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਜਾਦਵ ਵੰਸ ਕਰਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਅਉਧ ਘਟੈ ਆਚਾਰਾ ।

In Dvapar, Yadav-dynasty came to the forefront i.e. the incarnation of Krsna became known to the people; but because of the lack of good conduct, Age by Age, the life span(of man) went on decreasing.

[GPS]

I do not think one should argue against existence of King Rama because of geographical location of present day Ayodhaya.

Cities are destroyed with time and then rebuilt may be at some other place. The fact is that he was Rama of ayodhaya.

ਰਘੁਬੰਸਿ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਸੁੰਦਰੁ ਦਸਰਥ ਘਰਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਬੰਛਹਿ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੰ ॥

raghubans tilak sundar dasrath ghar mun banchheh jaa kee sarna^N.

He is certified, like the handsome Ram Chander in the house of Dasrath of the Raghwa dynasty. Even the silent sages seek His Sanctuary

ang 1401

Shabad is anhad naad that was ever present in the cosmic, is there and will be there.It was there before creation and hence was there before Gurbani was written by Guru sahib.

ਸਬਦੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਵਣਿਆ

The Ambrosial Word of the Guru's Bani emanates from the Shabad.

The Spiritual Being (Gurmukh) narrates it and preaches to the world

SGGS ji ang 125