Hindus Challenging Originality Of Sikhism

[Bundha]

I think 'Trying to Khalsa' is making a valid point, this site is making a direct challenge to Sikhi saying that Sikhs are basically part of Hindus, this should be tackled. Rather then round on 'Trying to be Khalsa' why don't you try rounding on this site and challenge what they are saying ?

It is all easy to say 'there are fanaticals in every religion and we should ignore them' but we shouldn't ignore them, where ever there is confusion being spread we need to tackle it, it is oh so easy to sit back in your chair and just say - they are just fanaticals and we should ignore them. You pick up on one point about whether Sikhi is original or not and labour the point, yet his basic point that this site is spreading confusion seems to elude you, why? Because it's more difficult to go on this site and confront them.

If 'Trying to be Khalsa' feels uneasy and maybe a little confused with what is on this site then you can bet your bottom dollar that there are dozens of people Sikh and no -sikh who will be taken in by this deadful site and will have an eskew vision on Sikhism. We need to takcle this, how many more sites will is take for us to realise that there is a systematic attempt to undemine our Sikh values for us to get up off out back-sides and actually do something about this???????

[chatanga]

Dear chatanga ,

The way that article is written just makes a sikh feel uneasy .

Hindus have been saying since ages that sikhs are our brothers , but the site link I gave has more like a RSS mentality .

Infact , if you explore the site ( which I did ) , it carries the same old RSS propaganda .

Hinduism and Sikhism maybe similar , but please remember that idol worship and many other things are not accepted in sikhi .

Khalsa Ji, I agree and accept what you have about that article. What the Hindus have been writing is nothing new, they said the same things in Guru Ji's times. But they have raised some points that we should not be afraid to accept. ie that Guru's Kul is soorajvanshi descendants of Bhagwaan Ram Chander.

Bytheway there are far more worse articles than that about us.

Guru Nanak came to save the world in Kalyug, to bring the world back to worship of One God, re-emphasising parts of what the sanskrit granths taught the hindus yugs ago. Included in that were new teachings for Kalyug, which would not have been applicable in previous yugs, according to the leela of Waheguru.

[Trying to be Khalsa]

I think 'Trying to Khalsa' is making a valid point, this site is making a direct challenge to Sikhi saying that Sikhs are basically part of Hindus, this should be tackled. Rather then round on 'Trying to be Khalsa' why don't you try rounding on this site and challenge what they are saying ?

It is all easy to say 'there are fanaticals in every religion and we should ignore them' but we shouldn't ignore them, where ever there is confusion being spread we need to tackle it, it is oh so easy to sit back in your chair and just say - they are just fanaticals and we should ignore them. You pick up on one point about whether Sikhi is original or not and labour the point, yet his basic point that this site is spreading confusion seems to elude you, why? Because it's more difficult to go on this site and confront them.

If 'Trying to be Khalsa' feels uneasy and maybe a little confused with what is on this site then you can bet your bottom dollar that there are dozens of people Sikh and no -sikh who will be taken in by this deadful site and will have an eskew vision on Sikhism. We need to takcle this, how many more sites will is take for us to realise that there is a systematic attempt to undemine our Sikh values for us to get up off out back-sides and actually do something about this???????

Yes , I agree completely with you veerji .

RSS is not for hindus , just for brahmans . Brahmans destroyed buddhism 1 millenium back and mixed jainism with hinduism ( How many jains today say that they are separate from hindus ? hardly any ! ) . Jainism is distinct from hinduism but it is now destroyed by brahmans . Buddhism was major religion in India 1000 years back ! what happened ? where did all buddhists went ?

Buddha was made avatar of vishnu , even though he isn't an avtar of vishnu.

Brahmans ( not all hindus ) think that they can do same thing with sikhi . I am dead sure they can't do it with sikhi , because we have kirpans .

Buddhists only had rosary ,not kirpan !

BUT , it in now way means we should keep mum over whats happening behind our backs by these bahmans .

[Trying to be Khalsa]

Khalsa Ji, I agree and accept what you have about that article. What the Hindus have been writing is nothing new, they said the same things in Guru Ji's times. But they have raised some points that we should not be afraid to accept. ie that Guru's Kul is soorajvanshi descendants of Bhagwaan Ram Chander.

Bytheway there are far more worse articles than that about us.

Guru Nanak came to save the world in Kalyug, to bring the world back to worship of One God, re-emphasising parts of what the sanskrit granths taught the hindus yugs ago. Included in that were new teachings for Kalyug, which would not have been applicable in previous yugs, according to the leela of Waheguru.

Dear chatanga , You have your own opinion and I respect it . I partly agree with you what you are saying !

There must be some truth in vedas ! But , its all lost ! Today Guru Granth Sahib ji is only guide for those who try to depend on vedas .

Have you ever read vedas ( or even geeta ) ? Language is so so difficult to understand and only in sanskrit which only brahmans studied !

On the contrary , our gurbani is full of different words of different language . Language is so so simple and words are so sweet ! Guru is so nimarta . Is there such nimarta in bhagwad geeta ? no . It is more like an order . But , in gurbani alone , you hear words like " bhai re " , "pyaare " , "saadho".

Words are full of affection. No comparison to hinduism .

ONE more point ! You said karma , dharma , reincarnation , 84 lakh joons are hindu concepts .

But , aren't these universal concepts ( free from religions ) ? ( like how gravity is universal law ) .

[chatanga]

for the further discussion of this article i will cap it here, and colour in any things which i dont beleive to be true in red, and what is ok in blue. please feel free to discuss.

The Unbreakable Hindu Sikh Bond

By Dr. Arvind S. Godbole , August 2005

1Chapter :

Copyright Organiser By Dr. Arvind S. Godbole

The claim of many Sikh politicians and authors that Sikhism is a separate religion, calls for an objective and a nationwide debate. In this debate, we can keep aside, the semantic of the terms dharma and religion and use the term religion, as it is commonly understood at present.

To qualify as a separate religion it must have a theology and philosophy distinct from other religions. The revered, Shri Guru Granth Sahib (Granth, G.pp. no) is the most important source of Sikh theology and philosophy. According to the Granth, the supreme Being is sans beginning (G.1351), primordial being (G.129), complete or integral (G.705) eternally true (G.1,119), sans human birth (G.1,99), transcendent as well as immanent (g.79, 102 etc), antarjami (G.13,43,454 etc.) nirvairu or sans enemity (G.1,99), fearless (G.199), fearless (G.1,464 etc.), supremely resplendent ( G.13,277 etc.), supreme bliss (G.814), untainted or niranjana (G.119,597,1353) and both sarguna and nirguna (G.128,862).

These basic theological concepts are of the Sanatana Hindu religion. Shankara in his Vivekachudamani (225) calls Parabrahma as nitya or eternal. Bhagvadgita (9.18) regards the supreme as the primordial origin of the universe. The Chandogya Upanishad (8.3.8) holds that the truth is His name. Bhagvadgita, (7.25), declares that the ignorant think that the Supreme Being has a birth. The immanence of the Supreme being, a cardinal tenet of the Sanatana Hindu religion and the Sikhism differentiates then clearly from the Semitic religions, who do not subscribe to that doctrine. Several hymns of the Granth, bring out very eloquently, the contrary attributes of God e.g. You are the teacher, you are the disciple)G.69); You are water, you are the fish (G.85). This is a corollary of the doctrine of total immanence of God and is an echo of the Taittiriya Upanishad. Antarjami (antaryamin), an attribute of God, is drown from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. The epithet, nirvairu of the Parabrahma is a corollary of the doctrine of immanence. The Amritbindupanishad (6) holds that God is impartial. This doctrine differs from the Old Testament concept of chosen people or the Quranic concept of the favoured believers. That the Supreme is a bliss is a Vedantic concept, endorsed both by The Brahmasutra and the Tejabindupanishad. That the supreme is untainted is the doctrine of the Upanishads, later adopted by the Nath samparadaya. Guru Nanak has sung the glory of Om (G.929-930) as the creator of the Vedas, etc. Needless to say the Om is the Vedic mantra as well as a pan Hindu symbol. Expressions like, Uradh mula jasu sakha (Guru Nanak, g.503), Neta neta kathanti beda (Guru Arjuna, g.1359), Brahamgiani sada niralepa jaise jalamahi kamal alepa (Guru Arjuna, G. 272) are but echoes of the Vedas and the Bhagvadgita.

The philosophical concepts of the Grantha like indestructibility of soul, the cycle of birth, death and rebirth, evil impulses viz lust, anger, etc., maya, brahamgiani, cardinal importance of guru, the importance of recitation and meditation of Hari or Ramanama, realization of soham for the liberation, jeevana mukti, the merger of the individual soul with the supreme soul, during life time or the mukti, the two categories of people viz the manamukha seeking ephemeral pleasures and the gurumukha or the god oriented people, are Sanatana Hindu Concepts.

The Philosophical nomenclature of the Granth viz Parabrahma, Ghata, Pinda, Atama, Moksha, Mukti, jeevan Mukti, Maya, Mithya, Sarguna and Nirguna, Bharamanda, Jogu (yoga), Raja Jogu (rajayoga), Isaru (Ishvara) is same as that of the Sanatana Hindu religion. The term like four yugas, four padaratha goals of life-viz the purushartha, tribhuvana, amrita, lakha chourasiha 84 lakh species, which appear so often in the Grantha denote its Sanatana Hindu ethos.

Neither Guru Nanak nor any of the other Sikh Gurus declares in their hymns that he is founding a religion. Guru Amardas declares that He gave the smritis, the Shastras (Vedas) and the reckoning of punya and papa (G.949). You are the Shastras, you are the Vedas, sings Guru Arjun (G.1150). Not only the Smritis and the Shastras but Puranas also were created by His order, declares Guru Arjun (g.261). A distinct civil code and a distinct mythology are hallmarks of a separate religion e.g. Islam, Old Testament as the mythology of the Semitic religions. The Sikhs share the same mythology, as elaborated by the Ramayana, Mahabharata, Puranas, Shrimad Bhagvata, with the Sanatani Hindus. The Sikhs never had and could not have a separate civil code, given the reverence of the Sikh Gurus for the Smritis and the absence of any declarations, in the Granth on marriage, divorce and inheritance. The recent practice of many Sikh authors to present ten Sikh Gurus as ten prophets does not have a scriptural basis. Sikh Gurus never claimed to be prophets or having received any massages from God. With great humility, they said that they were but the dust of the feet of saints.

The rejection by the Sikh Gurus of the Vedic rituals and their insistence on inner realization of God is consistent with the Upanishads. Although the hymns of the Granth repeatedly describe god as formless, a nirguna, they do describe, in many places, the physical attributes of God. Wherever they do so, the description is invariably that of Vishnu or one of His incarnations (G.567, 1082, 1402). The argument that because Sikhism is monotheistic, it is akin to Islam and or a different religion is unfounded. The monotheism of Sikhism is different from that of Islam. While revering the One Parabrahma, Sikhism like the Sanatana Hindu religion, does not reject other Gods. The expression like Suri Nara (G.775), devate kodi tetise (G.1079), tritia brahma bisanu mahesa (G.839), Yama, Yamaduta, Yama danda appear in the Granth. The Farid Bani in the Granth does not support the notion that there is a Sufi element in Sikhism. The Farid Bani deals with general themes like inevitability of old age and death. It does not bring out any basic philosophical doctrines. Unlike the Bhagat Bani, which appears uninterrupted, in the Granth, the Farid Bani is interspersed with the Gurus verses, indicating that the Gurus desired to comment on it. The Sufi nomenclature is conspicuous by its absence in the Granth. The Gurus criticism of mechanical relation of the Vedas without understanding their meaning and their insistence on the inner God realization is consistent with Shankaras Vivekachudamani V. The rejection of idol worship by the Sikh gurus has been mistakenly interpreted as rejection of the Sanatana Hindu religion. He is not in any symbol declares the Brahma sutra ((4.1-4). Idol worship is not an essential component of the Sanatana Hindu religion. The claim that Sikhism rejects the avatara concept of the Sanatana Hindu religion is also baseless. Sunnahu upaje dasa avatara declares Guru Nanak (G.1038). Assuming the form of a child, you killed Kamsa, Keshi and Kuvalyapida, says Guru Ramadas (G.606). In one hymn, Guru Arjun enumerates various avatara (G.1082). Story of Prahlad (Narasimha avatara) appears in many places in the Granth, Guru Gobind Singh wrote Ramavatara, Krishnavatara and and Chobis avatara. Guru Gobind Singh says in his autobiographical Bachitra Natak that the Bedis (Guru Nanaks clan) and the Sodhis, his own clan originated, respectively, from Kusha and Lava, the sons of Shri Rama. It should be remembered that Guru Gobind Singh did not make the initiation into the Khalsa, mandatory for all Sikhs. Bhai Nandlal, an important member of the court of the tenth Guru and an author of a famous Sikh Rahatnama and Bhai Kanhaiya were not Khalsa Sikhs.

The fear that the Sikhs will lose their identity if they are included in the Hindu society is unfounded. Without losing their characteristic features and individual identity, the Varkaris, the Ramadasis, the Swami Narayan Panthis have remained within the Hindu society. In the present controversy of the nature of Sikh religion, let us keep aside the current and past politics and in the Sikh tradition, seek the guidance from the Guru Granth Sahib.

(Dr. Arvind Godbole is author of Guru Nanak Guru Gobind Singh (Marathi) and Philosophy of Shri Guru Granth Sahib (English) and many articles on Sikh history and Sikh Philosophy.)

[Trying to be Khalsa]

for the further discussion of this article i will cap it here, and colour in any things which i dont beleive to be true in red, and what is ok in blue. please feel free to discuss.

The Unbreakable Hindu Sikh Bond

By Dr. Arvind S. Godbole , August 2005

1Chapter :

Copyright Organiser By Dr. Arvind S. Godbole

The claim of many Sikh politicians and authors that Sikhism is a separate religion, calls for an objective and a nationwide debate. In this debate, we can keep aside, the semantic of the terms dharma and ‘religion’ and use the term ‘religion’, as it is commonly understood at present.

To qualify as a ‘separate religion’ it must have a theology and philosophy distinct from other religions. The revered, Shri Guru Granth Sahib (Granth, G.pp. no) is the most important source of Sikh theology and philosophy. According to the Granth, the supreme Being is sans beginning (G.1351), primordial being (G.129), complete or integral (G.705) eternally true (G.1,119), sans human birth (G.1,99), transcendent as well as immanent (g.79, 102 etc), antarjami (G.13,43,454 etc.) nirvairu or sans enemity (G.1,99), fearless (G.199), fearless (G.1,464 etc.), supremely resplendent ( G.13,277 etc.), supreme bliss (G.814), untainted or niranjana (G.119,597,1353) and both sarguna and nirguna (G.128,862).

These basic theological concepts are of the Sanatana Hindu religion. Shankara in his Vivekachudamani (225) calls Parabrahma as nitya or eternal. Bhagvadgita (9.18) regards the supreme as the primordial origin of the universe. The Chandogya Upanishad (8.3.8) holds that the truth is His name. Bhagvadgita, (7.25), declares that the ignorant think that the Supreme Being has a birth. The immanence of the Supreme being, a cardinal tenet of the Sanatana Hindu religion and the Sikhism differentiates then clearly from the Semitic religions, who do not subscribe to that doctrine. Several hymns of the Granth, bring out very eloquently, the contrary attributes of God e.g. ‘You are the teacher, you are the disciple’)G.69); ‘You are water, you are the fish’ (G.85). This is a corollary of the doctrine of total immanence of God and is an echo of the Taittiriya Upanishad. Antarjami (antaryamin), an attribute of God, is drown from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. The epithet, nirvairu of the Parabrahma is a corollary of the doctrine of immanence. The Amritbindupanishad (6) holds that God is impartial. This doctrine differs from the Old Testament concept of ‘chosen people’ or the Quranic concept of the ‘favoured believers’. That the Supreme is a bliss is a Vedantic concept, endorsed both by The Brahmasutra and the Tejabindupanishad. That the supreme is untainted is the doctrine of the Upanishads, later adopted by the Nath samparadaya. Guru Nanak has sung the glory of Om (G.929-930) as the creator of the Vedas, etc. Needless to say the Om is the Vedic mantra as well as a pan Hindu symbol. Expressions like, ‘Uradh mula jasu sakha’ (Guru Nanak, g.503), ‘Neta neta kathanti beda’ (Guru Arjuna, g.1359), ‘Brahamgiani sada niralepa jaise jalamahi kamal alepa’ (Guru Arjuna, G. 272) are but echoes of the Vedas and the Bhagvadgita.

The philosophical concepts of the Grantha like indestructibility of soul, the cycle of birth, death and rebirth, evil impulses viz lust, anger, etc., maya, brahamgiani, cardinal importance of guru, the importance of recitation and meditation of Hari or Ramanama, realization of soham for the liberation, jeevana mukti, the merger of the individual soul with the supreme soul, during life time or the mukti, the two categories of people viz the manamukha seeking ephemeral pleasures and the gurumukha or the god oriented people, are Sanatana Hindu Concepts.

The Philosophical nomenclature of the Granth viz Parabrahma, Ghata, Pinda, Atama, Moksha, Mukti, jeevan Mukti, Maya, Mithya, Sarguna and Nirguna, Bharamanda, Jogu (yoga), Raja Jogu (rajayoga), Isaru (Ishvara) is same as that of the Sanatana Hindu religion. The term like four yugas, four padaratha goals of life-viz the purushartha, tribhuvana, amrita, lakha chourasiha 84 lakh species, which appear so often in the Grantha denote its Sanatana Hindu ethos.

Neither Guru Nanak nor any of the other Sikh Gurus declares in their hymns that he is founding a religion. Guru Amardas declares that ‘He gave the smritis, the Shastras (Vedas) and the reckoning of punya and papa’ (G.949). “You are the Shastras, you are the Vedas”, sings Guru Arjun (G.1150). Not only the Smritis and the Shastras but Puranas also were created by His order, declares Guru Arjun (g.261). A distinct civil code and a distinct mythology are hallmarks of a separate religion e.g. Islam, Old Testament as the mythology of the Semitic religions. The Sikhs share the same mythology, as elaborated by the Ramayana, Mahabharata, Puranas, Shrimad Bhagvata, with the Sanatani Hindus. The Sikhs never had and could not have a separate civil code, given the reverence of the Sikh Gurus for the Smritis and the absence of any declarations, in the Granth on marriage, divorce and inheritance. The recent practice of many Sikh authors to present ten Sikh Gurus as ten prophets does not have a scriptural basis. Sikh Gurus never claimed to be prophets or having received any massages from God. With great humility, they said that they were but the dust of the feet of saints.

The rejection by the Sikh Gurus of the Vedic rituals and their insistence on inner realization of God is consistent with the Upanishads. Although the hymns of the Granth repeatedly describe god as formless, a nirguna, they do describe, in many places, the physical attributes of God. Wherever they do so, the description is invariably that of Vishnu or one of His incarnations (G.567, 1082, 1402). The argument that because Sikhism is monotheistic, it is akin to Islam and or a different religion is unfounded. The monotheism of Sikhism is different from that of Islam. While revering the One Parabrahma, Sikhism like the Sanatana Hindu religion, does not reject other Gods. The expression like ‘Suri Nara’ (G.775), devate kodi tetise’ (G.1079), ‘tritia brahma bisanu mahesa’ (G.839), Yama, Yamaduta, Yama danda appear in the Granth. The Farid Bani in the Granth does not support the notion that there is a Sufi element in Sikhism. The Farid Bani deals with general themes like inevitability of old age and death. It does not bring out any basic philosophical doctrines. Unlike the Bhagat Bani, which appears uninterrupted, in the Granth, the Farid Bani is interspersed with the Guru’s verses, indicating that the Gurus desired to comment on it. The Sufi nomenclature is conspicuous by its absence in the Granth. The Guru’s criticism of mechanical relation of the Vedas without understanding their meaning and their insistence on the inner God realization is consistent with Shankara’s Vivekachudamani V. The rejection of idol worship by the Sikh gurus has been mistakenly interpreted as rejection of the Sanatana Hindu religion. ‘He is not in any symbol’ declares the Brahma sutra ((4.1-4). Idol worship is not an essential component of the Sanatana Hindu religion. The claim that Sikhism rejects the avatara concept of the Sanatana Hindu religion is also baseless. ‘Sunnahu upaje dasa avatara ‘declares Guru Nanak (G.1038). ‘Assuming the form of a child, you killed Kamsa, Keshi and Kuvalyapida’, says Guru Ramadas (G.606). In one hymn, Guru Arjun enumerates various avatara (G.1082). Story of Prahlad (Narasimha avatara) appears in many places in the Granth, Guru Gobind Singh wrote Ramavatara, Krishnavatara and and Chobis avatara. Guru Gobind Singh says in his autobiographical ‘Bachitra Natak’ that the Bedis (Guru Nanak’s clan) and the Sodhis, his own clan originated, respectively, from Kusha and Lava, the sons of Shri Rama. It should be remembered that Guru Gobind Singh did not make the initiation into the Khalsa, mandatory for all Sikhs. Bhai Nandlal, an important member of the court of the tenth Guru and an author of a famous Sikh Rahatnama and Bhai Kanhaiya were not Khalsa Sikhs.

The fear that the Sikhs will lose their identity if they are included in the Hindu society is unfounded. Without losing their characteristic features and individual identity, the Varkaris, the Ramadasis, the Swami Narayan Panthis have remained within the Hindu society. In the present controversy of the nature of ‘Sikh religion’, let us keep aside the current and past politics and in the Sikh tradition, seek the guidance from the Guru Granth Sahib.

(Dr. Arvind Godbole is author of Guru Nanak Guru Gobind Singh (Marathi) and Philosophy of Shri Guru Granth Sahib’ (English) and many articles on Sikh history and Sikh Philosophy.)

Isn't there more red part and lesser blue part ?

Anyways , how can we even think of those as well wishers who replace the word "oankar" in dakhni oankar bani with "omkar" or om.

Guru Hargobind Ji never forgave Baba Har rai for abusing Bani at the court of aurangzeb .

So , how can we sikhs of guru , forgive these Fanatics for altering bani of Gurus ?

[GPS]

Someone suggested that we should reply to each and every point raised by fanatical forces belonging to non-sikh religion in their writings.

It is good to remember that sikhs have a lot of internal enemies who are doing more harm than external enemies.

An external enemy is identified one and we will not believe in what they write about sikhism.

Hidden enemy among our ranks who also call themselves as reformist sikhs, are more dangerous to sikhism in the long

run. RSS tried frontal attack on sikhs but failed miserably.There is a hukamnama from akal takhat not to intermingle with

RSS.Then they went on to operate through their sikh agents.So internal enemy is difficult to be identified.They change their tactics.Their main aim is indulge in subtle propaganda distorting sikh history and traditions, pit one granth against the other etc.

This they do to mislead those who are not well read in their scriptures. The need of the hour is to confront and unmask these people

on priority basis.You have many more sites posing as teaching sikhism run by sikhs who are propagating against sikhism openly.

They need to be exposed and tackled on top priority basis.This can only be done by having knowledge of our scriptures.Mere talks will not help.

[Bijla Singh]

Every teaching in Aad Guru is not new. There are many teachings that were already prevalent in other religions including Hinduism. There are concepts in Guru Granth Sahib that are found in Vedic teachings ie the role of Atma and Param-Atma. churasi- lakh joon...

Since Gurbani and its every word is revealed one cannot but conclude that every teaching of Gurmat is new and not an "old wine in a new bottle". Granted same words are used which appear in other scriptures but they are redefined and the concepts are vastly different. You can pick any one concept and we can discuss it in details. Gurmat is not only new but unique in every way. Vedas are rejected in Gurbani and therefore accepting anything they teach is simply contradictory. Whether we talk about karma, heaven hell, maya, soul, transmigration etc Guru Sahib had different interpretation. A true Sikh believes Gurmat is revealed. If Guru Sahib copied some philosophy from other religions then the implication is that Gurmat is not entirely revealed but partially. This reduces the level of Guru Sahib from revolutionary to reformist. Just think about one point; Gurbani redefines true Muslim, Pandit, brahmin, Yogi, Udasi etc but not a single line that tells us who a true Hindu is. Ponder upon it. Word "Hindu" is neither a religious term not does it have anything to do with various sects that existed in 16^th century. Current Hinduism is simply s mixture of many contradictory teachings and philosophies.

But they have raised some points that we should not be afraid to accept. ie that Guru's Kul is soorajvanshi descendants of Bhagwaan Ram Chander.

There are various versions of Ramayan and each one gives us different character of Raam. One says he was born in Varanasi, another says he was born in Ayodheya. Ayodheya was founded by Buddhists and remained a Buddhist holy city until 800 AD when Hindus started settling there. Raam was not added to the line of avtaars of Vishnu until 11^th century and his bhagtee did not become popular until Ramanand Vaishnav. In the light of these facts accepting Raam as an avtaar is fallacious. Guru Sahib has used many metaphors in Bachittar Natak. In fact the very name of this literature should make us think why it was called Bachittar and Natak. Taking everything literally will misguide us and we end up building a Gurdwara in some mountain.

I can reply to that article but it is a waste of time. Such articles appear every day but they can only influence those who don't know anything about Gurmat.

Guru Hargobind Ji never forgave Baba Har rai for abusing Bani at the court of aurangzeb .

Guru Har Rai Ji is the 7^th Guru. Guru Har Rai Ji never forgave his son Ram Rai.

[GPS]

Chatanga ji

What exactly is your point? Are you saying that sikhism is a refined sanatan dharma?

If so then you are deadly wrong. We need to remember that Hinduism has undergone many revisions

with passage of time starting with vedas then adopting puranas , simirities.It has not got a fixed philosophy.

Sanatan dharama believes in caste system whereas khalsa shuns that. There is a sea of difference between sikhism

and santan dharma on concept of sarguna form of God. Sanatans do idol wroship.Sikhs have been described as idol breakers

by our tenth master.Dasam Granth sahib testifes that.

Godbole should not take stray lines from SGGS ji and misinterpret those. He has to see the philosophical differences between

organized religions i.e. Hinduism and Khalsa sikhs.We reject many of their core philosphies.

I will like to know your views on compatibility of sikhism with sanatan dharma.

[GPS]

Godbole should read this before writing nonsense about sikhism

ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਔ ਬਿਸਨ ਜਪੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਭਲੀ ਬਿਧਿ ਧਿਆਯੋ ॥

क्रिसन औ बिसन जपे तुहि कोटिक राम रहीम भली बिधि धिआयो ॥

Thou hast meditated on millions of Krishnas, Vishnus, Ramas and Rahims.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜਪਿਓ ਅਰੁ ਸੰਭੁ ਥਪਿਓ ਤਹਿ ਤੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਬਚਾਯੋ ॥

ब्रहम जपिओ अरु स्मभु थपिओ तहि ते तुहि को किनहूं न बचायो ॥

Thou hast recited the name of Brahma and established Shivalingam, even then none could save thee.

ਕੋਟ ਕਰੀ ਤਪਸਾ ਦਿਨ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਕੌਡੀ ਕੋ ਕਾਮ ਕਢਾਯੋ ॥

कोट करी तपसा दिन कोटिक काहूं न कौडी को काम कढायो ॥

Thou hast observed millions of austerities for millions of days, but thou couldst not be recompensed even for the value of a couldst not be recompensed even for the value of a cowrie.

ਕਾਮਕੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਕਸੀਰੇ ਕੇ ਕਾਮ ਨ ਕਾਲ ਕੋ ਘਾਉ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਬਚਾਯੋ ॥੯੭॥

कामकु मंत्र कसीरे के काम न काल को घाउ किनहूं न बचायो ॥९७॥

The Mantra recited for fulfillment of worldly desires doth not even bring the least gain and none of such Mantras can`t save from the blow of KAL.97.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਕੂਰ ਕਰੈ ਤਪਸਾ ਇਨ ਕੀ ਕੋਊ ਕੌਡੀ ਕੇ ਕਾਮ ਨ ਐਹੈ ॥

काहे को कूर करै तपसा इन की कोऊ कौडी के काम न ऐहै ॥

Why doth thou indulge in false austerities, because they will not bring in gain of even one cowrie.

ਤੋਹਿ ਬਚਾਇ ਸਕੈ ਕਹੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਕੈ ਆਪਨ ਘਾਵ ਬਚਾਇ ਨ ਐਹੈ ॥

तोहि बचाइ सकै कहु कैसे कै आपन घाव बचाइ न ऐहै ॥

The cannot save themselves form the blow (of KAL), how can they protect thee?

ਕੋਪ ਕਰਾਲ ਕੀ ਪਾਵਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੈ ਆਪ ਟੰਗਿਓ ਤਿਮ ਤੋਹਿ ਟੰਗੈਹੈ ॥

कोप कराल की पावक कुंड मै आप टंगिओ तिम तोहि टंगैहै ॥

They are all hanging in the blazing fire of anger, therefore they will cause thy hanging similarly.

ਚੇਤ ਰੇ ਚੇਤ ਅਜੋ ਜੀਅ ਮੈਂ ਜੜ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਾਮ ਨ ਐਹੈ ॥੯੮॥

चेत रे चेत अजो जीअ मैं जड़ काल क्रिपा बिनु काम न ऐहै ॥९८॥

O fool! Ruminate now in thy mind; none will be of any use to thee except the grace of KAL.98.

ਤਾਹਿ ਪਛਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਨ ਮਹਾ ਪਸੁ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਤਿਹੂੰ ਪੁਰ ਮਾਹੀ ॥

ताहि पछानत है न महा पसु जा को प्रतापु तिहूं पुर माही ॥

O foolish beast! Thou doth not recognize Him, Whose Glory hath spread over all the three worlds.

ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੇ ਪਰਸੈ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਪਰਾਹੀ ॥

पूजत है परमेसर कै जिह के परसै परलोक पराही ॥

Thou worshippest those as God, by whose touch thou shalt be driven far away from the next world.

ਪਾਪ ਕਰੋ ਪਰਮਾਰਥ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਪਾਪਨ ਤੇ ਅਤਿ ਪਾਪ ਲਜਾਹੀ ॥

पाप करो परमारथ कै जिह पापन ते अति पाप लजाही ॥

Thou art committing such sins in th name of parmarath (the subtle truth) that by committing them the Great sins may feel shy.

ਪਾਇ ਪਰੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕੇ ਜੜ ਪਾਹਨ ਮੈਂ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਨਾਹੀ ॥੯੯॥

पाइ परो परमेसर के जड़ पाहन मैं परमेसर नाही ॥९९॥

O fool! Fall at the feet of Lord-God, the Lord is not within the stone-idols.99.

ਮੋਨ ਭਜੇ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨ ਤਜੇ ਨਹੀ ਭੇਖ ਸਜੇ ਨਹੀ ਮੂੰਡ ਮੁੰਡਾਏ॥

मोन भजे नही मान तजे नही भेख सजे नही मूंड मुंडाए॥

The Lord cannot be realized by observing silence, by forsaking pride, by adopting guises and by shaving the head.

Guru Gobind Singh ji, Dasam Granth Sahib