People Clapping And Dancing On Stage

[humkire]

We are not Judges here to or lawyers to judge others and issue summons. We should be more concerned about ourselves rather than passing judgement on others.

SGGSJi is the judge and lawyer; He alone has the right to judge Neeldharis/and other Dharis and Us also. We donot even know that In the eyes of satguru, Who is right and who is wrong.

I am afraid what you have said is utterly ridiculous! Am I on a mainstream Sikh website or am I on a website that somehow is diseased with sympathisers of destructive cults offshooting like suckers from Sikhism who do not have the backbone to say right from wrong! You ought to be absolutely concerned with ‘YOURSELF’ I agree for not being able to take a clear stand against the namdharees and neeldharees and the rest of the lot who have set up shop in the name of Sikhism, when so much has been painstakingly written over and over again to make you realise these are destructive forces. We as the Khalsa Panth have been mandated to decide and work out and judge right from wrong and that is what Khalsa Panth has been doing from day one. We work out wrong and then we put a stop to it. That is why this section on beadbi exists to start! A place where you can report all that is wrong by the standards of tat gurmat, present video and other evidence , take a stand against beadbi , alert othyers and let a discussion start as to how to put a stop to it as all these actions snowball. With the advent of the electronic age all these sins are being brought to light and highlighted and I applaude those who have the steel and strength to take a stand for mainstream Sikhi and condemn such wrongful practises. This is NOT about being lawyers or judges or judgements . This is about understanding Tat Gurmat so you are not misled. This website takes clear stands on gurmat and beadbi because it is a place where many young Sikh youth come to learn the mainstream perspectives of Sikhi so they can become good mainstream Sikhs. You are expected to show no sympathy to any cults on here that have offshooted from Sikhism and claim to be Sikh when they have a continuing chain of human gurus and allow malpractises and are out of sync with mainstream Sikhism. Anyone who justifies the existence of such cults needs to seriously consider staying on further on this site and his/her own patriotism to mainstream Sikhism. It is important to come clean and take a clear stand against beadbi instead of dithering in the name of being a non judgemental person.

[Only five]

Slavery to god is 24/7, not stepping in a Gurdwarra and acting one way and indulging in maya once we step outside.

The Gurdwara has rules. One of the rules is not to dance in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Also another rule is that no one can come intoxicated or be doing any kind of drug on Gurdwara property. I agree slavery to God is 24/7. However the rules of the Gurdwara must be kept and no individual actions can alter them. Slavery to God 24/7 is an individual action that every individual should take up and it is an individual decision to do so. For example, say you were asked to come to court and take the stand. In the court room there is rules. A person can't speak when the judge is speaking or when the hearing, or trial is in process. If you speak when not asked to speak, then the judge gives a warning the first time. If it takes place again, then the judge can give a sentence of contempt. The judge orders for you to be arrested and to be removed from the court room. Either you will be given a fine or sentenced to jail for a term and a fine. Now say you were on the street, not on the court house property, can a person speak freely? Yes they can, as long as it is not causing distribance to others and is not slandering anyone. We have the right to freedom of speech. But these rights are limited, when we step into the court room and when we go to the Gurdwara. Another example is when Sri Akal Takht Sahib issued a Sandesh for not allow alcohol and manmat events to take place on Gurdwara property. Also the Gurdwara is visited by different religious people and people with no religion. All must follow the rules of the Gurdwara, otherwise they won't be let in or will be kicked out if a violation takes place. The same applies to anyone, which includes the neeldharis. What the neeldharis do in their own house is their business and they can clap dance or sing whatever they want. However when they enter the Gurdwara, they must follow the rules of Gurmat.

Yes sargun and nirgun are one and the same, however god has many faces through the khel, One who is everything, the slanderer, the saint, the gurmukh, the manmukh, the reality is that we are all just an amalgamtion of each other, pleasure and pain, light and dark, heaven and hell- we are the balance/nothing/truth/god himself. We are all god(Nothing, no image, no nothing, but the greatest nasha and treasure), we just don't acknowledge it 24/7 and we do not apply this truth to our lives.

Gurbani says the following to your writing:

Without destiny, the True Guru is not found, even though He sits within the home of our own inner being, always near and close at hand. There is ignorance within, and the pain of doubt, like a separating screen. Without meeting with the True Guru, no one is transformed into gold. The self-willed manmukh sinks like iron, while the boat is very close. || 3 || The Boat of the True Guru is the Name of the Lord. How can we climb on board? One who walks in harmony with the True Guru's Will comes to sit in this Boat. Blessed, blessed are those very fortunate ones, O Nanak, who are united with the Lord through the True Guru. || 4 || 3 || 67 || ang sung 40

You can proclaim everyone is gold, but Guru Sahib says even though God is inside of us, their is ignorance within and you are not gold. Also Guru Sahib goes further in the above Bani and describes what ignorance he is talking about. Guru Sahib says those that don't follow Guru Sahib will are self-willed manmukhs. Now if a person who drinks alcohol, does other drugs at home or at bars, Guru Sahib calls them lost in maya. This person goes to the Gurdwara, but does not drink on those days and does not drink afterwards. This shows the person understands their is rules to follow when he comes to the Gurdwara and he respects these rules. Maybe one day this person will realize that i should stop drinking alochol anywhere i go and step on Guru Sahib path. However what do you say to a person that doesn't even respect the rules at the Gurdwara and rules of following Gurmat outside of the Gurdwara like the neeldhari sect is doing? I can tell you that history speaks for itself. When the Masands were in charge of Gurdwaras and Satguru found out they were stealing sangats money, what did he do? The masands violated the rules of the Gurdwara, not to steal from the sangat. So Satguru took these Masand and burnt them alive. Now obviously there were robbers in the time of Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj, who stole from others homes and then came to do sangat of Guru Sahib. So my question to you is, how come Satguru didn't burn these robbers alive?

Taking shoes off, covering the head for a gurmukh is not a ritual act, as Truth is not confined to rituals..when a gurmukh steps into the gurwarra nobody need lay down any rules saying don't wear shoes.

Everyone should take on the task of becoming a Gurmukh, but what do you say to a person that disrespects the rules of the Gurdwara?

Everybody likes to quote the story of Satguru Nanak Ji's visit to mecca and how when his feet turned, so did the kaaba, but nobody likes to take the gyan of this story and apply it.

So your saying the Hukams from Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj are wrong? Also why did Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj bow down to Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj? By your understanding is that not going against the gyan of the kaaba story? Also Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj bowed down to Satguru Sri Guru Angad Dev ji Maharaj. By your understanding did Satguru go against his own teaching? I believe you have the concepts of nirgun and sargun very mixed up. Also what is in the kaaba that the Muslims are bowing down too? Is it the Koran, a stone, a picture, or something else. Also according to your understanding is Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, a religious text or more?

If a gurmukh takes shoes off as a sign of love respect, because of a feeling that god is telling them they should(all hukam) then they will do so- they will understand the meaning behind the act, remembering every moment that their beautiful lord is all pervading even in the greatest sinner, the peadophile, the rapist, the serial killer, the toilet, the temple, this is the message that Babaji in form wished to portray.

Please do read the Gurbani i provided. The shabad puts everything in context.

Nothing in this khel is real, that is what we're here to discover, this is the only treasure- the gurdwarra is a false place in the khel.

But it's imagery is there as a place(false) for the sinners(us) to relax and apply the truth, (so it is respected) and discover that it along with everything else is nothing.

How is the Gurdwara false, where are you getting this statement from?

Our gurus clearly stated that heaven and hell, pleasure and pain is exactly one and the same to the gurmukh- hence the state of mind of the gurus did not change in their experience of either one. Pain is seen as a great blessing to the gurmukh- All here is temporary and the greater the pain, the greater the detachment from the false. A thathi tavi was embraced by our beloved Guru ji, it was not just accepted, it was embraced. He is all pervading, he is the gurdwarra he is the thathi tavi, he is the torturer, the cross, he is Guru Nanak Dev Ji, he is satan.

Sri Vaheguru ji Maharaj is not satan, for satan is a creation of Sri Vaheguru ji Maharaj that has a beginning and an end. Sure Sri Vaheguru Ji Mahara is in satan as just as much as a good human. When the creation is destroyed then Satan will be destroyed. If Sri Vaheguru ji Mahara is satan then satan wouldn't die with the creation. And same applies to the creation. When you call certain person satan or a thing satan, then you are describing attributes pretaining to evil. In one of your other post you tell another to understand the first few words of Sri Mool Mantar Sahib. One of these words were without hatred. By going by what you said, how can Sri Vaheguru ji Maharaj be satan, when satan has hatred for Truth? Sri Vaheguru Ji Mahara is surely Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj because Guru Sahib doesn't have a beginning or end and is Sri Mool Mantar Sahib. See good in people or for that matter satan and being Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj as Sri Mool Mantar Sahib tells us is two different things.

[Only five]

We are not Judges here to or lawyers to judge others and issue summons. We should be more concerned about ourselves rather than passing judgement on others. SGGSJi is the judge and lawyer; He alone has the right to judge Neeldharis/and other Dharis and Us also. We donot even know that In the eyes of satguru, Who is right and who is wrong.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj being the judge, says don't dance in my presence. I provided a shabad by Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj on dancing as religous show of excitment. Didn't you read that shabad and read the part where Satguru speaks against it? Also Guru Sahib says don't come to the Gurdwara intoxicated on drugs. Sri Akal Takht Sahib has the right to punish those that dance in the presence of Satguru and they just did punish someone for dancing in Satguru's presence. So it as been already established that dancing in Satguru's presence is wrong.

[mohinder pal]

As i said, In the Eyes of Satguru, We donot know You is right and Who is wrong.

Satgur Mera Sadda Bakhshind.

[DustOfTheSaintsFeet]

How very dare you even in your wildest dreams ever think of me as someone disregarding the very first line of gurbani as simple romanticism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In the 54 years of my little life, this is THE MOST STUPID, UNINTELLIGENT, FALSE, AND RIDICULOUS ACCUSATION anyone ever made of me!

Well my friend let me quote you again "romanticist, theologically faulty, and hot potch preach on the omnipresence of God and how everything is ultimately His game when the issue at hand ". Nirboah and nirvair have everything to do with this issue, as does it have everything to do with every single moment of our lives in this khel. Living Nirboah and Nirvair or striving to live in Nirboah and nirvair are the aims of sikhi, it is the only way we are able to not think of, but to actually Feel truth in every single situation, whether it is on a forum whilst dealing with angry posters or establishing whether or not one is committing a beadbi.

If you are not living Nirboah and Nirvair in a moment, your judgement cannot be trusted for the judgement of a deluded man living the mindset of a demon(ie. no nirboah or nirvair) is not reliable and not accepted in His court.

The psychology of Kalyug as confirmed in Gurbani is demonic hence we are in the age of hell on earth. Until we physically begin to live in truth instead we cannot possibly move forward and face our karams head on with a balanced mindset as our Gurus did- instead we get angry when he feeds us dukh through others, we forget that it is Him Himsel feeding us the dukhi.

Even Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that God himself sent the Moghuls as the messengers of death in the Kalyug, they were simply karam.

We can take a stand against beadbi, I never spoke against that- however if we are to act properly and fairly it is imperative that we live in nirboah and nirvair throughout this situation, or else we are simply demons acting in delusion without recognising the truth that these people are god himself.

Sajjan thug was not murdered by Guru Ji when he made an attempt on his life, instead he was reformed. This is living Nirboah and nirvair- recognising divinity within one and speaking Sat to remind that being of their true nature. Guru Gobind Singh Ji asked his sikhs to kill their enemies quickly to avoid excessive pain- regardless of their horrific misdeeds against his sikhs and their families, i.e murder of their families, rape of their women and murder of their children. His army fed water to the image of the enemy.

This was true love, regardless of the image of the enemies in the khel and no matter how much pain god fed through the ignorant ones, he still recognised and accepted them as god. Our gurus spoke truth to the good and bad alike, they recognised that the goodness and badness is illusion, that there is no such thing as good and bad, they recognised Him everywhere in everything and saw enemies and friends as alike. This is truly beautiful, this is why the gurus were so incredibly amazing.

In sikhi we never move forward without living nirboah and nirvair, we never make Gurmat decisions without living nirboah and nirvair it is not only relavant, it is crucial to this path,it is god himself and living his virtues brings us closer to his truth.

I am no member of a sect or cult, all I spoke of was the first line of gurbani which is relevant every second to everyone every where and to every situation.

If you think it is not relevant to this situation, then so be it, but Nirvair and Nirboah is God himself, it is truth, and as Truth is omnipresent I'm not sure how it could not be relevant.

In fact, you can scrap this whole post and just read these words if you want, this is what I've been trying to say:

"Nirboah and Nirvair"

[humkire]

You have quoted me out of context!

Read my entire paragraph. It says '''!!!!! I do not understand the need for this romanticist, theologically faulty, and hot potch preach on the omnipresence of God and how everything is ultimately His game when the issue at hand which this thread is about is the videos showing a whole amount of neeldharee people dancing and clapping in the presence of Shree Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj which constitues an utterly serious beadbi for which people need to be questioned, warned, disciplined, and cautioned!!!!!''''''''

Now where do I in that paragraph have an issue with Mulmantar or with any of the individual shabads within Mulmantar? I don't for goodness sake!

If you slowed down and read that, the key word you keep missing is where I said 'this.... preach......'' i.e that entire post I quoted that you had written prior to that spelling out your views about a whole load of gurmat concepts, which a) are irrelevant to, do not fit in this beadbi section and, b)need correction in their understanding and interpretation.

I am afraid that you are beginning to give me an impression as someone who is hell-bent on spewing out a lot of preach about gurmat concepts, but without wanting to be corrected wherever necessary by others and I sense in your heart not nirvaerta but western type and American/Brit type 'vaer' where you argue using your intellect hiding an animosity towards someone who has dared to stand up against anything you have to say. You need to demonstrate nirvaerta in your words and life before you go around preaching it and you have to remember God is nirbhao but in gurmat, the expression of bhao is not to be confused with being stubborn brained, argumentative and always wanting to be defending your patch. You have to be fearless starting with your ability to look within yourself and fight your own ego for starters if you wish to see the qualities of nirbhao and nirvaerta that you seem to adore so much, shine through your personality. People on this forum are not stupid. If your post which I commented upon was theologically correct according to the ''kasvatee'' of gurmat, I would have commended you which is what I normally prefer to do because I do not exist on this forum to diminish anyone's self confidence but for the sake of learning myself and inspiring others. You would have done better had you allowed humility within you to help you see how I was only trying to improve and sharpen your understanding aboput key gurmat concepts you have mentioned . I even bothered to give you specific advice about what and where to read in order to develop a more well rounded, grounded, holistic and clear understanding of gurmat concepts you have been floating about here.

Your energies are well suited for doing a lot of parchar so that would be my advice. Channel your inspiration for Nirbhao and Nirvaer and all the other understandings you have derived about gurmat, by having a close circle of friends and read around a lot to help you be clearer of Sikhi/Gurmat/Sikh ithiyaas etc and then having a strategy for having a jatha so you could go around various countries meeting Sikh youth everywhere and doing Sikhi parchar. That is how you ought to be channeling your energies than to waste them trying to argue with a simple small person like me. There are plenty of Sikh children, Sikh youth everywhere who need to be hearing all the stories of Sikhism that you have read, rather than trying to post them in a small section of this website dedicated to beadbi issues.

Having said that, I think you now need to shift your focus back on track to the various issues concerning the beadbi this thread tried to highlight that I have spelled out in point form earlier up. Yor quarrel needs to be with the neeldharees, not me. So do type away all you like about what you have researched about this group. how their theology differs from gurmat, why they pose a threat, why they are wrong, how they ought to be admonished, how to prevent cults to arise and so on. This is important and relevant in this section because many Sikh youths visit this site and need to be alerted and made aware of such cults, how they manipulate, how they pervert , and how to avoid them. That is what this thread is about and the section is about.

[DustOfTheSaintsFeet]

Like gurbani says, nirboah and nirvair,

He is One and so are we. If we read mool mantar with an open heart, we would realise this. There is no good or bad, no true or false, just hukam, karam. Some are led to truth, some are led astray. We each partake in the game he has written for us of self discovery, all eventually discovering that we are all one and the same- we had just ignored and became attached to certain aspects of ourselves, suppressing the others(satan is god, he just supresses/ignores parts of himself(darkness/ignorance), does not embrace nirboah and nirvair- he is the whole of creation and beyond as are we and anyone else), so he fed us dukh, he hit us in the form of bad people and slanderers, only to get us back to the balance again through our bhagti, it is all fearless love(Nirboah, nirvair) on His part, he knows we may harbour ill will against him but he does it for our own benefit and ultimate joy.

When we embrace and accept the whole, the good and bad, pleasure and pain as One, as simple, fearless and pure love, that is when the One, our true natures are discovered again.

Nirboah and Nirvair, it's simple, it can't be twisted. Disregard everything I've wrote and do naam simran on these two simple words with an open heart- truly feel what they are.