Full Stop After A Sentence In Gurmukhi

[Balbir Singh 10]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal,

Dear all,

At the end of a sentence in English and many European languages, the full stop is a dot. In Hindi and many Indian languages it is a vertical line (a dandi). In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee it is a pair of vertical lines (a double dandee). Why?

Can somebody please explain it? Why Gurdev used a double dandee at the end of a sentence? I will be grateful.

Balbir Singh

[alias 128]

in the old hand written original granths, the writing used to be joined up so that no one could add anythng or take anything away, amongst other reasons. at the start and end of a sentance, there used to be a little 'flick down' of the top base line. when gurbani became split up into the words, these flick-downz became the standard bisraam, aka full stop, as we know them today.

this pic below is more recent, and is most likely to be after the time of the original handwritten scripts.

but u can notice how, the bisraam came about.

other people may say that its cuz sanskrit has the same 2 lines. though this is the case, gurbani gave the fullstop its own 'revised' form.. u can look at it like this.

old sanskrit texts have seperate letters seperated with a dot. then it became words win the bisram as we know it.

so there is a similarity. but, the flick down of the top (base)line, is the reason why we have the bisraam.

hope this helps.

[Balbir Singh 10]

Alias Jii,

I thank you a lot for your efforts.

Have I understood it correctly? Gurdev used Bisraam at the start and end of a sentence with two vertical parallel lines so that no one could add anything or take anything away.

Balbir Singh

[jagminder84 16]

Alias Jii,

I thank you a lot for your efforts.

Have I understood it correctly? Gurdev used Bisraam at the start and end of a sentence with two vertical parallel lines so that no one could add anything or take anything away.

Balbir Singh

you can also think of the double vertical lines as a full full stop- if you know what i mean in the sense that guru sahib is telling us to read gurbani slowly doing vichar of each line and not to read mechanically.You can take it as a hukam to pause after every line to comtemplate the meaning. :smile2:

[Balbir Singh 10]

Satsriakaal Jagminder84 Jii,

Thanks. Your suggestion is precious. A full full stop may be a double stop or a longer pause after a sentence. But sometimes I am still after a word from Gurdev. What should I do?

This is the reason I am not participating as a paathii in Akhand Paath sewa. May I have a double stop after a word also or it is allowed only after a complete sentence? Please suggest me. I will be grateful.

Balbir Singh

[jagminder84 16]

Satsriakaal Jagminder84 Jii,

Thanks. Your suggestion is precious. A full full stop may be a double stop or a longer pause after a sentence. But sometimes I am still after a word from Gurdev. What should I do?

This is the reason I am not participating as a paathii in Akhand Paath sewa. May I have a double stop after a word also or it is allowed only after a complete sentence? Please suggest me. I will be grateful.

Balbir Singh

Satsriakaal bhaji, i don't actually have that much gian myself, i am on this forum mostly to learn :smile2: but since you kindly asked i would think that after one line a slightly longer pause then usual (as you do when reading a textbook carefully for example) will do just to absorb the meaning of the line for your own benefit when doing sehej path for instance, and the same would apply for akhand path. but the pause should not be too long that will disrupt the flow of the path otherwise the akhand will not finish on the time usually allocated. Nanaksar gurdwara usually do a different type of akhand path where after each line a specific shabad from sri guru granth sahib is read and this is done thoughout the akhand path so the akhand path time is longer (i heard giani thukar singh ji mention that this form of akhand path is written in a dairy of a gursikh at hazoor sahib at the time of the joti-jot of guru gobind singh ji when gursikhs asked maharaj for hukams on what they should do and not do after he left for sachkhand).

Also, I don't think there is a specific hukam of maharaj mentioning this from the back of my knowledge from hukamnama's or from any history books I have read (i may be wrong) but adding two vertical lines would of been unique back in the days when maharaj recited the bani and it definitely has a significance behind it just like the addition of the name of a raag before each shabad. i just feel that the reason I have mentioned may be the reason behind it but it could be something else as well.

You should definitely participate in being a paathii in Akhand Paath sewa (i wish i was like you). It’s sad that some, if not most pathi in Akhand Paath sewa read really fast that i can't understand what they are saying- thats my experience anyways.There’s no need to worry about how slow to read gurbani as long as it is clear, flows nicely and makes sense to the sangat but do get advice from gursikhs who regularly read and teach the recitiation of gurbani in the case that i am wrong which i am most of the time.

thanks for being so humble to ask. :smile2:

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke feteh!

[jagminder84 16]

Anyone know how to delete post on this forum- i think i accidently clicked two many times- dodgy internet connection.

[Balbir Singh 10]

Satsriakaal Joginder84 Jii,

Thanks, for answering my post.

May I ask if it is a rule to pause longer after a sentence?

Paathiis doing Akhand Paath, I feel, are often ignoring the full full stop. In other words they are not reading it at all or enjoying the double pause. Did Gurdev instruct somewhere that the double dandee after a sentence is not to read? It may be only to inform the reader that the sentence is over now. May I ask why this double dandee is not read whereas all other signs, numbers and letters from Guru Granth Saahib Jii are read?

Still, it would be great to know what inspired Gurdev to use two dandees after a sentence. After all it is the most used sign in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jii.

Strange, I also do not find a comma in Gurdev's sentences.

Balbir Singh

[alias 128]

there are 3 types of bisraams. 1. alup (means 'a little bit') 2. arad (means 'half') 3. alup (again)

say u have a sentance

XXXX XX XXXX XX XXXX XX XXXX II

the alup bisraam is a comma, the half bisraam is a semi colon.

so, it could go summin like this.>>>>

XXXX XX, XXXX XX; XXXX, XX XXXX II

<<<<

and, u can think of the double lines to be read by a pause. or, be read in your thoughts as a full line.

simple amswer is, wen u read anything, in any language, you dont read punctuation. same in gurmukhi.

[Balbir Singh 10]

Satsriakaal Alias Jee,

Your answer is very helpful. Have I understood it correctly? Gurdev has used a comma and a semi colon in a sentence but it is invisible. A full full stop is but visible and has a use also. It is different that a reader may not be using it purposely.

Perhaps one should not take an alup and a half bisraam while reading the sentence. So, Gurdev did not use a comma or a semi colon in His Hymns.

I want excuse from God because many times I was still with one word from Gurdev. It may be working as one Naam. It is not possible for me to complete the sentence in such situations.

Preachers may be some very privileged folk. They begin to repeat a Guru's Stanza from their memory for explaining it and come to a full full stop after an hour or so. They must be having Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee in their brain like others have Him in a Gurdwara building.

You wrote "simple amswer is, wen u read anything, in any language, you dont read punctuation. same in gurmukhi."

You may be right in case of reading anything in any language also Punjabi. The reader does not read punctuation.

May I ask if a reader should ignore something while reading the Guru's words or listening Him?

My curiosity is remaining. Why Gurdev used two vertical lines (Dandees) after a sentence and not something else?

Humbly

Balbir Singh

[S1ngh 1,930]

And respectfully veerji, why this is bothering you? Tomorrow we can start saying why guru jee started gurmukhi script. It is not wise to keep questioning why our guru sahib jee did this or that.

[Balbir Singh 10]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal,

S1ngh Veerji, this question has made me curious when reached in mind. I feel now this is bothering some readers.

Language and its Script are the tools to communicate that is helpful to develop specially for a region and its people. Gurmukhi, in my understanding, is the language used and developed by the true Gurus. Its tools are effective also for the spiritual development.

We are entangled normally with the outer world through our senses. Gurbani incites us to learn and move toward God residing in our core on the inner path.

The signs occurring in the Gurmukhi script may be indicating the milestones on the spiritual path. Some may have not become aware of it. Their spiritual journey is yet to start perhaps.

You wrote "It is not wise to keep questioning why our guru sahib jee did this or that."

Is it not wise to know, for example, why Guru Sahib Jii suggested 'naraayan kehte narak na jaaii? . Should we ask or crush such questions in us?

Balbir Singh

[alias 128]

the alap and arad bisraams are given by guruji as per gurbani grammer. its a well known fact that if you pause in the wrong place, the meaning is changed. so if u dont want to pause where u should, that is up to your own mut.

and as for you quoting me,

u do read the punctuation, but u dont say, "then the table was empty Full STOP" you dont say the words "full stop" .!

you 'quoting' me in the way you have tells me that you just want to argue, rather than think about what others have written.

anyone reading "S1ngh" 's post can gather that he means to say to you, dont ask questions that need not be asked (at least thats what iv gathered). yet, you quote him as well to try and 'disprove' him.

if somone wanted to know, what the function of the bisraam is, then this is good for knowledge e.g. alup arad and poora. but what you ask, is why is it 2 lines?!

this is like askin, why is the letter 'A' in english written like a triangle, or an arrow. you may as well ask why is the punjabi akhar 'sassa' written as such when it doesnt even look like an 's' sound. ther is no point in asking needless questions like this.

[alias 128]

and as for your gurbani quote, narayan khete narak na jaee, what on earth are you questioning here? are u saying that its on to ask "why is it that if you jup naam ou go to heaven"?? again a needless question!!!!!!!! (if this is indeed what you ask.).

u again, may as well ask why are we alive en we breathe..

(this gurbani tuk means that "if you jup naam, you dont go to hell")

if you think that this tuk is a question, you bisraam is in the wrong place!!!!!!!!

gufateh..

o_o