~ Luis Riel Side By Side Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale In Vaisakhi Nagar Kirtan~

[N30S1NGH]

Jonny101,

You are right may not be appealing to general sikh public but if float is labeled around theme of celebrating diversity of revolutionary leaders, it just might. On another note, I must remind also on a bit related point from theological point of view, our philosophy is quite open in terms- we have accepted bhagats of other dharams in our scriptures, our guru's looked at the jevan mukht avastha of these individuals regardless of their mystic traditions in their dharam they belong to..this is no where to compare with the main topic in hand..just i m just comparing different community dynamics with uniqueness of our community based on this very fact.

I mean my whole point of this post is - it won't be out of line of gurmat to hold such float showing various oppression fighting warriors, revolutionary leaders across the globe being celebrated and paid respect to based on uniqueness of our community based on guru sahib ideals.

[Only five]

With all due respect to bhramgyani sant jarnail singh ji bhindranwale, the fact he was not only bhramgyani but revolutionary leader as well.

Was Louis Riel a bhramgyani? Why stop at Sant ji, if its not disrespect. Put up a picture of Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj and Louis Riel side by side on the basis both were revolutionary leaders. Sikhs that understand and love Satguru will object to such display's because Satguru was not JUST a revolutionary leader, but Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj himself. Maharaj was the Sargun Saroop of Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. Sant ji in a similar way reached the same state and is the true definition of a SaintSoldier. Like you said in your first post, pictures speak a thousand words. In the true since, your picture speaks negatively and brings Sant ji's name down. But not only Sant ji and also disrespects Sikhi, since Sant ji was living in Gurmat.

Once pictures of various revolutionary leaders are put side by side , any person with distinction(bibek buddhi) can see pictures it as- its the revolutionary attribute of each individual are being celebrated because of similiarties not the whole life. (We can even put that in writing under neath the picture).

In your first post you say pictures speak thousands of words, but now you want to limit how people see it!! The picture of Sant ji put up brings up negative names for Sant ji, that he went against Gurmat. Now you want to put up a picture of a man next to Sant ji that didn't even follow Gurmat. What thousands of insults do you think people will come up with now. Regardless what people think, the idea is not allowed since Sant ji was not just some revolutionary leader.

On this very note: We also pay respects to baba banda singh bahudar pictures in nagar kirtan floats once you read his life, there are things he has done in his lifetime which may not aligned with Gurmat. One can equally argue if they look at things only - black and white, putting his picture is not aligned with gurmat because some of things which has done in his lifetime. But this mindset is wrong, depending on context of float if its themed around sipahi and revolutionary figures then we can celebrate - revolutionary attribute of each individual across the globe.

Baba Banda Singh Bahudar is a Sikh, was Louis Riel a Sikh? Some people like to make up stories of Baba Banda Singh Bahudar because their group couldn't do what he did and still can't do it and they call themselves warriors. Now you have changed your plans for the float, first it was put Sant ji and Louis Riel picture side by side to have a float of sipahi. This is another problem since Sikhi defines a sipahi differently. In Sikhi the Sipahi part is recognized because the person has love and respect for Satguru from the inside and the person's actions only have meaning since they have respect from the inside for Satguru. Did Louis Riel leave this earth as a Shaheed?

Look only reason i m suggesting this, its because to gain some sort of support as i said its not to please European settlers here..But its about reaching out to groups which has suffered just like us to find a middle ground to support each other and just to try change negative public opinion.

Then reach out using Gurmat ways that don't bring Sant ji's name down. Go into the aboriginal community and offer them your time and support, if your an expert in an field and they need help from a professional from this field, then give them a hand. Go talk to the leaders of the aboriginal groups and hold a meeting where Sikhs and aboriginal people can get together for evening, where they can share, what took place in each community. There are many ways to gain support and give support without hurting Sant ji's name. The aboriginal community is broken down because the canadian government beat them down. They need Sikhs help and not the other way around. Putting up a picture of Sant ji with Louis Riel will only cause confusion and get many Sikhs ready to rip whoever put the pictures up apart.

Sikhs live in multi-cultural soceity but most importantly we promote humanity- champions of human rights, cannot and should not always to segregate themselves into their own ghetto, we should reach out to similar groups and with same suffering, pay respect to same fearlessness warrior leaders of other groups and be united as one voice, join in their cause because we should be champions of human rights because our own guru's are example of this.

Before this above quote you write similar leaders now you are saying louis Riel and Sant ji as the same fearlessness warriors. Now you sound like the people who equate Bir Rass to anger. Louis Riel killed a person because he wanted to set an example the Metis were not to be taken lightly. Tells us where Sant ji said such things are allowed? I already gave many different ways to reach out to the aboriginal community.

Otherwise not only we fail to follow ideals of our guru sahiban which giving life unconditionally for other groups who are oppressed but also we fail to change perception of others regarding our nagar kirtan - tribal people, tribal groups, tribal issues self interested group trying to shove tribal issues of their countries to throat of Canadians...quite frankly thats how everyone see us here in Canada.

So if we don't put up a picture of Sant ji and louis Riel, then we are not following Gurmat? Again the picture will bring Sant ji's name down. You want to help the aboriginal community, then send the message out using a Gurmat way. Go set up meetings with their leaders and ask them where they need help, teach them to help themselves, teach them about Sikhi leaders and how they helped the Sikh community. Gather up the the youth and meet with the aboriginal community. There are many things that can be done to help the aboriginal community, without hurting Sant ji's name.

[N30S1NGH]

Was Louis Riel a bhramgyani? Why stop at Sant ji, if its not disrespect. Put up a picture of Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj and Louis Riel side by side on the basis both were revolutionary leaders. Sikhs that understand and love Satguru will object to such display's because Satguru was not JUST a revolutionary leader, but Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj himself. Maharaj was the Sargun Saroop of Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. Sant ji in a similar way reached the same state and is the true definition of a SaintSoldier. Like you said in your first post, pictures speak a thousand words. In the true since, your picture speaks negatively and brings Sant ji's name down. But not only Sant ji and also disrespects Sikhi, since Sant ji was living in Gurmat

Louis Riel/Che Guvera is not a bhramgyani but so wasn't shaheed bhagat singh or shaheed udham singh (yet their pictures are on nagar kirtan). Louis Reil is considered shaheed by First nation people...same goes with Che Guvera... Both are considered matyrs and died for the cause just just like sant jarnail singh bhindranwale, bhagat singh or udham singh did.

So yea if shaheed bhagat singh/shaheed udham singh ji picture is put up in collage of sant-sipahi pictures, why not in the name of diversity in name of public relations, somehow winning public opnion, why not him?.

Thats a sticking point.

Put up a picture of Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj and Louis Riel side by side on the basis both were revolutionary leaders In the true since, your picture speaks negatively and brings Sant ji's name down... So if we don't put up a picture of Sant ji and louis Riel, then we are not following Gurmat?

You are putting words in my mouth when you are implying somehow i have belittle sant ji name down, and top of it blowing out of proparation bringing satguru revolunary character into this discussion. That was not my intention, it may be yours.

Ok fine to accomdate hyper senstiveness of people, lets take sant ji picture out of this discussion, would you happy to have bhagat udham singh/bhagat singh side by side with loius riel/ che guvera?

But now the issue is- no one of this comparison would address current human rights issue sikhs and other miniorties are having in India? Isn't that ultimate goal in organizers of vaishakhi nagar kirtan as opposed to concentrating soley on the main theme which is - V A I S H A K H I 1699/ event surronding it

I will be straight up and set the record the straight, this is what how i perceive things and most western see things:

1. Sikhs mixing vaishakhi event with 1984 by highly concentrating on 1984 rather equally having floats of sikh vs mughal era, baba bir singh ji nurangabad matyrdom era going in chornogoical order.

2. V a i s h a k h i event gets diluted, media takes control, captalizes events on 1984/air india bombing because of pictures of some contoversial figures (which our door knob leaders refuse to take down), once again prove us to be - terrorist.

3. Regular person attending vaishakhi or watching the coverage/clips on T.V, once again perceive us- tribal people, tribal issues, tribal groups bringing issues to Canadian streets, jaming streets in cost of tax payer money.

4. Divine events surronding V A I S H A K H I gets missed and beauty of panj pyares coming all different race and caste together and drinking amrit from same batta(symbolism of equality) gets missed.

5. All hard work of volunteers, free food for people all that gets overlooked in the outdoor nagar kirtan.

Now i m trying to provide suggestions of how things can improve by tweakings few things a little bit, not a drastic change- just a small change so canadians in general can relate figures with their own in pictorial format, and i m being accused of insulting bhramgyani sant jarnail singh bhindranwale.

Ok fine, you guys carry on, just wake me up when vaishakhi nagar kirtan is strictly on - divine events on 1699 surronding vaishakhi or you guys making drastic efforts to educate regular joe blow canadian regarding floats (including diversity example stated in this thread was one form) rather having picture of sikhs or sikh kid holding ak 47.

[Only five]

Louis Riel/Che Guvera is not a bhramgyani but so wasn't shaheed bhagat singh or shaheed udham singh (yet their pictures are on nagar kirtan). Louis Reil is considered shaheed by First nation people...same goes with Che Guvera... Both are considered matyrs just just like bhagat singh or udham singh.

Bhagat Singh and Udham Singh are Sikhs Was Louis Riel a Sikh? Was Louis Riel a shaheed by Gurmat standards?

So yea if shaheed bhagat singh/shaheed udham singh ji picture is put up in collage of sant-sipahi pictures, why not in the name of diversity in name of public relations, somehow winning public opnion, why not him?.

Thats a sticking point.

Stick to the topic here, you wanted to put Sant ji's picture up with Louis Riel. Now you are changing it and it still isn't right because Louis Riel was not a Sikh or a Shaheed by Gurmat Standards. How is a man that killed another to set an example a Shaheed?

You are putting words in my mouth when you are implying somehow i have belittle sant ji name down, and top of it blowing out of proparation bringing satguru revolunary character into this discussion. That was not my intention, it may be yours.

I have already showed you how you will be slandering Sant ji's name. If you can't understand how you will be doing that, then it is your problem. The the basis both communities have suffered in similar ways and both communities had according you to same fearless warriors and revolutionary leaders to stand up against oppression, you want to put up Sant ji's and Louis Riel picture up side by side. So by your logic of thinking Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj is also a fearless warrior and a revolutionary leader. So by your thinking it is only correct to say Satguru's photo and Louis Riel photo can go up side by side. But you don't accept this idea because Satguru was not just some fearless warrior and revolutionary leader. Satguru was much more and by the same notion you should understand Sant ji is more than just some fearless warrior and revolutionary leader; Sant ji is a Brahmgyani and Saintsoldier. Again try to understand first and then start making accusations of who's putting words in your mouth.

I have shown how your idea is wrong. Accept it or don't. If a person puts Sant ji's picture up with someone like Louis Riel, then expect a reaction, which will not be in your favour, by the people you will call fanatics, extermist, taliban, or whatever name you can think of. After their reaction then you will seriously labeling them as extremist and the media can start calling Sikhs again as terrorist.

What you wrote below is a way to justify your wrong idea with some other wrong ideas. I am done discussing with you on this as you want to stick to your idea and not recognize your wrong idea. You keep dragging in other topics just to cloud the original discussion. First stick to the topic and then discuss.

Ok fine to accomdate hyper senstiveness of people, lets take sant ji picture out of this discussion, would you happy to have bhagat udham singh/bhagat singh side by side with loius riel/ che guvera?

But now the issue is- no one of this comparison would address current human rights issue sikhs and other miniorties are having in India? Isn't that ultimate goal in organizers of vaishakhi nagar kirtan as opposed to concentrating soley on the main theme which is - V A I S H A K H I 1699/ event surronding it

I will be straight up and set the record the straight, this is what how i perceive things and most western see things:

1. Sikhs mixing vaishakhi event with 1984 by highly concentrating on 1984 rather equally having floats of sikh vs mughal era, baba bir singh ji nurangabad matyrdom era going in chornogoical order.

2. V a i s h a k h i event gets diluted, media takes control, captalizes events on 1984/air india bombing because of some contoversial figures (which our door knob leaders refuse to take down), once again prove us to be - terrorist.

3. Regular person attending vaishakhi or watching the coverage/clips on T.V, once again perceive us- tribal people, tribal issues, tribal groups bringing issues to Canadian streets, jaming streets in cost of tax payer money.

4. Divine events surronding V A I S H A K H I gets missed and beauty of panj pyares coming all different race and caste together and drinking amrit from same batta(symbolism of equality) gets missed.

5. All hard work of volunteers, free food for people all that gets overlooked.

Now i m trying to provide suggestions of how things can improve by tweakings few things a little bit, not a drastic change- just a small change so canadians in general can relate figures with their own in pictorial format, and i m being accused of insulting bhramgyani sant jarnail singh bhindranwale.

Ok fine, you guys carry on, just wake me up when vaishakhi nagar kirtan is strictly on - divine events on 1699 surronding vaishakhi or you guys making drastic efforts to educate regular joe blow canadian regarding floats (including diversity was one form) rather having picture of someone/some kid holding ak 47.

[N30S1NGH]

I have already showed you how you will be slandering Sant ji's name. If you can't understand how you will be doing that, then it is your problem. The the basis both communities have suffered in similar ways and both communities had according you to same fearless warriors and revolutionary leaders to stand up against oppression, you want to put up Sant ji's and Louis Riel picture up side by side. So by your logic of thinking Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj is also a fearless warrior and a revolutionary leader. So by your thinking it is only correct to say Satguru's photo and Louis Riel photo can go up side by side. But you don't accept this idea because Satguru was not just some fearless warrior and revolutionary leader. Satguru was much more and by the same notion you should understand Sant ji is more than just some fearless warrior and revolutionary leader; Sant ji is a Brahmgyani and Saintsoldier. Again try to understand first and then start making accusations of who's putting words in your mouth.

May i just point you collage of pictures of controversial questionable sikhs let alone shaheeds side by side- bhramgyani sant jarnail singh ji bhindranwale to point out double standards/hypocrisy?

You cannot have it both ways, if you are sticking to your principle(which i respect due to sensitiveness may not agree with respect the difference in opinion)- if you are sticking to your principle- then you must also make a effort to remove pictures of controversial questionable sikhs let alone shaheeds side by side with sant ji picture in the collage. I don't see that happening regardless of the verdict in the court, its the same verdict acquitted two men..we all guilty of living in denial, spineless to acknowledge some accountablity, live in la la land to think all labelled shaheeds are actually shaheeds just because they are labelled as such.

If all who are labelled as sants may or may not be sants (eg- thug pehova-rapist), if all who are labelled as prof may or may not be prof (eg- prof darshan lal-heretic) than how come we are so certain that all labelled as shaheeds are actually shaheeds not cold blooded murders/terrorist.??

So yea, peace of advise- please sort out questionable controversial questionable sikhs let alone shaheeds in sant-sipahi collage side by side with sant jarnail singh bhindranwale picture in it before getting worked up by suggestion of having poster of loius reil in collage or side by side- sant jarnail singh bhindranwale, shaheed bhagat singh, shaheed udham singh because all they died for cause and were revolutionary leader.

[Only five]

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May i just point you collage of pictures of controversial questionable sikhs let alone shaheeds side by side- bhramgyani sant jarnail singh ji bhindranwale to point out double standards/hypocrisy?

You cannot have it both ways, if you are sticking to your principle(which i respect due to sensitiveness may not agree with respect the difference in opinion)- if you are sticking to your principle- then you must also make a effort to remove pictures of controversial questionable sikhs let alone shaheeds side by side with sant ji picture in the collage. I don't see that happening regardless of the verdict in the court, its the same verdict acquitted two men..we all guilty of living in denial, spineless to acknowledge some accountablity, live in la la land to think all labelled shaheeds are actually shaheeds just because they are labelled as such.

If all who are labelled as sants may or may not be sants (eg- thug pehova-rapist), if all who are labelled as prof may or may not be prof (eg- prof darshan lal-heretic) than how come we are so certain that all labelled as shaheeds are actually shaheeds not cold blooded murders/terrorist.??

So yea, peace of advise- please sort out questionable controversial questionable sikhs let alone shaheeds in sant-sipahi collage side by side with sant jarnail singh bhindranwale picture in it before getting worked up by suggestion of having poster of loius reil in collage or side by side- sant jarnail singh bhindranwale, shaheed bhagat singh, shaheed udham singh because all they died for cause and were revolutionary leader.

After such post, no need to take you seriously on this topic. Yes, i'm spineless, hypocrite, have a double standard and whatever other slander you can dish out in my direction, please do so.

[N30S1NGH]

Sorry it was general comment towards general attitude of sikhs towards topic on "labeling of shaheeds"/similiar topic that we are discussing which may or may not apply to you, you know better about yourself than i do...sorry if i sounded judgemental.

[Only five]

Sorry it was general comment towards general attitude of sikhs towards topic on "labeling of shaheeds"/similiar topic that we are discussing which may or may not apply to you, you know better about yourself than i do...sorry if i sounded judgemental.

You quote my post and then even address the quoted post of mine in the form as "you", and now your saying it wasn't directed at me? Whatever works in your favour, thats fine with me.......LOL......

Instead of playing the game where is Waldo.....let's play who can spot the "you".....lol

[N30S1NGH]

You quote my post and then even address the quoted post of mine in the form as "you", and now your saying it wasn't directed at me? Whatever works in your favour, thats fine with me.......LOL......

Instead of playing the game where is Waldo.....let's play who can spot the "you".....lol

What does we mean in my post? I will bold it for you:

we all guilty of living in denial, spineless to acknowledge some accountablity, live in la la land to think all labelled shaheeds are actually shaheeds just because they are labelled as such.

Anyway, if you want more clarification please use pm to contact me, we don't want this beautiful topic *LOCKED* due to one on one chit chat, do we now?

[Only five]

What does we mean in my post? I will bold it for you:

we all guilty of living in denial, spineless to acknowledge some accountablity, live in la la land to think all labelled shaheeds are actually shaheeds just because they are labelled as such

Umm we are playing where is the "you" in this thread now. OOOO I understand, you didn't play the game where is waldo when you were younger. No problem, I'll explain in very simple words. Count how many "you" you put in the post addressed to me with the direct insults at Shaheed Singhs and at me. Then take those "you" as see where they were placed. Then read the sentence or paragraph, which keeps everything in context. But if you want we can also play the game called.......I just wasted my time with you............so BYE