Parable Of The Gardener

[SeekingTheLight]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I'm studying philosophy and ethics at the moment and have come across something that has some what challenged my thinking. Whilst studying the topic of religious language I came across Antony Flew. He argues that a religious individual dies a 'death of a thousand qualifications'. This is his his interpretation of John Wisdom's parable of the gardener. To some it up, basically two individuals are travelling and come across a well kept garden in a clearing of a woods. The believer argues there must be a gardener to maintain it and the other says there is no empirical proof. They both camp to see if a gardener appears but no sign. However the believer continuously justifies reasons for his existence; saying he is invisible and undetectable. He compares this to a believer of God. How they justify God's existence through any means.

I don't know what to make of this. Would be grateful for someone to give me a Sikhi prospective on this please. :blink2:

Fateh

[TejiKaur]

well according to sikhi and grbani there are three main deaths

one is death of the body the physical which is nothing and all who walk this earth will face this death

two is a death of zameer or spirit ,when someone can be beautiful smart rich but still they do not live inside, they dont have union with God and their spirit is dead while they are alive, most of the world is dead in this death

the third death is a death that some rare and lucky people have faced and it is death of the nijj, the self, the mind, the ego , this death is blessed because in death of the ego lies life of the soul, this is when people realize ananad and they can see and expiriance God within them - Sikhism is not about believing in the gardener, Sikhism is about expiriancing, through loving devotional worship, when Guru Gobind Singh Ji talks about who a Khalsa is his first condition is jagat jot, one whose inner light (ie the soul the image of God) is awakened, so one who has expirienced God, its not about waiting for the gardener Gurbani tells us Turak na chaa bharmiya chaa- dont kill your doubts (on rituals on God on logic) but kill doubt it self (expiriance Gods love so no doubt remains)- here both those in the garden are looking outwards to justify God to others, in Sikhi there is no need, you must look inwards to find God in yourself and once this happens your need to show other and be right will itself go away

[SeekingTheLight]

Thanks Bhenji.. But I was more confused of the addition of attributes rather than doubting existence.

[MokhamSingh]

Khalsa Ji

In order to see the creator one must first recognise oneself. Milk contains butter but we cannot see it. Wood contains fire but we can't see it. The creator exists within us but the milk needs to first churned. The wood needs to rubbed in order to produce fire. In order to see the creator there has to be a desire but unfortunately the mind desires lust , anger , ego , attachment , and greed etc. I. e . there is. no room for Prakash to take place. The mind is full to the brim with materialism , just need to make room for some spirituality and then one will start to see the creator everywhere.

Waheguru.

[tuhintuhin]

waheguru ji there's one sakhi....

one mahatma is doing the bhagti and a man mukh came and said if God exits then he show show him. Mahatma ji said ke God can be felt but not seen like materialistic things........but manmukh kept asking the same.......when Mahatma ji realized that this person won't understand like this.....he picked up a stone and threw at the manmukh.....manmukh got hurt on his forehead......Manmukh abused mahatma ji for what he had done....mahatma ji said why are you abusing me for...what have I done.....manmukh said you hurt me ..mahatma ji said where...he said on the forehead...mahhtma ji said he can't see anything...manmukh said he's feeling pain....mahatma ji asked him to show pain...manmukh said are you mad....how can pain be seen....mahatma ji then said same way God can not be seen but he's everywhere........taking care of each and everything beyond our expectation........

attributes.... nirgun saroop of waheguru ji.....just parkash..... need kirpa to see and feel it....

[SeekingTheLight]

waheguru... I do see now.

[kullykhalsa]

brilliant question,

if i have understood this correctly than the flew is basically saying that the other person who views the garden doesnt suggest a gardener but once the religious person who initially stated there had to be a gardener comes up short he then "qualifies" this by adding on modifications to prove he is right.

I dont think ive ever read anything in sikhi in regard to this mainly because i imagine it being an atheist argument. But in sikhi our statements are qualified to us already w have not had to make further qualifications.

[SeekingTheLight]

brilliant question,

if i have understood this correctly than the flew is basically saying that the other person who views the garden doesnt suggest a gardener but once the religious person who initially stated there had to be a gardener comes up short he then "qualifies" this by adding on modifications to prove he is right.

I dont think ive ever read anything in sikhi in regard to this mainly because i imagine it being an atheist argument. But in sikhi our statements are qualified to us already w have not had to make further qualifications.

Thanks.... My insight on this is a lot clearer now :biggrin2:

[dalsingh101]

Turak na chaa bharmiya chaa-<br />

Could you provide us with the ang of maharaj where this is from Teji Kaur bhen ji?</div>

[tuhintuhin]

Seekinglight ji.......to add .....ik maa vi gardner hi hundi hai jo apne fulaan varge bacheyaan nu paaldi posdi hai.......ik teacher vi gardner hai jo ena phul booyteya nu pani naal sinjda hai, spiritual guru, mahatma, mahapurkh vi gardner han jo ena phulaan di anderli bhukh mitaunde han naam japake........eh sare waheguru ji de sargun sarrop han, ik maa, teacher te mahapurkhaan de roop vich.........ona da nirgun saroop har thaan vicher reha, oh sadi odon vi sambaal karda jadon sargun saroop vich koi maali kol na howe.......