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Moved Discussion - Sufism

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Fanatic Islamic forces did quite well around the world converting people by force, but as you rightly said, India was another ball game all together as the ideology of dharma was more rooted within society than anywhere else, much if India did resist, battles were won and lost, this was more the Mughal regimes tactic. Either convert or die, however the sufi sant movement, with their devotional singing enchanting people hearts and minds focused on the similarity of the all pervading god with the people of the Indus, not the difference. They sang of the one gods love spreading the Ideology of equality of his creation. Rather than having a sword on your neck and being told to convert, these sufi sant were able to convert masses of Indians with this approach such as dhan dhan baba sheikh fareed!

As to whether we should not really highlight the Mughal aspect, I think we have to as its a complete historical saga, not just one episode. Like for e.g the ghallugara what took place at Shri harmandhir sahib in 1984 was a due to a whole back log of events starting from 1947, so I feel that the whole history should be told, as then the sikhs actions are justified because we had 5 gurus who were more orientated around the Bhakti movement until Shiri guru hargobind mahraj who gave us martial status and we became Bhakti and shakti orientated.

Nice topic pra

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the sufi sant movement, with their devotional singing enchanting people hearts and minds focused on the similarity of the all pervading god with the people of the Indus, not the difference. They sang of the one gods love spreading the Ideology of equality of his creation. Rather than having a sword on your neck and being told to convert, these sufi sant were able to convert masses of Indians with this approach such as dhan dhan baba sheikh fareed!

The Sufis came only after India was bruised by repeated Islamic invasions. They did the job of what a Pakistani army nurse would do to an Indian soldier after he has been wounded by Pakistani bullets and captured alive. Sugar coated sweet talk therapy after a boot camp thrashing session I'd say.

Baba Fareed Jee was not that type of a saint. Please find me any source where he preached Islam and had people convert.

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The Sufis came only after India was bruised by repeated Islamic invasions. They did the job of what a Pakistani army nurse would do to an Indian soldier after he has been wounded by Pakistani bullets and captured alive. Sugar coated sweet talk therapy after a boot camp thrashing session I'd say.

Baba Fareed Jee was not that type of a saint. Please find me any source where he preached Islam and had people convert.

Mehtab Singh, sheikh baba fared was a Sufi sant musalmaan, he was never a Sikh. What type of Sufi sant was he? The one that doesn't preach Islam? Not all Hindu people converted to Islam forcefully, many must of converted through their own choice, after the inequality of the Hindu hierarchy, many through the Sufi sant movement even after the repeated Islamic invasions as you mentioned. Check any history written on baba sheikh fareed and it writes he converted people obviously to Islam as he wasn't a Hindu. He was Muslim.

Also veer ji, The Sufi sant as to how you describe them is a little degrading as to what there purpose was. Main Mir was also a Sufi sant of whom you claim was offering people sugar coated sweet talk. Parmaatmas truth is everywhere, also in other religions, just because they are Sufi sant does not mean they know no truth if god, hence why we have a Sufi sants saloks in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji

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Many did convert under the sword, many converted because of the caste cancer. But based on the words of Baba Fareed Jee in Gurbani, I am merely questioning where is the evidence that he brought people to Islam. Unless that is a assumption?

There is also a belief that all the Bhagats whose Bani is in Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj did become Sikhs.

Other than that, this is what I found online:

One of the greatest virtues of his life was his love and sympathy for entire mankind. His heart felt pain of oppression perpetuated by the Muslim invaders in the name of religion. He tried to put balm on the hurt psyche of the people through the medium of sweet, soothing words so that the adverse impact caused by excesses of the orthodox Muslims to the image of Islam could be neutralised.

However, a feature of Sheikh Farid's compositions available in the Guru Granth is that they do not seem to be the work of a religious missionary of Islam who is known to have enjoyed great esteem in high circles both religious and temporal and to have converted large numbers of people to Islam. These compositions have very little of the spirit of Islamic Shara use very little of Islamic religious lore and do not show any marked sectarian trend. From the nature of the contents, they seem to be the work of a Muslim who though deeply religious had very little to do with Islamic lore. On the other hand, he is keenly aware with the transitory nature of this world as per the Hindu belief. It is surprising indeed that nowhere in these verses does the name of the Muslim Prophet Mohammed ever occur, nor do his tides of Nabi, Rasul, Paigambar, etc. Even the word 'Murshid', a popular concept of Sufi tradition, is not to be found. The general temper is devotional, no doubt, and great stress is laid upon the performance of prayers, fasting and other ways of worship according to Islam. The spirit is, nevertheless, of Hindu bhakti. Even the words Guru and Prabhu occur in one of the hymns.

A Student asked Baba Farid if singing was lawful and proper. He replied that, according to Islam, it was certainly unlawful, but its propriety was still a matter of discussion. Nizam-ud-Dauliya told Nasir-ud-din, a disciple of his, that one day when he went to visit Baba Farid he stood at his door, and saw him dancing as he sang the following :

I wish ever to live in Thy love, O God
If I become the dust under Thy feet, I shall live
I thy slave desire none but Thee in both worlds;
For Thee I will live and for Thee I will die.

http://searchgurbani.com/bhagats/baba_farid

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Nice piece of research however just because the saloks were added into our Guru Granth Sahib does not mean they became Sikh. They wrote simple truth of Akal purakh, the same for Bhagat Ravidass Ji and Bhagat Kabir ji. These never became Sikhs. They just knew sach. Sheikh baba fareed is a Sufi sant musalmaan, which is not along the same line of orthodox Islam, for e.g the singing of devotional hymns, the swirling dervish all stemming from Rumi. However they were musalmaan just how us Sikhs have now many jathebandi and paths and Rehat Maryada. We all claim were Sikh, just as sheikh baba farid is Muslim even though his Rehat is different to the other main stream Muslim Rehat.

Sheikh baba farid converted people to Islam, I can remember reading this, also a vast number from the Tiwana ghot. I read this in a piece of history on baba sheikh fareed, but cant remember the source, but when I find it il be sure to let you know sir.

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You know there are several flawed arguments used by Muslims to prove that Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj was a Muslim. Over the past several years, however, we have found out that those are fabricated. There is a video on Youtube where a Muslim speaker refers to Baba Fareed Jee as a minuscule level saint, probably because he did NOT preach Islam the way they would have wanted him, or brought legions of people to Islam.

Lets also not forget that Sufism is abhorred by mainstream Sunni Islam and perhaps even Shia Islam. If indeed he was Muslim, this would be a surprise: http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Blast_at_Baba_Farid's_shrine

This topic actually started about the way Sikhs see Hindu warriors in history. Lets try and stick to that. We can discuss about Baba Fareed Jee in a separate thread maybe?

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Fanatic Islamic forces did quite well around the world converting people by force, but as you rightly said, India was another ball game all together as the ideology of dharma was more rooted within society than anywhere else, much if India did resist, battles were won and lost, this was more the Mughal regimes tactic. Either convert or die, however the sufi sant movement, with their devotional singing enchanting people hearts and minds focused on the similarity of the all pervading god with the people of the Indus, not the difference. They sang of the one gods love spreading the Ideology of equality of his creation. Rather than having a sword on your neck and being told to convert, these sufi sant were able to convert masses of Indians with this approach such as dhan dhan baba sheikh fareed!

As to whether we should not really highlight the Mughal aspect, I think we have to as its a complete historical saga, not just one episode. Like for e.g the ghallugara what took place at Shri harmandhir sahib in 1984 was a due to a whole back log of events starting from 1947, so I feel that the whole history should be told, as then the sikhs actions are justified because we had 5 gurus who were more orientated around the Bhakti movement until Shiri guru hargobind mahraj who gave us martial status and we became Bhakti and shakti orientated.

Nice topic pra

This was my original post mehtab singh. I was linking the debate that the whole history should be told as its a huge saga as for e.g 1984. Islamic conversion wasn't just done by the moguls, hence why I added the Sufi history in for the attention of "Big Tera" as he may also find it intriguing as I do.

I was not talking about whether Shiri guru Nanak was Muslim. You just brought that up for some reason. Mainstream Islam obviously does not condone the approach of Sufism, i'm aware they don't hold sheikh baba fareed in high esteem, still does not change the fact that he lived as a Muslim as per his Sufi Rehat and died as a Muslim, buried and enshrined as per their SUFI MUSLIM REHAT.

Also, You quoted my post, you asked me the question I replied to your question to which you then replied and now your asking me to keep on the topic? Lol!?

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lol, how about another thread then ?

Lol mehtab Singh ji, when I read my posts back, i sometimes sound like Dr. Naik lol, I apologise if I sound rude, this is not my intention my brother, so if I have offended you in anyway, phul chuka de khema brother.

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I do quite admire Dr. Naik, honestly.

But just for you quick attention :

Tiwanas claim their ancestry from Raja Bhoj (Parmar Rajput Clan) who ruled India and had capital at Bhojpur in Madhya Pradesh, India. It is believed that Tiwanas settled in the Punjab region, in search for a fertile lands after the fall of Parmar kingdom. During the Bhakti movement in the 15th century, they followed Guru Nanak's {Founder of Sikhism} teachings and became Sikhs at the time.

Those who settled in the western Punjab became Muslims by accepting Islam at the hands of Hazrat Baba Fariduddin Ganjshakar. Commonly known as Baba Farid (ਬਾਬਾ ਫ਼ਰੀਦ), he was a 12th century Sufi preacher and saint of Punjab

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Mehtab Singh, sheikh baba fared was a Sufi sant musalmaan, he was never a Sikh. What type of Sufi sant was he? The one that doesn't preach Islam? Not all Hindu people converted to Islam forcefully, many must of converted through their own choice, after the inequality of the Hindu hierarchy, many through the Sufi sant movement even after the repeated Islamic invasions as you mentioned. Check any history written on baba sheikh fareed and it writes he converted people obviously to Islam as he wasn't a Hindu. He was Muslim.

Also veer ji, The Sufi sant as to how you describe them is a little degrading as to what there purpose was. Main Mir was also a Sufi sant of whom you claim was offering people sugar coated sweet talk. Parmaatmas truth is everywhere, also in other religions, just because they are Sufi sant does not mean they know no truth if god, hence why we have a Sufi sants saloks in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji

It is accepted by many noted historians that the Fareed of Gurbani is the contemponary of the Guru, a spiritual successor to the 12th century Fareed, who was impressed by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. The real name of this Bhagat was Sheikh Ibrahim Sani.

The devout and fanatical Sheikh Fareed, one who converts people to Islam as you said yourself, would not use un-Islamic terms such as Guru, Saadh in his Bani.

The meeting between Gurudev and Bhagat Fareed has been documented in many Janamsakhis, such as the Puratan and Meherbaan.

All Bhagats whose writing is included in Guru Granth Sahib were influenced by Guru Nanak Dev Ji and were therefore his Sikhs. And don't tell me you believe that Sain Mian Mair laid down the foundation stone of Harmandar Sahib?

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It is accepted by many noted historians that the Fareed of Gurbani is the contemponary of the Guru, a spiritual successor to the 12th century Fareed, who was impressed by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. The real name of this Bhagat was Sheikh Ibrahim Sani.

The devout and fanatical Sheikh Fareed, one who converts people to Islam as you said yourself, would not use un-Islamic terms such as Guru, Saadh in his Bani.

The meeting between Gurudev and Bhagat Fareed has been documented in many Janamsakhis, such as the Puratan and Meherbaan.

All Bhagats whose writing is included in Guru Granth Sahib were influenced by Guru Nanak Dev Ji and were therefore his Sikhs. And don't tell me you believe that Sain Mian Mair laid down the foundation stone of Harmandar Sahib?

Many historians like to put there opinion on things and don't present the history for what it is. Like how they stamp the caste on Sikhs to demonstrate how that particular caste had gave more kurbaani, or fought more valiantly than other castes in their own opinion, If it was Sheikh Ibrahim Sani, then the Salok would of been " Salok Sheikh Ibrahim Sani ". I am aware that he was the successor of the Sufi Gaddi, however I said sheikh fareed was devout, did convert people to Islam and was a Muslim to do so, he was fanatical about god but the Sufi path of Islam is very different to that of orthodox Islam. Thats why there is no obligation to using in-Islamic terms in the Salok. If you research the Sufi path, you will see how different it actually is, Quwalli is a product of Sufism, which would be strictly against sharia for orthodox Muslim right? Sufi ustaad, like the late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan had no issue singing the shabad of Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Ravidass all in a Gurdwara, did that make him Sikh too?

Its abit concerning that today us Sikhs feel the need to stamp anyone a Sikh who has had any affiliation with gurus or if there bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib. I think this stems from Dhan Dhan bhai Mardhana, as he spent so much time with Guru Nanak Dev Ji. But just because someone else's bani who belongs to another religion i in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not mean they became Sikh, its like were a little insecure to now admit that other religions know the truth of god too?

To conclude, Sufism is obviously not orthodox Islam as Islam rejects Sufism itself, in my opinion, they are the Salok of sheik farid, who lived and died a Sufi sant musalmaan, Sheikh Ibrahim Sani was the successor of that Sufi Gaddi, but if they were his Salok he simply would of called them his Salok.

God dwells in all people of all faiths, they know truth about Akal purakh, if that is then written and added to the Guru Granth Sahib, does not mean they became a Sikh, the gurus met many people, not all turned to sikhi for e.g they say guru Nanak was "Hindus da guru, musalmana da peer" they claim guru Nanak to their own religion!

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The Sufi sant as to how you describe them is a little degrading as to what there purpose was. Main Mir was also a Sufi sant of whom you claim was offering people sugar coated sweet talk.

I have the absolute respect for Baba Fareed Jee and Saaeen Miya Mir Jee who I do not place in the same category as those Sufis who brought people to Islam only after India had taken a beating. I am no one to say if they became Sikhs or not. My point is they were not the type to bring people to Islam, thats all. Same goes for Pir Budhu Shah Jee also.

Parmaatmas truth is everywhere, also in other religions

By that logic there is no need for Sikhi then? Why does Bhai Gurdas Ji then say "Nanak Nirmal Panth Chalaya"? Doesn't it indicate that the earlier ones were not fully "nirmal" ?

just because they are Sufi sant does not mean they know no truth if god, hence why we have a Sufi sants saloks in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji

The message of their Shabads in Gurbani is in perfect accordance with the Gurmat philosophy of Guru Sahibaan, however not in full accordance with Islam/Sufism. Again, I repeat, the Mahapurakhs we are talking about were different from other Sufis based on the fact that they (a.) did not bring people to Islam, (b.) did not abide by Sharia (which actually condemns Sufism).
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