Sikhi Attacked In Schools - Double Standards

[Pakandi baba]

This never happened in my school.

[Xerxes]

I like this.

My own peronal opinion is that this is your strength. The fact you don't have a dogmatic doctrine that you follow like mindless zombies.

I mean I am only just scratching the surface of your religion and culture here and I do feel out of depth but the fact that so much of your religion is open to intellectual debate and heartfelt soul searching can only help develop you as human beings.

Oh, definitely. People moan and complain about 'disunity' and the like all the time, but they don't seem to realise how awful it would be if one single group took power and started to force their ideas on everyone else. This is one of the big advantages of the physical symbols of Sikhi: they create an all-inclusive religious ingroup and reduces splitting, sectarianism and other nasty tendencies.

I have got one question though, if worship is based a lot on sound and voice then where are your female singing artists?

I mean with Christianity we have Gospel choirs and a lot of very successful singers came out of the Church for instance Whitney Housten.

Am I missing something here, where is the link between your all inclusive non sexist singing religion and your very successful female singing artists?

Where are they?

Most Gurdwaras have female Kirtanis, and there are also of course many female Punjabi singers, some of whom cover religious topics. If you are looking for something akin to western Gospel/Soul music though you have to look outside of Punjabi culture to things like 3HO. I won't post any videos here as 3HO is rather controversial with some (I personally have never really had any contact with them) but if you look you'll definitely find it.

[Akalifauj]

Sri Vasudev is a name of Sri Krishna aka Sri Vishnu, it means 'All-Pervading god', it was a name even before Sri Krishna's dad was born!!!!.. It even says so that is the name of Sri Krishna/Vishnu. If you go read their phat which is called Sri Vishnu Sahasranam '1000 names of Sri Vishnu', Sri Vasudev is one of the names included. Sri Krishna and Sri Vishnu have no difference, theyre both the same being. As for orders, that is the decision of the brahm gyani, I take it that you are NOT a brahm gyani.

There is a character named Vasudev and Vasudeva in history. The latter is the name of Krishna and the former is the name of Krishna's father. Read Bhai Vir Singh ji's analysis on this Vaar. Bhai Sahib questions, how can the letters even add up to Vaheguru. If it was to take a letter from each yug avtar. Then in Kalyug it would be "N" for Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji or Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib ji for when the Vaar is written. It can't be Gobind because Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji came later and Gobind was Gurmantra as Har, Raam, Rahim, Allah is in kalyug. Additionally, Bhai Vir Singh ji questions the wrong order of yugs coming in the Vaar.

Lastly, obviously you have not read Gurbani on Vishnu. Gurbani says Vishnu was never the true Saroop of Akal Purakh and says Vishnu sank like a rock in the great ocean. This further extends to the fate of Vishun's incarnations. This list includes Krishna and Ram avtar. Read Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji for Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji sending these incarnations to the pit of hell. Time to put on the thinking cap and not be a brainwashed by Baba and missionary culture.

Side note: Why are you missionary chelas liking my post. I don't need weak hearted hinduphobia people liking anything I do.

[Akalifauj]

baisno so jis oopar suparsan.

The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom

God is thoroughly pleased.

bisan kee maa-i-aa tay ho-ay bhinn.

He dwells apart from Maya.

karam karat hovai nihkaram.

Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.

tis baisno kaa nirmal Dharam.

Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;

kaahoo fal kee ichhaa nahee baachhai.

he has no desire for the fruits of his labors.

kayval bhagat keertan sang raachai.

He is absorbed in devotional worship and the singing of Kirtan, the

songs of the Lord's Glory.

man tan antar simran gopaal.

Within his mind and body, he meditates in remembrance on the Lord

of the Universe.

sabh oopar hovat kirpaal.

He is kind to all creatures.

aap darirhai avrah naam japaavai.

He holds fast to the Naam, and inspires others to chant it.

naanak oh baisno param gat paavai. ||2||

O Nanak, such a Vaishnaav obtains the supreme status. ||2||

Do the arth of each line of the shabad above and bring the Gurmukhi not some english translations. Tell us what is the vaishnaav way? Who are Vaishnaav? Where did they originate from? What did they practice as religion? Bring to life the historical context and then apply it to this shabad. Gurbani veechar will only happen if you explain the history of the Vaishnaav. Otherwise you have no knowledge on this topic and are typing one or two words in search engines to find Gurbani that says Vishnu.

[Akalifauj]

A Vaishnav is a devotee of Sri Vishnu ji. I would know because I have family friends who are Vaishnav, and I have heard parcharaks talk about this. It has always existed, since Hinduism is the oldest religion. There's not really much to argue about Vaishnavism and Sri Vishnu ji. He wasn't a bad soul at all, much higher than you and me even if combined. It clearly says the devotee of Vishnu. And out of all seriousness, were you calling me a missionary chela??

It says the Gurmukhi in Roman above of the translations fyi

Avoiding all my major questions!! Any person who knows, how to do arth of Gurbani won't dodge questions, but will do it. Instead you are dodging the questions and dodging to do arth of Gurbani you provided. It is obvious you don't know how to do arth of Gurbani and are only relying on the english translations. Instead of wasting everyones time, go listen to Sant Gurbachan Singh ji's katha on this astphadee. It is on www.gurmatveechar.com under puratan katha. Gurbani is very clearly telling a Vaishnaav how to be a true devotee of Akal Purakh. Next Guru Sahib is telling the Bhaugti follower how to be a true follower of Akal Purakh. Next the pandits are told how to be true pandits of Akal Purakh.

And here is Gurbani loud and clear on your Guru Vishnu:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਰੋਗੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਈ ॥

Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva suffer from the disease of the three gunas - the three qualities; they do their deeds in egotism.

ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਚੇਤਹਿ ਬਪੁੜੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥

The poor fools do not remember the One who created them; this understanding of the Lord is only obtained by those who become Gurmukh. ||2|| ang 735

Are you satisfied, who your Guru Vishnu is now?

[Akalifauj]

You can't just say that I don't know the arth and rely on the english translation, yet you just have me an English translation?? Hypocrisy much.. Anyways, I'm not wasting everyone's time, because I just said what our Gurbani clearly says. Yeah, I know the next translation, the person who is an Adi Shakti follower aka Bhagvati follower. But we're currently talking about Vaishnavs. There's also many other lines I've seen where the portrayal is clearly Vaishnav.. (my commentary would be in the blue writing)Such as::

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਧਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਓ ਰਾਮ ਬੇਨੁ ਬਾਜੈ ॥

धनि धंनि ओ राम बेनु बाजै ॥

Ḏẖan ḏẖan o rām ben bājai.

Blessed, blessed is that flute which the Lord plays. (Who else plays a flute? Take a guess)

ਮਧੁਰ ਮਧੁਰ ਧੁਨਿ ਅਨਹਤ ਗਾਜੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

मधुर मधुर धुनि अनहत गाजै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Maḏẖur maḏẖur ḏẖun anhaṯ gājai. ||1|| rahā▫o.

The sweet, sweet unstruck sound current sings forth. ||1||Pause||

ਧਨਿ ਧਨਿ ਮੇਘਾ ਰੋਮਾਵਲੀ ॥

धनि धनि मेघा रोमावली ॥

Ḏẖan ḏẖan megẖā romāvalī.

Blessed, blessed is the wool of the sheep;

ਧਨਿ ਧਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਓਢੈ ਕਾਂਬਲੀ ॥੧॥

धनि धनि क्रिसन ओढै कांबली ॥१॥

Ḏẖan ḏẖan krisan odẖai kāʼnblī. ||1||

blessed, blessed is the blanket worn by Krishna. ||1|| (Obviously, states Sri Krishna, aka the leader of Sri Vaishnavism)

ਧਨਿ ਧਨਿ ਤੂ ਮਾਤਾ ਦੇਵਕੀ ॥

धनि धनि तू माता देवकी ॥

Ḏẖan ḏẖan ṯū māṯā ḏevkī.

Blessed, blessed are you, O mother Dayvakee; (Devaki Mataji)

ਜਿਹ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਰਮਈਆ ਕਵਲਾਪਤੀ ॥੨॥

जिह ग्रिह रमईआ कवलापती ॥२॥

Jih garih rama▫ī▫ā kavalāpaṯī. ||2||

into your home the Lord was born. ||2||

ਧਨਿ ਧਨਿ ਬਨ ਖੰਡ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨਾ ॥

धनि धनि बन खंड बिंद्राबना ॥

Ḏẖan ḏẖan ban kẖand binḏrābanā.

Blessed, blessed are the forests of Brindaaban; (What significance is Vrindavan in our dharm besides in Sri Vaishnavism?)

ਜਹ ਖੇਲੈ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਨਾ ॥੩॥

जह खेलै स्री नाराइना ॥३॥

Jah kẖelai sarī nārā▫inā. ||3||

the Supreme Lord plays there. ||3|| (Sri Krishna in his youth)

ਬੇਨੁ ਬਜਾਵੈ ਗੋਧਨੁ ਚਰੈ ॥

बेनु बजावै गोधनु चरै ॥

Ben bajāvai goḏẖan cẖarai.

He plays the flute, and herds the cows; (Sri Krishna as Sri Gopal)

ਨਾਮੇ ਕਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਆਨਦ ਕਰੈ ॥੪॥੧॥

नामे का सुआमी आनद करै ॥४॥१॥

Nāme kā su▫āmī ānaḏ karai. ||4||1||

Naam Dayv's Lord and Master plays happily. ||4||1|| (It says Name ka Swami, which they are probably reffering to the Sikh Bhagat Namdev ji. Yet we believe the Sikh Bhagats believe in God, yet it says Sri Krishna is Bhagat Namdev ji's SWAMI. But it makes sense because in Bhai Gurdas JI ki Vaar it says that Sri Krishna is part of the word Sri Vaheguru)

ਮੇਰੋ ਬਾਪੁ ਮਾਧਉ ਤੂ ਧਨੁ ਕੇਸੌ ਸਾਂਵਲੀਓ ਬੀਠੁਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

मेरो बापु माधउ तू धनु केसौ सांवलीओ बीठुलाइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Mero bāp māḏẖa▫o ṯū ḏẖan kesou sāʼnvlī▫o bīṯẖulā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.

O my Father, Lord of wealth, blessed are You, long-haired, dark-skinned, my darling. ||1||Pause|| (Lord of wealth? It makes sense because Sri Vishnu is the husband of Sri MahaLakshmi))

ਕਰ ਧਰੇ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਗਜ ਹਸਤੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਉਧਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥

कर धरे चक्र बैकुंठ ते आए गज हसती के प्रान उधारीअले ॥

Kar ḏẖare cẖakar baikunṯẖ ṯe ā▫e gaj hasṯī ke parān uḏẖārī▫ale.

You hold the steel chakra in Your hand; You came down from Heaven, and saved the life of the elephant. (I'm sure you've heard how Sri Vishnu saved the life of the elephant right? It also states the Lord holds the Chakra, and came down from heaven aka Baikunth=Vaikuntha)

ਦੁਹਸਾਸਨ ਕੀ ਸਭਾ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਅੰਬਰ ਲੇਤ ਉਬਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥੧॥

दुहसासन की सभा द्रोपती अम्बर लेत उबारीअले ॥१॥

Ḏuhsāsan kī sabẖā ḏaropaṯī ambar leṯ ubārī▫ale. ||1||

In the court of Duhsaasan, You saved the honor of Dropati, when her clothes were being removed. ||1|| (When Sri Krishna saved Draupadi's honor)

ਗੋਤਮ ਨਾਰਿ ਅਹਲਿਆ ਤਾਰੀ ਪਾਵਨ ਕੇਤਕ ਤਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥

गोतम नारि अहलिआ तारी पावन केतक तारीअले ॥

Goṯam nār ahli▫ā ṯārī pāvan keṯak ṯārī▫ale.

You saved Ahliyaa, the wife of Gautam; how many have You purified and carried across? (You claim Sri Krishna and his other Avatars went to hell, yet he saved others and carried them across)

ਐਸਾ ਅਧਮੁ ਅਜਾਤਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਤਉ ਸਰਨਾਗਤਿ ਆਈਅਲੇ ॥੨॥੨॥

ऐसा अधमु अजाति नामदेउ तउ सरनागति आईअले ॥२॥२॥

Aisā aḏẖam ajāṯ nāmḏe▫o ṯa▫o sarnāgaṯ ā▫ī▫ale. ||2||2||

Such a lowly outcaste as Naam Dayv has come seeking Your Sanctuary. ||2||2|| (Need I say more? Just because you have lines saying something, doesn't mean these ones are nulled. This is all Gurbani fyi)

This Shabad is not praising Krishna. Read it carefully and consult a Gurmukh on what is being said. In the past I asked you to listen to Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Khalsa katha on the Vaishnaav Shabad. I don't know if you have, but you have forgotten to do the arth of the Vaishnaav shabad. Instead you jump to another shabad in a hast to prove your minds desires. The shabad has a historical point like every other one, where Namdev ji was approached by a follower of Krishna, who wanted to praise Krishna. Bhagat Namdev ji, stops him and tells him let me teach you, who is Bhagat Namdev ji's swami. Bhagat Namdev ji says, your Lord Krishna only plays the flute here on earth and plays here joyfully. But my swami is the one who is always in bliss. ਨਾਮੇ ਕਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਆਨਦ ਕਰੈ ॥੪॥੧॥ Bhagat Namdev ji is redefining who is the true Krishna (Lord of all). Another clue, Bhagat Namdev ji is not praising Krishna who fathered by Vasudev is in this tuk: ਜਿਹ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਰਮਈਆ ਕਵਲਾਪਤੀ ॥੨॥ This took is saying Lord Krishna was born???????? Now i want to draw your attention to a shabad, which will give you contentment on who Krishna was in the eye of Gurbani. On ang 1136, Sri Guru Arjun Dev ji speaks of the birth of Krishna. Krishna was born on the eighth lunar day and if you have any doubts of this, please consult a Gurmukh or a credible Hindu text. Both will proclaim Krishna was born on the eighth lunar day.

ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧

Bhairao, Fifth Mehl, First House:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਸਗਲੀ ਥੀਤਿ ਪਾਸਿ ਡਾਰਿ ਰਾਖੀ ॥

Setting aside all other days, it is said,

ਅਸਟਮ ਥੀਤਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਜਨਮਾ ਸੀ ॥੧॥

that the Lord was born on the eighth lunar day. ||1|| (Sri Guru Arjun Dev ji referring to the birth of Lord Krishna)

ਭਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਨਰ ਕਰਤ ਕਚਰਾਇਣ ॥

Deluded and confused by doubt, the mortal practices falsehood.

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਤੇ ਰਹਤ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

The Lord is beyond birth and death. ||1||Pause||

ਕਰਿ ਪੰਜੀਰੁ ਖਵਾਇਓ ਚੋਰ ॥

You prepare sweet treats and feed them to your stone god.

ਓਹੁ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਰੇ ਸਾਕਤ ਢੋਰ ॥੨॥

God is not born, and He does not die, you foolish, faithless cynic! ||2||

ਸਗਲ ਪਰਾਧ ਦੇਹਿ ਲੋਰੋਨੀ ॥

You sing lullabies to your stone god - this is the source of all your mistakes.

ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥

Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Lord and Master is subject to birth. ||3||

ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

He is not born, and He does not die; He does not come and go in reincarnation.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥

The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere. ||4||1||

[Akalifauj]

Can you give me a reference to where a Krishna worshipper stopped and said all this to Bhagat Namdevji? If I remember correctly, Bhagat Namdev ji even calls 'God' 'V/Bheetal' which is a name of Sri Krishna called Vithoba in that same area Bhagat Namdev ji is from.

If you listen to the katha of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji, he tells the historical context of Bhagat Namdev ji shabad reference to krishna in the shabad you presented. Guru Sahib praises Raam. This does not mean Guru Sahib is saying Raamchandr is the all supreme being.

Those lines are right that you have posted, and I believe in them too, but you can't just null the lines that I have posted.. I don't believe in Idol worship, I believe in doing phat, as do many Sri Vaishnavs. Maybe our Sri Guru ji meant that Sri Krishna was the form created, and Sri Krishna just left his body, nobody really dies. There's lines such as these ones that say otherwise:

I am not disregarding the Gurbani you presented. Instead, I am telling you to consult a Gurmukh on what the shabad is saying. Hence, I gave you the historical context from a Gurmukhs katha. The shabad of Sri Guru Arjun Dev ji, I presented is talking about Krishna being born on the eighth lunar day. Guru Sahib says the lord is not born. So how can Krishna be the Lord? Is that much clearer now?