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Is The Concept Of Miri/piri Being Overlooked In Our Society Today?

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The concept of Miri/Piri

This is sort of a mini essay/discussion about a topic that I feel is ignored many times for some other reason.

The Concept of Miri Pirri is a vital part of our own faith. Even in our most well known symbol that is associated with our faith wields these mighty swords. The Khanda, where the 2 swords guard our faith.

Miri represents (in very little words) temporal authority while Piri represent Spiritual authority. When looking at other religions you'll notice they have symbols for balance and structure of the universe. Ying/Yang is a prime example. Miri Piri is sort of our own version of total balancee.

Most people will suggest that Guru Hargobind Ji was the one who started this tradition. Yes, that is very true, Guru Sahib Ji did wear 2 swords to represent these values but the concept was already there well before Guru Sahib's time. Guru Nanak even spoke about it.

ਕੋਟੀ ਹੂ ਪੀਰ ਵਰਜਿ ਰਹਾਝ ਜਾ ਮੀਰ੝ ਸ੝ਣਿਆ ਧਾਇਆ ॥

kotee hoo peer varaj rahaa-ay jaa meer suni-aa Dhaa-i-aa.

Millions of religious leaders failed to halt the invader, when they heard of the Emperor's invasion.

ਥਾਨ ਮ੝ਕਾਮ ਜਲੇ ਬਿਜ ਮੰਦਰ ਮ੝ਛਿ ਮ੝ਛਿ ਕ੝ਇਰ ਰ੝ਲਾਇਆ ॥

thaan mukaam jalay bij mandar muchh muchh ku-ir rulaa-i-aa.

He burned the rest-houses and the ancient temples; he cut the princes limb from limb, and cast them into the dust.

ਕੋਈ ਮ੝ਗਲ੝ ਨ ਹੋਆ ਅੰਧਾ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਰਚਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥੪॥

ko-ee mugal na ho-aa anDhaa kinai na parchaa laa-i-aa. ((4))

None of the Mugals went blind, and no one performed any miracle. ((4))

Firstly let me say no a Sikh Prayer isn't stronger than a muslim. A sikh could sit here and recite any bani he wants but without total love for god it will be futile, the same will go for any muslim. The Point of these lines from Gurbani was a means of conveying that Piri isn't enough for the world. No matter how one may try, beg god for help, we need to take our own steps to solve our problems and thank Waheguru for guiding us and helping us achieve them. god gave us hands, we need to use them for our own protection, our own good deeds. Doing Naam and Bhagti isn't enough for this world. Guru Sahib further mentions this in Gurbani.

ਅਮਲ੝ ਕਰਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਬੀਜ੝ ਸਬਦੋ ਕਰਿ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਆਬ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਹਿ ਪਾਣੀ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਕਿਰਸਾਣ੝ ਈਮਾਨ੝ ਜੰਮਾਇ ਲੈ ਭਿਸਤ੝ ਦੋਜਕ੝ ਮੂੜੇ ਝਵ ਜਾਣੀ ॥੧॥

Amal kar ḝẖarṯī bīj sabḝo kar sacẖ kī ĝb niṯ ḝėh pĝṇī. Ho▫e kirsĝṇ īmĝn jammĝ▫e lai bẖisaṯ ḝojak mūṛe ev jĝṇī. (1)

Make good deeds the soil, and let the Word of the Shabad be the seed; irrigate it continually with the water of Truth.

Become such a farmer, and faith will sprout. This brings knowledge of heaven and hell, you fool! (1)

How are we, as people even going to reach that state of Spiritual enlightenment if all we're doing is sitting there reciting the word of god? The word of god is good, how are you going to get by in life if we're not trying to do good?

Even our Guru Sahib went to war when they were threatened. They took part in political aspects of the world, they opened up institutions of education, Guru Angad Dev Ji himself modified punjabi and introduced a new and improved Gurmukhi script. Schools were opened to increase literacy rates.

Piri is only one half of the coin.

Is Miri being discouraged in our faith now?

If Piri is spiritual knowledge, then Miri is worldly knowledge. Piri is all about spirituality then Piri is about what goes on in our world, political,science,social everything. Our Guru Sahib's discouraged the yogi approach of life, living in total detachment from the world, discouraging any form of contact or involvement in it. Our Guru Sahib heavily discouraged this.

But you can now see some preachers and even some laymen who are encouraging something similar. Only it's being encouraged to be done at home. People are more insistent on doing naam 24/7, sitting there doing only that all the time and ignore the world. That's admirable, but also only half way there . But also doesn't make you any different from the yogi that did that high above in mountains or even well away from Society. Guru Sahib never wanted us to be detached from the world. We were encouraged to be involved in it, in a positive respect. History bears testament to that. One will never reach that state of oneness with god if we're rejecting his very creation.

Let's have a look at Gurbani as a whole. Not certain passages or even certain parts. But Gurbani as a whole. The Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the Dasam Granth, everything. We can sit there and understand Gurbani by reading the translations. But that isn't usually enough. We need to explore a bit deeper. We need to use other forms of knowledge, worldly knowledge to be precise. For example let's look at Guru Gobind Singh Ji's letter to Aurangzeb the actual history behind it can help one understand it even better.

Even in Gurbani there are tuks which refer to certain events in Guru Sahib's life.

ਪੁਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਉਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਲਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਪੀਰਹੁ ਕੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮੁਰਟੀਐ ॥
His sons did not obey His Word; they turned their backs on Him as Guru.

ਦਿਲਿ ਖੋਟੈ ਆਕੀ ਫਿਰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ਉਚਾਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਛਟੀਐ ॥
These evil-hearted ones became rebellious; they carry loads of sin on their backs

These refer to Baba Sri Chand, the son of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. If we were to read this as a stand alone (i.e not being familiar with any aspect of Guru Sahib's life) we may even skim over it. But armed with that crucial knowledge we appreciate it all that more. Again im not saying we shouldnt appreciate any aspect of Gurbani, but we're all un-intelligent compared to the divine word.

But one might say what about those subjects or branches of knowledge that may seem "unorthodox" to be associated with Gurbani. For example science. When people think of science they may picture big bearded white haired men who reject god and think they have the answer to everything in the universe. This is a massive misconception. Science has always asserted it never will or does know all the answers. It seeks to provide an explanation to certain issues and certain mysteries of the physical world we live in. These explanations helped us advance as a species and as people. We can now fly with the help of automobiles, with the help of medical science we can now cure diseases and even help infertile couples conceive. We can do so much due to this branch of knowledge. All through the grace of Maha Kaal.

But how does science correspond with Gurbani? Our Gurbani is perhaps one of the only religious scriptures or the divine words of god which have never contradicted or even argued with science. in fact Science has worked hand in hand with Gurbani. Not going into too much detail this essay is a nice take on how Gurbani has corresponded with science as a whole. This goes into so much more depth but it's an interesting read, again not finished it all but it's a fascinating from what I have read

http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/gss_sikhscience.pdf

BasicsOfSikhi also does a video to explain this in a nice way. I've not finished it all yet but it seems to be an interesting find.

So while we're happy enough associating ourselves with Piri, Miri is however slowly and surely being diminished.

Yes Politics isn't going to help us reach god, no science won't help us understand god. But it does help us in this world, to sow the seeds of good deeds. Seva isn't restricted just to the Sikh community, Seva is meant for the entire world as a whole. Through Politics one can help change laws and rules which are bound to discriminate against a certain community. Through Science we can help revolutionize the world, create cures for diseases, new technology and further help humanity as a whole. Through economics we can learn about finances and use that to become more efficient people in terms of money. The money we can save can be used for other more beneficial services, donate it to charity or use it to sponsor a child in Africa or something.

The thread that spoke about a proper "sikh" profession, a proper Sikh Profession is easily anything that doesn't violate the pillars of our faith. Most Jobs wont do that. But the deeds we do with those jobs may be anti-sikh.

In most family there are only 3 jobs that seem to be worth considering. Law,Medicine or Engineering. That's about it, there are other jobs out there. Some may even be less shady than becoming a lawyer, who may have to defend a morally compromising character. Let's face it how many Sikh lawyers would reject the person once they pull out a massive check. Not very many.

While we do need focus on our Spiritual life, We also need to focus on our worldly life. People such as Baba Randhir Singh Ji who many consider an enlightened being, he too was very involved worldly affairs. He was also a very well read individual, he was well aware of what was happening in the west alongside what was happening in India. He even mentions the big bang theory which during his time was in it's infancy and still being developed/proven. Considering it was still being combated by the Steady State Theory supporters it would be a big leap to say "look how science has just discovered something in Gurbani" . His faith was so un-shaking that he was confident that Gurbani was true and he wasn't wrong, not at all. Such a man who was so Spiritually wise, here he is looking and keeping up with the world. Not to mention his contributions to the Indian independence movement.

Obviously we should do Patt, and we should focus on god. But we should also be encouraging not just ourselves but our youth to branch out and gain any sort of worthwhile knowledge, rather than ignoring the Miri and only focusing the Piri, we should be in a form of equilibrium balance with both. If not then at-least have awarement of the world. what's the point of living in say a city, a village or even with a large group of people if we're still following that Yogic method of detachment.

So what do you guys think? do you feel that Miri/Piri is a concept that's overlooked in Sikh society today? or am I just rambling :D

Thank you for reading.

disclaimer: I am not a sikh scholar who is an expert on Sikh theology or even Gurbani. Nor am I a Brahmgiani, I am nothing more than a laymen. In this essay/large post I may have unknowingly made many mistakes and I beg that waheguru will forgive me and my fellow Sikhs here will correct me. These are purely my own thoughts and views. I pray to Waheguru to forgive anything I may have said here that is not in line with Sikhi and I kindly ask someone to correct me if they feel I have made an error somewhere.

Thank you :D

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"Firstly let me say no a Sikh Prayer isn't stronger than a muslim" I beg to differ.. I think our prayers are stronger for sure. Just look at Baba Prahlad ji, he was saved by Sri Narsingh ji just by praying(piri) to God (and if I remember correctly, we are supposed to pray like him), same goes for Baba Dhruv ji. I also think these days Miri is actually used more than Piri, considering in kalyug people (some in our religion as well) have less of a tendency to do dharmic activities.

Did you know Guru Gobind Singh Ji did Bhaghti before the time of Sikhi or even our Gurbani had be handed to us and achieved Sach khand? are you now saying that Guru Sahib's prayers and meditation was weaker than our own? good to know. You think our prayer is stronger because you don't like the concept of equality, you disregard that spirituality is universal and that God is just as likely to help a muslim as he is to a sikh. Anyone who calls out to God in love and affection will be heard by God, whether they do that in the form of a Muslim prayer or any other prayer. You are restricting Waheguru to only Sikhism which is completely against Gurmat. Even Gurbani points out that is wrong as god is universal and accessible to all.

Miri/Piri is dying in our community, People are either too focused on Piri or too focused on Miri. The Balance is gone.

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How to get the balance back?

Everyone knows the issues affecting us.

Why not start thinking and discussing solutions.

There are so many confused so called Sikhs who do not even understand simple Basics of Sikhi.

Some want to keep reciting paath loudly 24 7. Others do not want to excel in their professional lives.

Some do not want to marry and others commend that behavior fully knowing that Sikhi advocates leading a family life and find God doing your daily activities.

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Yeah they have, but I highly highly doubt that it was the islamic way.

I used the Islamic word to convery my point as the Gurbani mentioned Muslim Pirs.

Did you know the name Sri Ram and Narayan/Har hare hari/Paramatman/Jag Mata/Bhagwati/Bhavani/Onkar etc have all been used before too and have the same meaning while not being exclusive to our religion???

Wow, I never knew that. This is all new to me, here i was thinking the name of goddess such as bhagauti or ram was referring to Hindu Deity and that we were being encouraged to worship them. wow I never knew that. I don't know if you know but the word Allah is used as well in Gurbani.

If I remember correctly, he did bhagti in Satyug when Islam didn't even exist, and I am sure the name Narayan and all those I have mentioned have existed during that time period :)

Gurbani in the form we read it, didn't exist. The word of God, the Shabad Guru did exist which isn't restricted or confined to one word or method as the methods to praise god are endless. Guru Sahib even says how Muhammed was sent down by god but failed to distill the name of god in humans, he let his own pride and his own ritualistic thoughts get in the way. The same for almost all religious teachers. Gurbani even bears testament to that.

ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ लोगा भरमि न भूलहु भाई ॥ Logā bẖaram na bẖūlahu bẖā▫ī. O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.
ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ खालिकु खलक खलक महि खालिकु पूरि रहिओ स्रब ठांई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Kẖālik kẖalak kẖalak mėh kẖālik pūr rahi▫o sarab ṯẖāʼn▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o. The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||
ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਸਾਜਨਹਾਰੈ ॥ माटी एक अनेक भांति करि साजी साजनहारै ॥ Mātī ek anek bẖāʼnṯ kar sājī sājanhārai. The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.
ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਕੁੰਭਾਰੈ ॥੨॥ ना कछु पोच माटी के भांडे ना कछु पोच कु्मभारै ॥२॥ Nā kacẖẖ pocẖ mātī ke bẖāʼnde nā kacẖẖ pocẖ kumbẖārai. ||2|| There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||
ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ सभ महि सचा एको सोई तिस का कीआ सभु कछु होई ॥ Sabẖ mėh sacẖā eko so▫ī ṯis kā kī▫ā sabẖ kacẖẖ ho▫ī. The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.
ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਨੈ ਸੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਬੰਦਾ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥ हुकमु पछानै सु एको जानै बंदा कहीऐ सोई ॥३॥ Hukam pacẖẖānai so eko jānai banḏā kahī▫ai so▫ī. ||3|| Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||
ਅਲਹੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ਗੁਰਿ ਗੁੜੁ ਦੀਨਾ ਮੀਠਾ ॥ अलहु अलखु न जाई लखिआ गुरि गुड़ु दीना मीठा ॥ Alhu alakẖ na jā▫ī lakẖi▫ā gur guṛ ḏīnā mīṯẖā. The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.
ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਸੰਕਾ ਨਾਸੀ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਡੀਠਾ ॥੪॥੩॥ कहि कबीर मेरी संका नासी सरब निरंजनु डीठा ॥४॥३॥ Kahi Kabīr merī sankā nāsī sarab niranjan dīṯẖā. ||4||3|| Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3||
ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ॥ प्रभाती ॥ Parbẖāṯī. Prabhaatee:
ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ बेद कतेब कहहु मत झूठे झूठा जो न बिचारै ॥ Beḏ kaṯeb kahhu maṯ jẖūṯẖe jẖūṯẖā jo na bicẖārai. Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ जउ सभ महि एकु खुदाइ कहत हउ तउ किउ मुरगी मारै ॥१॥ Ja▫o sabẖ mėh ek kẖuḏā▫e kahaṯ ha▫o ṯa▫o ki▫o murgī mārai. ||1|| You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||

So I'll ask once again. Who do you think God will listen to. A sikh who's mind is wandering around while he's reading Gurbani or a Muslim who's focusing on his love for Allah/God while he recites his prayers.

I think our religion is sarvasresht with no mistakes, while some others /might/ have some flaws etc.

IN Practice and certain aspects they are, but any religion that focuses on praising god with the removal of ritualistic practices is goodd.

You ignored my part where I said that people like Baba Prahlad/Baba Dhruv have attained kalyan through bhagti.

I ignored it as it has no meaning to the topic of Miri/Piri. Prahlad meditated on god and still went about his daily business. If you read the Dasam Granth it even says He was born to liberate the saints and was destined to be a devotee of god. This was due to the spread of evil,hypocrisy and the destruction of all things sacred. He was born as a true saint to liberate the saints. You can't achieve what you already had. After the death of his father Prahlad became King and spread righteousness and goodness. He didn't only do Bhaghti, he also did good deeds.

I don't know much if anything about Baba Dhruv so I'll refrain from mentioning anything about him.

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Hmm well I don't think our Sri Guru ji used the Islamic way in Satyug because Islam didn't even exist.

The Islamic way doesn't exist if we actually follow what Guru Nanak tells them the way to become a true muslim is.

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ मः १ ॥ Mėhlā 1. First Mehl:
ਪੰਜਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ਵਖਤ ਪੰਜਿ ਪੰਜਾ ਪੰਜੇ ਨਾਉ ॥ पंजि निवाजा वखत पंजि पंजा पंजे नाउ ॥ Panj nivājā vakẖaṯ panj panjā panje nā▫o. There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names.
ਪਹਿਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਹਲਾਲ ਦੁਇ ਤੀਜਾ ਖੈਰ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥ पहिला सचु हलाल दुइ तीजा खैर खुदाइ ॥ Pahilā sacẖ halāl ḏu▫e ṯījā kẖair kẖuḏā▫e. Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God.
ਚਉਥੀ ਨੀਅਤਿ ਰਾਸਿ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਜਵੀ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਨਾਇ ॥ चउथी नीअति रासि मनु पंजवी सिफति सनाइ ॥ Cẖa▫uthī nī▫aṯ rās man panjvī sifaṯ sanā▫e. Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord.
ਕਰਣੀ ਕਲਮਾ ਆਖਿ ਕੈ ਤਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਸਦਾਇ ॥ करणी कलमा आखि कै ता मुसलमाणु सदाइ ॥ Karṇī kalmā ākẖ kai ṯā musalmāṇ saḏā▫e. Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.
ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇਤੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੈ ਕੂੜੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੩॥ नानक जेते कूड़िआर कूड़ै कूड़ी पाइ ॥३॥ Nānak jeṯe kūṛi▫ār kūrhai kūṛī pā▫e. ||3|| O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood. ||3||
Those names go vice versa somewhat, they are the name of God as well, either way both beings have the same Sri Nirguna Parabrahman inside them and they both are protectors of dharma

NarSingh was actually an incarnation of Vishnu. While Hindus believe he was a devotee of him, the Dasam Granth mentions that he was a follower of the one god and that Vishnu was told to take the form of a man-lion and wage war against his tyrannical father.

Well the koran might have been edited throughout the years right.. it has been a long time, while our Gurbani is unedited and sarvasresht.

No it's never been edited per say. Muslims are pretty uptight about that. But it's nearly 1000 years old so I would imagine slight changes did some into it, the thing about Gurbani is unlike the Quran we have the actual texts/writings composed/written by the Guru sahib unlike just narrations.

. There are so many members here on this site that hate islam etc, but I personally don't hate islam, but I just don't believe in it because I've never seen it mention karma or reincarnation/ahinsa which was a major point in religions before abrahamic ones
Prior to contrary belief good deeds are a massive part of Islam, Karma in the sense of you reap what you sow is also there as they too believe you will be judged one day. Reincarnation does not. But Guru Gobind Singh JI said that Muhammed had been sent by god but his pride got in the way of things -shrugs- it sounds like he pick and choose but a true muslim (i.e one who submits to the will of Allah/God) will realize that.
Yeah it's good that Baba Prahlad did that, but the main issue was that his father didn't let him pray to Sri Narayan, so Sri Narsingh ji had to come himself so that his devotee can pray to him.

That's hardly the problem in our modern society? there isn't a tyrant standing above us asking him to worship him. I've never seen our Prime Minister david Cameron giving speeches about he is the true lord of this world lmao. The time of the world in the time of Prahlad was akin to Kalyug, only it had reached its peak. Kalyug may exist here but the entire world isn't being submitted to the will of one demon lord lol.

Baba Dhruv basically left his houshold to pray. Read this since it can describe it better than me: http://www.sikhiwiki...index.php/Dhroo

I remember some Katha on this being done in our Gurudwara, at the time I however had to leave so I didn't hear it all. I read that, but Sikhism doesn't preach what Druv did, It discourages going into vast forests to meditate on god.

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I don't think it would be right to say true muslim then, more like true dharmic person, right?

The gurbani uses true muslim, are you going to dispute Gurbani now?

So what if Sri Narsingh was an avatar of Sri Vishnu? I'm saying that look at how Baba Pralahd prayed to God and then he was saved by the fruit of the prayer.

And I'm point out why Narsingh came to his aid, he was born to protect Dharma in the world. No offense but you sound like the person who would sit there and beg god to save you when an axe wielding maniac would attack you rather than run for your life. If we're going to go by your logic why didn't any of our Guru's just do a prayer and have God manifest himself to protect them. There's a fine line between what happened in the past and what we take part in. None of us are born with the same mission as saints such as Guru Sahib,

Wasn't the koran made years after Muhammed's death anyways??

No it was revealed in his lifetime and passed along orally, most muslim scholars accept it was compelled during the time of Muhammad.

I think it has a posibility of being edited, or else if it was really true they wouldn't do halal to animals the way they do or kill people who don't convert to their religion (or killing muslims who convert out).

Yes there is a chance it was edited.

Then again, I respect all religions, doesn't mean I associate myself with them though.

You clearly don't respect them.

. Hmm yes, their religion doesn't mention janam maran, literally most abrahamic people think everything is here for humans to exploit them for our faida (no matter how much gore it may have),

There are many many sects of Christianity and even some muslims who don't follow that line of thought.

just meant that look at what he achieved through piri, can someone achieve that much through just by doing miri? That's why alot people believe in piri more.

then you'll agree there is the need of a balance.

Lol, look at Afghanistan and other countries where they don't let you convert out to any other religion even if you were born in a muslim family aka no choice.

So do many Sikh families sadly.

Actually, we are supposed to do what Baba Dhruv did

Find me the tukh from Gurbani that tells us to run to a forest and spend all our time meditating away there.

would it be too personal if I asked you which phats you read/recite daily lagatar?

why would that matter? is this your equivalent of a male genitalia measuring contest :p? I recite as much bani as I can, i get up at Amrit Vala, I do my phatt then, I do it in the evening as well. I also recite Chaupai sahib whenever I can as I find the path relaxing and its a short phat.

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਜਪੈ ਸੋਈ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਿਉ ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦੁ ਸਮਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

जो जो जपै सोई गति पावै जिउ ध्रू प्रहिलादु समावैगो ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jo jo japai so▫ī gaṯ pāvai ji▫o ḏẖarū par▫hilāḏ samāvaigo. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Whoever chants and meditates on it is emancipated. Like Dhroo and Prahlaad, they merge in the Lord. ||1||Pause||

You shouldn't post Gurbani without actually knowing what is being said there. Look at the word ਜਿਉ there. Like. Like Prahlaad and Dhruv, where did I ever say they didn't achieve salvation. You're encouraging people to live in detachment which is completely against Gurmat.

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Nope, I'm not going to dispute Gurbani now. Just saying that I don't think a true dharmic person can be exclusive to Islam.

You've got it the wrong way around. A dharmic person isn't exclusive to Sikhism.

Yeah well I would prefer to be saved by my phat, because I don't know how to fight, so I would rather have been saved by my dharmic karmas rather than myself, either way both ways I am the one who actually fought because I earned those karmas from being saved from bad people, right

Then you would be cut down instantly. waheguru isn't going to help someone who isn't willing to help themselves.

I think I would know what I respect and don't respect. I see Sri NirgunaParaBrahman ji inside them as well, as it is obvious, but I will stick to my dharm.

You clearly don't. You've still not answered my question from before about the muslim and the sikh.

Really, where does it say in the koran about janam maran, and that only humans aren't exclusive to mukhti?? They think only humans have the right to mukhti, without even mentioning animals/plants etc can become humans too one day.

Humans are the only beings capable on this earth of physically contemplating god so you tell me how an animal will do bhaghti.

Hmm yes we do need a balance of miri and piri, but if you'd ask me which one my mind indulges on more it's piri..

The you're only looking at one half of what Guru Sahib taught.

Noo, I meant that the law themselves in those countries because of their religions don't let you convert out, but in India/elsewhere you are free to convert to anything you want.

India is a disgusting form of rule. The rules are bent about constantly and their hold on the urban populus is minute at best. Total religious freedom doesn't exist there. Considering they bunch sikhism in with hinduism that alone should say how much freedom actually exists there compared to western countries.

LOL, why should I find a line like that when it obviously tells us to pray like how he did??

Look at the line again. It says "LIKE PRAHLAD AND DRUV THEY WILL BE LIBERATED" do you see like Prahald and Druv. It says like them you will be liberated. It NEVER mentions that you should go and follow them into a forest and start meditating there. Feel free to do that if you thnk its right. but Guru sahib said it's pointless and inefficient.

? I just want to know what phats you read daily so I have a clue of what Gurbani you are most familiar with.

I'm familiar with the nitnam bani, sukhmani sahib, dukhbhanji sahib, In the process of reading Dasam Granth and I'm also learning Santhiya from another Sikh. I'm also going to start reading pothi of the Guru Granth Sahib (i had started this earlier on in my life) once I have a proper grasp of the santhiya.

Well look at how those two bhagats recieved kalyan?? Look at their ways, now if you are questioning their ways by saying we shouldn't do what they do is a wrong thought.

I'm not questioning their ways, Gurbani already does that for me. It discourages following the Yogic Method which is what Druv used. Druv went to a forest and spent his time detached from the world. Guru Nanak preached against it, Gurbani preaches against it. Yes they did receive enlightenment BUT as Sikhs we're told NOT to go do Bhaghti in Forests and be detached from the world. If you bother reading about bhai Randhir singh Ji you'll know how he lived in society, took part in society BUT STILL managed to attain the amount of Spiritual Knowledge one can only dream about.

Look at our Sri Dusht Daman, didn't he do bhagti that way, and in his next life he was blessed with becoming a Guru ji of the true path.. So how can that be wrong at all?

but Sikhs are told not to do that. Are you saying that we should ignore those words from Guru Sahib (the same incarnation you're talking about I might add) and follow what Druv? I'd like to add you're comparing 2 different points in time with one another. The message preached in Kalyug is to do meditation in ones home, not run off to some high up mountain or even live in total isolation from the world.

ਗੁਰਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਾ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਹੁ ॥ गुरि कहिआ सा कार कमावहु ॥ Gur kahi▫ā sā kār kamāvahu. So do that work, which the Guru tells you to do.

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Yeah I don't think a true dharmic person is exclusive to Sikhi as well, there are so many people who have recieved kalyan before our religion came on earth lol.

Good then you'll accept that Dharmic people are born in all religions.

Hey, I think you have seemed to forgot that Sri NirgunaParaBrahman is in all, so if someone saved me, or I save myself it is the same thing essentially because there is no difference between beings/God, but I agree we should learn how to protect ourselves,

defeats the purpose of doing it yourself. Any of our Guru sahibs would have said a prayer and had all the mughals subjugated but they accomplished it all with their own hands. Sitting down and praying isn't going to solve the world's problems since (as im sure you do) in japji sahib this is Dharm Khand.

Can you give me the question of the 'muslim and the sikh'?

Who do you think God will listen to. A sikh who's mind is wandering around while he's reading Gurbani or a Muslim who's focusing on his love for Allah/God while he recites his prayers.

'? Respect doesn't mean believing just so you know, I respect everything because everything has Sri Ram inside them.

You just said that a Sikh prayer is stronger than a muslim prayer. I.E the way a muslim prays is off less importance to Waheguru compared to a Sikh.

There are plenty non humans who have been saved through bhagti, such as the elephant named 'Gajendra', or during the times of the Ramayan when the vanaras were all worshipping Sri Ram, and countless Devi Devtas(they are not human) all do bhagti and they achieved such a divine swaroop.

why are you so hell-bent on looking at Hindu mythology? I've never seen a dog who's sitting there reciting Phatt, again stop comparing Satyug to Kalyug.

and countless Devi Devtas(they are not human) all do bhagti and they achieved such a divine swaroop.

Even they come to earth as humans to do that. Hence on Earth Humans are the only beings capable of doing that. Why is it in Gurbani that it constantly reminds us not to waste our human life lol.

Let them bunch what they want, who cares what people call us,

Yeah you're right. Those Poor deluded Martyrs who died so we could call ourselves Sikhs wasted their lives. /sarcasm

. Well, look it says Baba Prahlad, and Baba Dhruv got liberated, did you forget what they did to achieve such a state? Let us see if you can attain kalyan while rejecting the ways of the saints.

They did Bhagti. In a forest. While detached. Then Guru Sahib said we shouldn't do it. lol. So once again you're ignoring that part.

Bhagti can be done at home or in the jungle,

And Guru Sahib said doing it in a forest in detachment is pointless :) . Living away from the world isn't going to do you any favors or increase your chances of meeting god.

but they say that when you are in the jungle and all alone in pain that is what takes your ahankar away and then you remember God more.

Then by all means, go live in a forest. You seem to think it's the ideal path.

While, sitting at home in a lavish environment most people forget God and indulge in other stuff, right?

A sikh can be rich and also be engrossed in simran? We weren't told to live like paupers.

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. Most people get too caught up in grishti lives and forget God though while fighting amongst themselves over petty issues.


A sikh wouldn't.


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I think most dharmic people would rather be alone than to live with a bad society.


Society isn't all bad and I just showed you a real live Mahapurkh who lived in this "society" and managed to do what we can only dream off.


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Like I said though, kalyan can be recieved both ways.


But we're taught against it. So you tell me who I should follow. Gurbani which discourages this or what Yogi's are trying :happy2:


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(just wondering your thought on:) would it still be isolation if you lived in a house on a mountain away from everyone? lol


You're away from society, you're trying to keep apart from the world and refuse to associate yourself with the world then it is isolation. I'm Assuming thats the purpose of that. Obviously if someone is travelling around while living far, going into town, helping out, taking part in the world its a different matter.


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Congrats on learning those Gurbanis :)


Hardly, I don't get them all done so I try and do as much as I can. I'm not familiar with them all but i have covered them in the sense I'm aware of what their teaching.

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Did you forget what the Zaffarnamah was?

No but it's clear you did. That was a letter done by Guru Gobind singh Ji outlining the misdeeds of Aurangzeb, if you read it, you'll see he was pointing out how many of his deeds were un-islamic and un-holy.

Besides, our Sri Gurus were teaching us the life of a normal person. It still takes effort to pray for refuge and protection, why else do you think our religion has kavach(es) (protection prayers).??

waheguru isn't going to protect you if you ask him to literally babysit you. That's what you want, someone to do everything for you because you don't want to do anything about it yourself.

Justice will be given at death to everyone, we should fight for ourselves, how can a person like me fight for someone else while we ourselves are confused lol

I totally agree. Now please wait while I write to my MP and tell him to release every murder,rapist,pedophile that's locked up. Since we have no power to do anything about them.

That question can go both ways, besides a Sikh's mind wouldn't go wandering if they were a true Sikh, right?

Yes it can but I'm not making it go both ways. I'm making it go one way so answer the question.

Yeah, our prayers are stronger

So you think sikhs are better than everyone else :)

Lol you are ignorant for thinking only humans can pray, I have given plenty of examples and then you don't know what to say and start name calling.

Examples from a by gone age? please show me a modern day animal that's reciting any form of Naam.

The story of Gajendra was in our religion if I remember correctly

No it's not. I scanned around and I found it only in Hinduism, where he is praying to Vishnu.

Oh really now, they don't come as humans on earth, they keep their Devta form. Look at Sri Ganga Devi, she still keeps her roop on earth and prays to God daily.

Their bound by life and death, hence they are bound by the same laws of man.

She even visits the Sri Gurdwaras to pray when so many people give their sin burdens to her. L

lol what?

if I started calling you names you wouldn't care since you know your true self. How many people will you keep convincing what you are, it's better to just pray for shanti instead of whining that someone called me this someone called me that etc etc.

Like i said all thse shaheeds who died to preserve our religion are fools in your eyes. If you're not willing to protect your own identity as a sikh then you are no Sikh. By your logic why didn't any of guru sahib just say tehy were muslim and then go back to their bhaghti, why didnt numerous sikhs just pretend to convert and then secretly do Bani. lol please.

Lol, we are supposed to try and become like those bhagats, look at their outcome after praying like that, we are wanting the same outcome, right

Their methods are discouraged in Gurbani, that's the crux of the problem. The Jungle method is utterly pointless to sikhs. why would you say it is neither better or worse, you can't do good deeds in a jungle isolated, you can't help humanity.

The goal of detachment is to get rid of all bad attachments, and how is that bad? Should we keep bad attachments according to you? I think not

Bad attachments can be eradicated within living in a populus. anyone who thinks otherwise is being ignorant.

If we are blessed with wealth with little effort that is fine, but we only work so that we can survive TO PRAY, not to enjoy life really, and we enjoy life automatically while we pray, unless some people think praying isn't enjoyment. I know many 'Sikhs' who get engrossed into their daily lives and don't even care about what bad stuff they are doing.

With more wealth one has more at their disposal to help others. We're not here just to PRAY. We're here to do GOOD DEEDS. If one has the intelligence to become the leader of an esteemed country by your logic I shouldn't use that because I can survive just without it. When i could easily take charge and then help thousands of other people. There's nothing in Gurbani stopping someone trying to become successful.

Yeah, he managed to do what we can only dream of, 'what we can only dream of' which means even if we try to do that we can still only dream of such a high state of mind right? God is also called the highest Yogi,

No, we can reach there. But you're not at his level yet, nor am I. Hence why I said only we which we can dream off. God is also called the Highest King, the mightiest power. Don't use the name of god to justify something Gurbani discourages.

I'm not against the jungle method at all, in fact didn't our 1st Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji perscribe the life the way his Baba Sri Chand ji lived? So? That means it isn't all bad to live in the jungle.

Sri Chand is criticized in Gurbani for turning his back on the Guru. Considering Guru Nanak preached against the Yogic way of life I find it hard to believe that Guru Nanak gave him the thumbs up for it. From what I'm aware Guru Nanak didn't order him to go and create the Udasi sect, he did that himself after Guru Sahib's death. He was still held in high regard and some of the Udasi teaching are Sikh orientated but there is aspects of Polytheism in there too.

A sikh won't adopt the jungle lifestyle. It's considered meaningless to us.

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Preeet please do us all a favor and go a jungle and enlighten some animals there with your wisdom.

By the way also tell us who teaches you lies which you state as fact such as Guru Nanak prescribed the jungle way to Sri Chand.

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While I do that, why don't you try the same with athiests, we will see how far you will get, they won't even care what you'd say even if they're humans.

It's you preaching jungle life not me.

also take some jaal from Sri Ganga devi too with you and some sweets for your elephant God too.

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Why do you use so much sarcasm, it won't help you escape 84 lakh juni.

your ganga jaal and jungle life surely will for you. when are you going?

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Yeah, and just by him reading that he was finished. What are you expecting in prayers? If you think you are so strong isn't that associated with ahankar? I can't do anything, Sri Vaheguru does everything for us, we can't do anything ourselves when it comes to mukhti and protection via phat.

Are you really going to compare a Political Stance to the turmoils of the Mughal-Sikh conflict? If Aurangzeb had been infront of Guru Sahib and attacked him, Guru Sahib wouldn't have sat down and took out a pen and gone "wait just a minute there" . He would have taken his blade and cut him down.

By that logic every evil thing I did was just waheguru's fault as you can't do anything, everything that is done is done by Waheguru. Whoops i murdered someone, that's ok Waheguru did it not me, as a result none of my good deeds make any difference. BUT OH WAIT Gurbani says ther all taken into account, so wait you tell me. Do you see the flaw in that lol. You read Japji sahib, you recite Karmi Apo Apni ki Nari ki dhoor. You can't blame any action or goings on here on Waheguru as everything that happens is accordance to his will but we're consciously making the choices for ourselves. I'm hardly referring to Mukhti or even anything remotely like that. If you're sikh you go to a doctor, if someone attacks you, you fight back rather than getting down and starting a prayer. You thank Waheguru for the strength to combat it, you don't ask him to do it for you when you're hardly helpless.

t. Do you know what a kavach even is? *waits for you to google it*

. All Gurbani is protection, one prayer doesn't magically grant it more than others. I didn't need to google that as I was aware of the "Kavach" bani. Anyone who thinks a certain bani will invoke a magic shield to protect them is deluding themselves. Any Bani can do that.

Sarcasm isn't a smart move, that's all you say when you don't know what to say xD

You still don't bother addressing the point because you have nothing to say about it. You see me pointing out the absurdness in your posts with sarcasm and you instantly assume im not making a point with it. You're logic is flawed and Gurbani even says that. But you're far too vain to even admit that. My sarcasm contains a point, if you can't understand that then its hardly my fault. Sarcasm is a means to express how ridiculous someone's point it. And yes I am mocking it. It's a simple enough concept, im sure you can keep up with it.

LOL gone age, yeah okay, look at those countless animals who go to mandir for example and bow down in the temple to the idol.

I guess that means we should all go and bow before idols now :( . Since you don't like science or anything this might help educate you,

That itself is hardly a feat worth getting impressed over since animals have been trained to sniff out bombs, take messages or in some cases even talk and mimic humans.

Let people say what they want, if we go divani in dharam and people call us nuts I'm not going to correct anyone, since they will find it out one day. No need to anounce to the world what you are lol, let them say what they want and focus on your bhagti that shaheeds protected for us.

They died so you could call yourself a Sikh and not be afraid of having your head ripped off. You're ashamed of that if you don't even bother correcting them. Sure let's let people call us what we want, but oh wait. Our Guru Sahib sacrificed everything so we could practice our religion and safely say "hey im a sikh" by your logic their all fools. What a disgusting thing to think.

Wow, just because it is somewhat of a Hindu story you think it is wrong, what about Baba Dhruv and Baba Prahlad's story, all hindus know their stories too mind you, that doesn't make it exclusive to them.

Hindu Stories also glorify Krishna as god, They also glorify Sati and other practices, im more than happy to ignore them if they never come up in Gurbani.

ਜਿਉਜਲਕੁੰਚਰੁਤਦੂਐਬਾਂਧਿਓਹਰਿਚੇਤਿਓਮੋਖਮੁਖਨੇ ॥੩॥

जिउजलकुंचरुतदूऐबांधिओहरिचेतिओमोखमुखने ॥३॥

Ji▫o jal kuncẖar ṯaḏū▫ai bāʼnḏẖi▫o har cẖeṯi▫o mokẖ mukẖne. ||3||

like the elephant, which was caught in the water by the crocodile; it remembered the Lord, and chanted the Lord's Name, and was released. ||3||

I wasn't aware it was mentioned in Gurbani, thank you for clarifying that. But like I said before that all happened in Satyug. Where animals were capable of speech and thought as well in some cases.

Nope, they are not bound to the same laws as man, they are different, they are NOT human at all.

They live and die like humans. what more do you want.

Yes, Sri Ganga Mahadevi has millions of worshippers who bathe in her pure waters and they leave their sins in her water, so then she takes their sins and bathe's in Sri Amritsar since she wants to let go of those sins too which weren't even hers.

what the actual am I reading.lol. Bathing in a river or even bathing in Amritsar doesn't rid you of your sins. What the actual lol. Do you ever read japji Sahib or just recite it in the morning lol.

j20b.gif

They're not fools in my eyes, you seem to care too much about what people think, which shows your ahankar levels lol.

Ahankar is now me pointing out the importance of our identity? oh ok sure. While you're at it, you should change your name too. That is just a name :( has no importance. Who cares what people call you. Or better yet why don't we stop calling ourselvess Sikhs. That should make things easier for you.

The jungle method isn't pointless, only people like you really think that,

You tell me who's the bigger fool. The one looking for a well in an urbanized society to get water or the man who drinks from the tap. Only people like me? time and time again Guru Nanak and all the other Gurus taught against it, they discouraged it. But time and time again Great Brahmgiani Preet Knows better and has no ordained that is the path of Sikhism!

It's hardly my fault that I think dharmic people of all religions exist. It's hardly my fault that I believe that the light of god can manifest anywhere in anyone following any faith. lol. So much for equality.

Good deeds can be taken away from us if Yamdhuts take us, they beat us and take our good deeds away

No they don't. What drugs are you lol.

ਕਰਮੀ ਕਰਮੀ ਹੋਇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ करमी करमी होइ वीचारु ॥ Karmī karmī ho▫e vīcẖār. By their deeds and their actions, they shall be judged.

ਕਚ ਪਕਾਈ ਓਥੈ ਪਾਇ ॥ कच पकाई ओथै पाइ ॥ Kacẖ pakā▫ī othai pā▫e. The ripe and the unripe, the good and the bad, shall there be judged.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗਇਆ ਜਾਪੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੩੪॥ नानक गइआ जापै जाइ ॥३४॥ Nānak ga▫i▫ā jāpai jā▫e. ||34|| O Nanak, when you go home, you will see this. ||34|

How are they being beaten out of you. Who the hell is teaching you this crap rofl. They beat you and drag you before the judge but they don't take away your good deeds lol.

Who are we to dispose wealth to other people, who do you think we are, why don't people just look at who we reicieved the wealth from AKA God and let those people go through the same path by asking for God for everything instead of asking us.

Good work on promoting an hierarchy. Ladies and Gentlemen Sri-Preet has decreed that Sikhs should under no circumstances strive for better-ness in life. Who are we to do use our wealth and power to help the poor and downtrodden. Who are we to stand up for the rights of others. Who are we to become good role models and install a nice environment in the world. It's pretty funny you think like that when Guru Hargobind had a similar discourse with a Samarth Ramdas.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Hargobind_and_Samarth_Ramdas

You should read that before talking about materialism.

, but they can't take our bhagti away so it is better to stick to bhagti and lead others to bhagti if they want what we have since I am sure they will achieve whatever they wanted and more, chances are they might even become bigger bhagts than us to God.

There's a funny thing about Bhagats. They all still did good deeds, even Druv the one you keep exemplifying

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Why aren't we at the same level at if we are doing what he does? What more do we have to do then according to you?

.

Are you actually saying that at present you and I are as wise as him? that our intelligence is on his level? are you actually saying that we're comparable to him as of this minute. As we're typing? Are you actually saying we're mahapurkhs with knowledge on Gurbani akin to his?

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I haven't read it from my eyes, but I have been told it many many times by elders.

Then don't assert facts you can't back up. My Family friend who's a Sikh goes and worships at a Mandhir too, she's my elder. lol. Most of the "Elders" just pull stuff out of thin air without any Gurbani or history to back it up. He started the Udasi sect after Guru Nanak's departure, he's criticized in Gurbani for rebelling against Guru Nanak. That alone should tell you if you Guru sahib ordered him or not.

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Polytheism isn't even real just so you know, everything is Sri Vaheguru aka Ik Onkar

They worship the Deity in the form of them as gods. Not Waheguru. There are millions of Vishnu,Shiva,Brahma. We're all a part of Waheguur but they sure as heck aint Waheguru.

Also please answer my question. No "but it could go either way" no follow up questions. My scenario is as follows.

Who is Waheguru more likely to help. A Sikh doing Patt but isn't paying attention or a Muslim doing a Muslim prayer but is focusing on god with his total love and devotion.

I don't want any "then he's not a true gursikh" just answer the question. Those are conditions, nothing else. If comprehending that is beyond you then I don't know how else I can dumb it down for you.

JSinghnz, on 25 Jul 2015 - 01:32, said:

your ganga jaal and jungle life surely will for you. when are you going?

She should go take a Bath in Ganga river. All her sins will wash away with the devi and then the devi can pay for the fare to have it transported to Amritsar. Save up on her doing that trip.

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Preet Ji u seem to have knowledge of bhagti but one thing you don't seem to understand is that All are Gods creation, good and bad. If one cannot change somebody, then one should change themselves. There is no need to run away from the world, just change the sangat. And live in the world as ones bhagti may reflect on somebody else which could change them too .

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