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Guest jigsaw_puzzled_singh

History of the Khanda symbol part deaux

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Guest jigsaw_puzzled_singh

With reference to a discussion taking place on the main thread regarding the khanda : There is a touch of deja vu about this discussion as it seems to be the same people having the same brand new discussion again. This is a 'I said...he said' between me and dallysingh100 a while ago:

I said:

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The origin of the Khanda symbol as we know it today is the Rattray Regiment of the British Army.

However, this is my thoughts on the matter from an historical perspective:

Whilst it was never the symbol of the Sikhs during the time of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji I think we have to show enough understanding of Guru ji and the Singhs of that era and appreciate the fact that their (especially Guru ji's) knowledge of pre-Islamic ancient Persian was so vast that it actually put the Persians of that era to shame. Whilst things such as the fact that Guru ji gave his sons Persian names, we Sikhs bypassed the Muslim culture around us and took on Persian words such as 'sardar' for nobleman, Dastar for turban, Dastar Bandi for turban tying ceremony for boys etc all give us clues as to which direction Sikhs looked to for words and culture it is in fact the Sikh word 'Nihung' that gives us the best indication of how the Sikhs were more knowledgable about ancient Persian than the Persians. I use the word 'nihung' as an exaample because the sikh history books continously (aand wrongly) state that the word 'nihung' is Persian for crocodile. This is wrong. The fact is that the word 'nihung' doesn't even exist in Persian. Guru ji, however, was so knowledgable about ancient / pre-Islamic Persian culture he knew that such a word did exist in classical ancient persian thousands of years ago (it meant 'mythical sea creature' in ancient Persian). Thus, we cannot and should not rule out the possibility that Guru ji was also knowledgable about another ancient / long-lost pre-islamic Persian symbol that signified martyrdom (or shaheedi) of the young. That ancient symbol was a tulip with two swords on the sides. In 1979, the Iranians 're-discovered' their ancient symbol and made it their national flag, hence why today the Sikhs and Iran have identical flags but my theory is that it is possible that the Sikhs of our Guru's time knew about that ancient shaheedi symbol long before the modern persians 're-discovered' it.

 

Dallysingh101 said:

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About 4 years ago I asked a student I was teaching about this very thing. She brought in a Persian-English dictionary and I specifically asked her to look up crocodile - and nihang was in there. It wasn't the first entry (more towards the latter synonyms) but it was there - so you appear to misled.

 

I then said:

 

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No I'm not misled. Children or adults that draw their conclusions from 'asking one bloke' are misled. I've spent years researching and absorbing knowledge and its the kind of knowledge that deserves alot more respect than an attempt to be trumped by something one solitary bloke told you.

The Persian word for crocodile is 'temsah'. The word nihung does however still exist today in those persian languages that resisted Islamification / Arabisation of their language, such as Kurdish and Armenian where it means, as I stated before, a mythical sea monster / creature and let us remember how a person that sees a crocodile for the first time would be well within his rights to see it as a 'sea monster'.

However, I think it is entirely plausible for the word 'nihung' to appear in a modern day Persian dictionary, as you state. Plausiblle because of the strange and short-lived shift that occurred in Persian in the decade 1935 to 1945. The Shah of Iran, in 1935, made a public announcement asking scholars and poets to discard modern Persian words rooted in Arabic and revert back to old ancient Persian words. He asked the Iranians to embrace what he called "farsi-e-sareh", or 'pure persian'.Thus a shift started to take place in Persian. Its quite interesting really because we often hear our grandparents say the word 'afsar' when referring to an officer of some description and of course we think it must be a colloqiual Punjabi mispronounciation of the English word 'officer'. However, that is not the case. Given Punjabi's extremely close relationship to Persian, the word actually existed in Punjabi long before any English speaker ever set foot in Punjab. The word 'afsar' comes from the pre-Arabisation Persian word for 'crown', thus afsar signifies a servant of the crown. From Punjabi the word was adopted by the brand new language of Urdu and from Urdu the Shah of Iran, in 1935, re-introduced it into the Persian language by deliberately using it, for the very first time in centuries in Iran, in his passionate speech calling for 'farsi-e-sareh'. And so, in 1935, the Persian word 'afsar' was reintroduced into the Persian language despite the fact that we Punjabis had been using it continously for hundreds of years. By the same token, it is entirely plausible that the word 'nihung' could well have re-entered the Persian language to a small degree in 1935 as part of the persianization process because the current, mass used, farsi word for crocodile is rooted in Arabic : 'tamseh'

 

 

Dallysingh101 then said:

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Fool. She brought the dictionary in.

Do you think they printed it to fool Sikh people or something.

 

 

I then said:

 

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Your penchant for arguing just to make yourself look less useless than you actually are makes you deaf, dumb and blind Dallysingh101. And there is no bigger fool than a man that deliberately closes his eyes and ears and pretends that he just doesn't hear or see. Lets try a second time hoping that you may finally snap out of that ignorant arrogant shell of yours. Its in English, not Swahili. Try reading it this time:

The Persian word for crocodile is 'temsah'. The word nihung does however still exist today in those persian languages that resisted Islamification / Arabisation of their language, such as Kurdish and Armenian where it means, as I stated before, a mythical sea monster / creature and let us remember how a person that sees a crocodile for the first time would be well within his rights to see it as a 'sea monster'.

However, I think it is entirely plausible for the word 'nihung' to appear in a modern day Persian dictionary, as you state. Plausiblle because of the strange and short-lived shift that occurred in Persian in the decade 1935 to 1945. The Shah of Iran, in 1935, made a public announcement asking scholars and poets to discard modern Persian words rooted in Arabic and revert back to old ancient Persian words. He asked the Iranians to embrace what he called "farsi-e-sareh", or 'pure persian'.Thus a shift started to take place in Persian. Its quite interesting really because we often hear our grandparents say the word 'afsar' when referring to an officer of some description and of course we think it must be a colloqiual Punjabi mispronounciation of the English word 'officer'. However, that is not the case. Given Punjabi's extremely close relationship to Persian, the word actually existed in Punjabi long before any English speaker ever set foot in Punjab. The word 'afsar' comes from the pre-Arabisation Persian word for 'crown', thus afsar signifies a servant of the crown. From Punjabi the word was adopted by the brand new language of Urdu and from Urdu the Shah of Iran, in 1935, re-introduced it into the Persian language by deliberately using it, for the very first time in centuries in Iran, in his passionate speech calling for 'farsi-e-sareh'. And so, in 1935, the Persian word 'afsar' was reintroduced into the Persian language despite the fact that we Punjabis had been using it continously for hundreds of years. By the same token, it is entirely plausible that the word 'nihung' could well have re-entered the Persian language to a small degree in 1935 as part of the persianization process because the current, mass used, farsi word for crocodile is rooted in Arabic : 'tamseh'.

As for the ineptitude you displayed with your meaningless hundreds of photographs about Rattray's Regiment: You do realise that when one says the Rattray Sikh Regiment badge is the "origin' of the Sikh symbol" he is NOT saying the Rattray Regiment symbol is the Sikh symbol....don't you ?? I mean you do realise that when a teacher says man's origins lay in apes he is not calling the man an ape....don't you ? :stupidme:

 

 

Ranjeet01 said:

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Does everything about Punjabi have to come from Persian and Arabic. Is our language just a mongrel language?

Has the Punjabi language influenced any other language?

 

 

I then said:

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The answer to your first question is the fact that Punjab was always, for thousands of years, an integral province of Persia and entirely seperate from anything we would know today as 'India' Punjab was Persia's easternmost state and its most celebrated and richest.

The answer to your second question is the fact that Punjabi is the big daddy of 'em all. Nearly a thousand years older than Hindi and 2000 years older than Urdu. Being the ancient language that it is, it has influenced every language in northern India and Pakistan. It is the daddy of them all.

 

 

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Guest guest

"The answer to your first question is the fact that Punjab was always, for thousands of years, an integral province of Persia and entirely seperate from anything we would know today as 'India' Punjab was Persia's easternmost state and its most celebrated and richest."

this is a complete lie.

 

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Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh
8 hours ago, Guest guest said:

"The answer to your first question is the fact that Punjab was always, for thousands of years, an integral province of Persia and entirely seperate from anything we would know today as 'India' Punjab was Persia's easternmost state and its most celebrated and richest."

this is a complete lie.

 

Why the ADMIN here doesn't list all the false 'guest' accounts that London Jawan Singh makes is completely beyond me but the only lie here is your existence. Punjab was not only Persia's  easternmost satrapie (province) it was also it's richest. This fact is even inscribed on one of the ancient columns in the ancient city of Persopolis. 

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