Usage of satguru phrase and status of krishan in gurbani

[Bijla Singh]

Hardeep singh ji,

There are three layers of one amrit ceremony- one intiation(outer intiation- khanda batta) amrit, second most important is naam amrit, then third amrit is bhramgyan amrit attained by kaamiya of naam amrit.

No one is denying that sikh women didnt had naam amrit or attained bhramgyan amrit at the end, off course they had naam amrit along with rehats , otherwise they be nirguraie falls into category of guru maharaj ji tuk- gurmantar hin prani kokar, shokar...

i think point here discussed by sikha that there is no puratan resources mentioning that women had khanda batta da amrit (outer intiation) whereas male intiation is mentioned all over in 1699 and afterwards.. No one is disputing that they didnt had any amrit at all. They might have just had - naam amri along naam jugti/vidhi via kirpan amrit or naam amrit alone by mahapurshs in panj pyares seva. This is what we are trying to khoj.

I would like to see reference from Gurbani that there are three layers of Amrit? In fact, Amrit is one as Gurbani says, “Nanak Amrit Ek Hai..” and “Amrit Peeya Satgur Deeya”. Khanday Ki Pahul is a way of initiation and obtaining naam. Once received Sikh will be on the path to sachkhand. No one can be a Sikh of Guru Sahib without taking Amrit and keeping rehat. Charan Pahul was changed to Khanday Ki Pahul after which no other form of initiation existed. Kirpan Amrit is and was never used as a way of initiation. It is used for birth sanskar only.

Did any of the Bhagats recieve Khande di pahul? no, but they were still mukht. Bhai Gurdass mentions muslims having merged with God, did any of these recieve Amrit from the Gurus ? no.

All Bhagats were Sikhs of Guru Sahib. This discussion has taken place so do a search before you start this debate.

the inition of Khande di pahul is a initiation into a warrior elite, which is also why Guru Maharaj added the sword and the sipahi to make them warriors.... the fact that most "Khalsa's" of today are men with fat bellies and have a lousi health condition, that they know nothing about chivalry and how to swing a sword or use a gun shows that the panth have completed forgotten the purpose of creating the khalsa, and have put Khande di amrit initiation down to the level of christian baptism, which is not respected at all by most christians.

Do you have any reference? 41 Vaar of Bhai Gurdas Singh written in 1700, Gursobha, Mehima Parkash and Bhatt Vahis state otherwise. Every Khalsa is a Sant Sipahi. Bhai Taru Singh Ji, Bhai Mani Singh Ji, Bhai Shabeg Singh, Bhai Shabaaz Singh and countless other gursikhs were not part of any warrior jatha but were Amritdharis. Guru Sahib did not give Amrit to selected individuals but to everyone. Bhai Dalla became Dall Singh after taking Amrit. Now tell me, which jatha did he join to fight?

some rehatnamas written many many years after 1708 seem to indicate that the Charan di pahul from panj pyare were still active during the period after 1708 which might suggest that initiation into the "Sant" aspect of religion was charan di pahul, and initiation into the warrior elite sant sipahi was the Khande di pahul which at the time was only allowed for men.

Rubbish. Charan Pahul was abandoned in 1699. There is one account in Bhatt Vahis that Bhai Nand Laal was given Charan Pahul and in 1699 also took Amrit and became Nand Singh. Charan Pahul was only given by Guru Sahib. After 1708 who had the right to give it? Whose charan were washed? Which rehatnamas are these which you are referencing? If Guru Sahib started Khanday Ki Pahul then why keep charan pahul? It makes no sense.

Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Khaneya, Mata Sahib Devi, Mata Sundari,.. none of them took amrit from Khande, but they have porbably taken Charan di pahul amrit from Maharaj and lived the lives of Sant...

I have explained Bhai Nand Singh Ji took Amrit. Bhai Khaneya Ji’s account in also recorded in Bhatt Vahis. Mehals of Guru Sahib took Amrit. Read Gurbani Paath Darshan in which Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji has given reference.

Charan Pahul was changed to Khanday Ki Pahul. Women prior to 1699 were given charan pahul. This was the way of initiation. Don’t try to bring gursikhi down to the level of inequality of Islam. Sikhi is far superior and advocates equality. I don't know why you have to change the topic and bring in your santan manmat. If it wasn't for Singh Sabha we would be seeing these santanis worshiping idols in Darbar Sahib.

[KH4L1$T4N1]

^THANK YOU!!!!

when will the snatanist camp stop spreading manmat cr@p?

[N30S1NGH]

I would like to see reference from Gurbani that there are three layers of Amrit? In fact, Amrit is one as Gurbani says, “Nanak Amrit Ek Hai..” and “Amrit Peeya Satgur Deeya”. Khanday Ki Pahul is a way of initiation and obtaining naam. Once received Sikh will be on the path to sachkhand. No one can be a Sikh of Guru Sahib without taking Amrit and keeping rehat. Charan Pahul was changed to Khanday Ki Pahul after which no other form of initiation existed. Kirpan Amrit is and was never used as a way of initiation. It is used for birth sanskar only.

In gurbani, any amrit refers to amrit ras, naam amrit any mahapursh will tell you this. You show me an reference from gurbani- where gurbani talks about khanda da amrit/charan amrit. Gurbani doesnt talk about outer layer of amrit, but it talks inner amrit- which is naam amrit, atam ras(bhramgyan amrit).

Therer is only amrit which is naam amrit/ amrit ras- bhramgyan amrit--- khanda da amrit, charan amrit, kirpan amrit are all outer layer of that naam amrit.

All bhagats were mukht before sri guru nanak dev ji, stop your tat khalsa progaganda, dont you get tired of same lies lies and lies?

[N30S1NGH]

What you guys think bhagat kabir, ravidasa, namdev, sain, trilochan, ramanad, bhagat fareed, bhagat sadhna were? were they not sikhs yet maintaining outer garb (customs) of their culture (rehna-behna) to some extent?

True bhagats which are included in sri guru granth sahib ji didnt follow socio-religious boundaries of their own dharam (ie- islam, hinduism) they belong mystical orders of their dharam ie- sufi, shavism, advait vedanta.

All the bhagats which are included in sri guru granth sahib ji were jevan mukht, they didnt belong to any specific dharam, they were not hard core followers of hindu panth nor they were rehitdhari khalsa, they were all almast fakirs who didnt gave two hoots about socio-religious-economic boundaries of their own religions or others.

In my eyes, all the bhagats were sikhs didnt need to be khalsa in order to get jevan mukhti, they were already jevan mukht you can tell that by their gurbani included in sri guru granth sahib ji.

Sikh and Khalsa are same when it comes to avastha but these are relative terrms ie- different type of intiation for eg- kabir panthis or sufi farid followers their intitation may be different than khalsa but internal naam/ bhramgyan amrit is one, they are relative terms could be both applied in socio-religious circle (panthic maryada) as well mystical traditions of any dharam.

For example:

In Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib:

Atam Ras Neh Jannehi Sio Haie Khalsa Dev,

Prab Meh Mo Meh Tas Meh Ranchak Naeh Bhaiv ||

The one who has entered the sphere of atma(self), he alone is worthy of the title of the khalsa, he becomes one with me the guru and ultimately God.There is no difference.

Above quote can be applied both ways to a) an khalsa who have taken intiation of khanda batta amrit and applied guru maharaj sikhi in his/her life and tasted atam ras.

Above quote also dedicated (if you look at it more antriv(Deeply) arths to b) anyone of any dharam abroad away from socio-religious circle(panthic circle) to anyone who has realize his own true self(atma).

Now lets look at this quote:

Here Guru Gobind singh ji directly explains Khalsa.

"The Khalsa is my exceptional Image,

In the Khalsa ever resides my Spirit.

The Khalsa is my Beloved and Venerable Master,

The Khalsa is my divine Protector.

The Khalsa is my Father and Mother,

The Khalsa is my body and soul.

The Khalsa is embodiment of true and perfect Guru.

The Khalsa is my Gallant and Knightly friend.

I have stated the truth without an iota of misconstruction.

God and Guru Nanak are to this my witnesses."

Guru Gobind Singh, Sarb Loh Granth, (MS), 519-526.

This quote looks like more dedicated towards khalsa from socio-religious circle than from mystical circle.

Guys, if gurmat gursikhi marg was that simple then we wouldnt need bhramgyanis in the panth, any tom, di ck , harry scholar can decipher gurmat gursikhi marg.

Last but not least, here are few words of my teacher, he puts all well together- listen to it:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audi...0is%20anadi.mp3

[00gurpreet_singh00]

All bhagats were mukht before sri guru nanak dev ji

Before guru nanak dev jee? I never knew there was a 'before sri guru nanak dev ji'...I thought sikhi was anaadi, Guru was anaadi...what happened to that?

[Guest Akirtghan]

now ur just reading into it. he meant before the physical saroop of waheguru we call guru nanak sahib ji

[00gurpreet_singh00]

now ur just reading into it. he meant before the physical saroop of waheguru we call guru nanak sahib ji

Thats my point. You can say vaahiguroo or you can say Guru Nanak Dev Jee, comes down to it, its all the same thing. Nirgun aap, sargun bhee ohee. Aap naarain kalaa dhaar jag mehi parvario. This whole argument about 'salvation' before guru nanak dev jee or not makes no sense to me because there is no before guru nanak dev jee...There has always been guru nanak dev jee.

I was listening to katha a couple days ago by Baba Pooran Singh, vidyarthi of Sant Gurbachan Singh and he told a sakhi and said he got it from a janamsaakhi. The first time guru nanak dev jee met Bhai Lalo physically, Guru Nanak Dev jee didnt say 'I'm Guru Nanak', they said 'pacchan liya?' (did you recognize me?). Bhai Lalo was alredy mukt and had met Guru Nanak Dev Ji, just in a different roop.

My point is that who are we to restrict what Guru can do and what god cant do...Guru Nanak Dev Jee and vaahiguroo have no difference between them and thus placing restrictions on them makes no sense.

[N30S1NGH]

now ur just reading into it. he meant before the physical saroop of waheguru we call guru nanak sahib ji

yes thats what i meant, sometimes to discuss you have to use people language.

[Guest Hardeep_S_Khalsa]

I would like to see reference from Gurbani that there are three layers of Amrit? In fact, Amrit is one as Gurbani says, “Nanak Amrit Ek Hai..” and “Amrit Peeya Satgur Deeya”. Khanday Ki Pahul is a way of initiation and obtaining naam. Once received Sikh will be on the path to sachkhand. No one can be a Sikh of Guru Sahib without taking Amrit and keeping rehat. Charan Pahul was changed to Khanday Ki Pahul after which no other form of initiation existed. Kirpan Amrit is and was never used as a way of initiation. It is used for birth sanskar only.

Did any of the Bhagats recieve Khande di pahul? no, but they were still mukht. Bhai Gurdass mentions muslims having merged with God, did any of these recieve Amrit from the Gurus ? no.

All Bhagats were Sikhs of Guru Sahib. This discussion has taken place so do a search before you start this debate.

the inition of Khande di pahul is a initiation into a warrior elite, which is also why Guru Maharaj added the sword and the sipahi to make them warriors.... the fact that most "Khalsa's" of today are men with fat bellies and have a lousi health condition, that they know nothing about chivalry and how to swing a sword or use a gun shows that the panth have completed forgotten the purpose of creating the khalsa, and have put Khande di amrit initiation down to the level of christian baptism, which is not respected at all by most christians.

Do you have any reference? 41 Vaar of Bhai Gurdas Singh written in 1700, Gursobha, Mehima Parkash and Bhatt Vahis state otherwise. Every Khalsa is a Sant Sipahi. Bhai Taru Singh Ji, Bhai Mani Singh Ji, Bhai Shabeg Singh, Bhai Shabaaz Singh and countless other gursikhs were not part of any warrior jatha but were Amritdharis. Guru Sahib did not give Amrit to selected individuals but to everyone. Bhai Dalla became Dall Singh after taking Amrit. Now tell me, which jatha did he join to fight?

some rehatnamas written many many years after 1708 seem to indicate that the Charan di pahul from panj pyare were still active during the period after 1708 which might suggest that initiation into the "Sant" aspect of religion was charan di pahul, and initiation into the warrior elite sant sipahi was the Khande di pahul which at the time was only allowed for men.

Rubbish. Charan Pahul was abandoned in 1699. There is one account in Bhatt Vahis that Bhai Nand Laal was given Charan Pahul and in 1699 also took Amrit and became Nand Singh. Charan Pahul was only given by Guru Sahib. After 1708 who had the right to give it? Whose charan were washed? Which rehatnamas are these which you are referencing? If Guru Sahib started Khanday Ki Pahul then why keep charan pahul? It makes no sense.

Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Khaneya, Mata Sahib Devi, Mata Sundari,.. none of them took amrit from Khande, but they have porbably taken Charan di pahul amrit from Maharaj and lived the lives of Sant...

I have explained Bhai Nand Singh Ji took Amrit. Bhai Khaneya Ji’s account in also recorded in Bhatt Vahis. Mehals of Guru Sahib took Amrit. Read Gurbani Paath Darshan in which Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji has given reference.

Charan Pahul was changed to Khanday Ki Pahul. Women prior to 1699 were given charan pahul. This was the way of initiation. Don’t try to bring gursikhi down to the level of inequality of Islam. Sikhi is far superior and advocates equality. I don't know why you have to change the topic and bring in your santan manmat. If it wasn't for Singh Sabha we would be seeing these santanis worshiping idols in Darbar Sahib.

Good post

[N30S1NGH]

Here is tuk from gurbani:

Nau Nidh Amrit Prab Ka Naam, Dehi Meh Iska Visraam ||

Nau Nidha, riddi sidhiya da malak , amrit ras , prab ka "naam" , usda bisraam deh vich hai.

Naam amrit- prab ka naam.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji its not a deh roop he is jot nirankari saroop, reason i said bhagats were mukht before sri guru nanak dev ji is because these agyani thinks, bhagats had to come back to take amrit from guru sahib so that they can be "mukht". If one beleives sri guru nanak dev ji, sikh is anadi-naturally Sikhi is ever Sanatan(eternal) cannot be bound to socio-religious boundaries unlike other dharams....!

Sri Ram Chandra is a Sikh from Satyug so as Krishan so as Rishi Balmik so as Raja Janak So as Bhagat Kabir So as Bhagat Farid , Bhagat Namdev, Ravidas, Bhagat Pipa, Jain, Sadhna, Gangka Papan -------- list just goes on and on and on- infinite........!!!!!!!!!!!!

If sri guru nanak dev ji is nirgun saroopi nirankari jot and is anandi, then by same logic, ram chandar, krishan being hari avtar, all the bhagats avtars, raja janak nit avtar who also came from nirgun saroopi nirankari jot are anandi as well, you cannot claim that bhagats had to come back as singhs and take amrit so that they can be mukht. this twisted logic is only used by sharia panthis, agyani.