Sat Purakh And Satguru

[Bijla Singh]

Sat Purakh and Satguru

Naam or Gurmantar is the Shabad Saroop of Waheguru that brings salvation and serves as the bridge between soul and Waheguru. Naam is obtained from Satguru. Gurbani says:

myry mIq gurdyv mo kau rwm nwmu prgwis ]

O my Best Friend, O Divine Guru, please enlighten me with the Name of the Lord.

gur mMqR hIxs´ jo pRwxI iDRgMq jnm BRstxh ]

That mortal who lacks the Guru's Mantra - cursed and contaminated is his life.

It is clear that Naam is important to get salvation and is only obtained from Satguru. Then who is Satguru? Satguru means True Guru like who there is none other. He alone is like Himself.

ieko siqguru jwgqw horu jgu sUqw moih ipAwis ]

Only the Guru is awake; the rest of the world is asleep in emotional attachment and desire.

iekw bwxI ieku guru ieko sbdu vIcwir ]

There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate.

There is only One True Guru in the world. He alone is always awake. He is not in the cycle of death and birth.

siqguru myrw sdw sdw nw AwvY n jwie ]

My True Guru, forever and ever, does not come and go.

There is only One Satguru who gives naam and He never takes birth and therefore never dies. There have been many prophets, messengers, angels and what not but they all took birth and died. Neither did they ever give naam nor were they given the status of Satguru. There have been, are and will be many self-styled Gurus but only One is given the status of Satguru by Waheguru and that is Guru Nanak Sahib. He is the greatest of all and the true savior.

sB qy vfw siqguru nwnku ijin kl rwKI myrI ]4]10]57]

Guru Nanak is the greatest of all; He saved my honor in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||4||10||57||

Satguru Nanak Sahib did not take birth but emerged in the world.

siqgur nwnk pRgitAw imtI DuMD jg cwnx hoAw]

With the emergence of the true Guru Nanak, the mist cleared and the light scattered all around.

He appeared in Sargun form in the world. He has been Satguru since the beginning. Bhatts say:

qU siqguru chu jugI Awip Awpy prmysru ]

You are the True Guru, throughout the four ages; You Yourself are the Transcendent Lord.

Hence it is clear that Guru Sahib, the jot saroop of Waheguru, is the Satguru of all ages and times. He was already a Satguru when appeared before the world and fog of ignorance and false rituals disappeared. All Bhagats, saints, yogis and others who did bhagtee were not Satguru since there can only be One Satguru.

Some Sikhs use the panktee in Sukhmani Sahib to justify that Satguru can be anyone.

siq purKu ijin jwinAw siqguru iqs kw nwau ]

The one who knows the True Lord God, is called the True Guru.

iqs kY sMig isKu auDrY nwnk hir gun gwau ]1]

In His Company, the Sikh is saved, O Nanak, singing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||1||

Although it is clear from the Saloak and the remaining Aastpaddi that the panktee refers to fourth embodiment of Guru Nanak Sahib. Words Brahmgyani, Sant, Sadh, Satgur etc all refer to Guru Raamdas Ji who is satsaroop of Guru Nanak Sahib. Some panktees make it crystal clear who Satguru is:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ ਕਉ ਨਾਮ ਧਨੁ ਦੇਇ ॥

One who gives naam is Satguru. As shown above only Satguru has that right and He is only One. Some more panktees make it clear that Satguru cannot be just anyone.

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਹੈ ॥

ਮਨੁ ਬੇਚੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥

Above two panktees prove that a Sikh or a devotee must give up his own mind and obey the hukam of Guru. In Anand Sahib, similar instruction is given to Sikhs

ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਉਪਿ ਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮੰਨਿਐ ਪਾਈਐ ॥

Surrender body, mind, wealth, and everything to the Guru; obey the Order of His Will, and you will find Him.

Who is the Satguru that Guru Arjan Sahib Ji is talking about? He says:

ਬੀਸ ਬਿਸਵੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥

ਪੂਰਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਖ੍ਹਓ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ॥

That Satpurakh is Poora or complete. “Bees Bisvai” means someone who is undoubtedly a complete Guru. Second line says that Satguru is Poora Guru who gives Gurmantar which must be chanted by the Sikhs (followers). One most important line in the entire shabad is the following:

ਨਿਰਗੁਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਸਰਗੁਨੁ ਭੀ ਓਹੀ ॥

Satguru is Nirgun and Sargun. Now, it becomes clear that Satguru cannot be any human being, prophets or bhagat since none of them were nirgun. Nirgun is only Waheguru and His Sargun saroop is Guru Nanak Sahib. None other can ever get this status. Some will still doubt that Bhagats who became mukat or achieved salvation refer to their respective Gurus as Satguru but this is false as the following panktee makes it clear:

ਅਨਿਕ ਭਗਤ ਬੰਦਨ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ॥

Countless Bhagats including Ramanand, Kabir, Farid, Dhroo, Prehlaad and others revere and sing glorious praises of Satguru. Besides, it has been shown above that Satguru Guru Nanak Sahib is the greatest of all. Since He is the greatest none other can become equal to Him.

Some gullible Sikhs may still doubt that other Bhagats can reach the status of Satguru. Many scholars give the meanings of the saloak the same way but none have explained the essence behind it. As far as I know only Bhai Randhir Singh Ji has explained the implied meaning behind this saloak. The following is based on his work:

To know the Satpurakh completely is impossible for the humans. They can only realize Him and follow His Hukam. To claim to have known Him is a blasphemy. Only Waheguru Himself knows His greatness. Many claim to have known Him for the sake of calling themselves Gurus but they are nothing but fake. For such people Guru Sahib says:

ਅੰਤ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਬਿਲਲਾਹਿ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੇ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਪਾਏ ਜਾਹਿ ॥

ਏਹੁ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਕਹੀਐ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਹੋਇ ॥

Many struggle to know His limits, but His limits cannot be found. No one can know these limits. The more you say about them, the more there still remains to be said.

He is so great that more one praises Him less and less it gets. In other words, His praises will never be enough and more one praises greater He becomes and gets.

ਅਤਿ ਊਚਾ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਰਬਾਰਾ ॥ ਅੰਤੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰਾ ॥

ਕੋਟਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਲਖ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥1॥

His Darbaar, His Court, is the most lofty and exalted. It has no end or limitations. Millions, millions, tens of millions seek, but they cannot find even a tiny bit of His Mansion. ||1||

There are no limits. He is beyond time and form. He is timeless form that has neither beginning nor end. How could human creatures that hardly live for 100 years get to know Waheguru or realize His limits since He is beyond time? Knowing the timeless is not possible for those under the influence of time. Those who born and die can never be at that level. To realize Him or know Him, one must also be beyond time and as great as Him. Only a Satguru has that level since Satguru is beyond the cycle of death and birth. Satguru, Sargun Waheguru, is also beyond time. Gurbani says:

ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਊਚਾ ਥਾਉ ॥ ਊਚੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਊਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥

ਏਵਡੁ ਊਚਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਊਚੇ ਕਉ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਇ ॥

Great is the Master, High is His Heavenly Home. Highest of the High, above all is His Name. Only one as Great and as High as God can know His Lofty and Exalted State.

Many prophets, bhagats and others can never be Satguru Waheguru Himself knows His greatness. None other have been, are or will ever be as great as Waheguru. Those who make such claims are “Moorakh Sir Moorakh” and “Gaavara Gaavaar”. Many Sikhs during the time of Guru Sahib and afterwards were blessed with visions of Waheguru and had all the powers in the world but none ever dared to call themselves Satguru. No Sikh ever gave naam to others. Baba Buddha Ji was a great Sikh scholar and none other could match his knowledge yet he was humble and always remained the servant of the Guru. He never made any claims. True Sikhs know that all the blessings are obtained by the grace of the Guru. Therefore, they always submit themselves to the Guru. They never considered themselves equal to the Guru because they were Sikhs not Satguru. Satguru is always the greatest. Naam from Satguru merges one with Waheguru but naam doesn’t make anyone Waheguru. Like a drop of water merges with the ocean but that drop itself is not an ocean. It is the greatness of the ocean to merge the drop of water but then the drop would not exist.

Those who claim to know the Waheguru and call themselves Satguru are false and Gurbani says:

ਸੋਈ ਅਜਾਣੁ ਕਹੈ ਮੈ ਜਾਨਾ ਜਾਨਣਹਾਰੁ ਨ ਛਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥

One who claims to know, is ignorant; he does not know the Knower of all.

Only Satguru Nanak Sahib is the knower of Waheguru since He is Waheguru Himself. True Sikhs always long for Gurmat and wish to remain in the feet of the Guru. Those who have the desire to call themselves “Sants/Brahmgyanis” and seek followers will never achieve anything. Sikh is always a Sikh. There is no place for Sants in Sikhi since every Sikh is a Sant and Sipahi. Those who do naam abhiyaas and reach higher spiritual state ware also Sikhs and do not become higher than other Sikhs. Being the son of Guru Sahib should be more than enough. Only egomaniacs and pakhandis leave Sikhi and seek special status. In Gurmat there is only Guru and Sikh. Only Guru Sahib knows the Satpurakh Waheguru. He is the greatest of all and none else will ever be like Him.

ਸਚੁ ਸਚਾ ਸਭ ਦੂ ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਲਏ ਜਿਸੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਟਿਕੇ ॥

ਸੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਿ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਇਕੇ ॥

ਸੋਈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਪੰਜੇ ਦੂਤ ਕੀਤੇ ਵਸਿ ਛਿਕੇ ॥

ਜਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਆਪੁ ਗਣਾਇਦੇ ਤਿਨ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੂੜੁ ਫਿਟੁ ਫਿਟੁ ਮੁਹ ਫਿਕੇ ॥

ਓਇ ਬੋਲੇ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਮੁਹ ਕਾਲੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਚੁਕੇ ॥8॥

The True Lord is truly the greatest of all; he alone obtains Him, who is anointed by the Guru. He is the True Guru, who meditates on the True Lord. The True Lord and the True Guru are truly One. He is the True Guru, the Primal Being, who has totally conquered his five passions. One who does not serve the True Guru, and who praises himself, is filled with falsehood within. Cursed, cursed is his ugly face. His words are not pleasing to anyone; his face is blackened, and he is separated from the True Guru. ||8||

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[N30S1NGH]

Bijla Singh, this is already discussed in previous debates with you. You seem hell bent on one point, good to your beleif. You write this post so that sangat can read it, i would also like to post my thoughts which i posted in earlier threads and let sangat decide if sikhi is really black and white as you like to claim it. Also you have a big tendency to misinterpertating gurbani as you did other threads- bed ketab shabad you were challenged by pal07 which you had no answer and ignored his posts. Anyway you are guilty of blasphemy misinterperet gurbani like a dalal(pimp) to suit your fascist agenda. Atleast I dont claim to interpret gurbani but luckily by guru's grace have enough sources in my library of various teekas of panth ratans (recnognized by jathedars, sikh academica, used in gurdwaras) to expose you which i have in the post, but right now i would just quote my previous post on this topic so that sangat can read.

VahiguroojikakhalsaVahiguroojikifateh,

Bijla singh,

Normally I dont argue or debate that much in real life or on the forum, but its my jamir(consceince) which is dedicated to avtars/guru maharaj, sants of all the dharams is making me to debate with you. I really hope. Guru sahib breaks your jhoota ahankar after this debate. Any person who does nindya of others avtars, to make their avtars higher is full of dubta who fully overlooks its the same nirgun paratma that transcedented its beauty into avtars. This is not a attack towards you but this tat khalsa idealogy that you been diseased with along with god know how many sikhs youths diseased with.

///This is highly foolish and without any basis. I am again asking for proofs from Gurbani which you never provide. Bhai Gurdas Ji says that Guru Sahib is the greatest of all and Bhatts say that Guru Sahib is Satguru of four yugs. What status does Krishan have in Gurbani and show me the verses? Krishna seduced parjaat gopi in deceitful ways and had illicit relations (bajjar kurehat) with radha. In Gurmukh Darshan Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji has compared Guru Sahib to Krishan and Raam and has stated that Guru Sahib is certainly higher than such avtars. There have been millions of krishnas but only one Satguru Nanak Sahib. Either you are wrong or Bhatts and Bhai Gurdas Ji. //

Sikhs beleive, there is no difference between Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Vahiguroo. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in nirgun saroop is Vahiguroo, Vahiguroo in saroop is Guru Avtar in Kalyug- Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Question here, before kalyug where was sri guru nanak dev ji?

Two ways to look at this, i aligned my beleif with gurbani/gurmat, beleive in 1st, bijla singh ji is basing his beleif on 2nd. I ll let sangat decide which way is manmat, which is gurmat?

1. Before Kalyug, Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji was leen into Nirgun Paratma. Paratma is one(Ikongkar), it's same nirgun paratma that transcedent itself(not fully with attributes need in each respective yugs) as gurbani mentioned below via dvaraf,ram ji, krishan ji into satyug, treta, dvapar. As gurbani also says, its same Nirgun paratma transcedent itself(not fully but with most attributes) into Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Kalyug.

2. Before Kalyug, sri guru nanak dev in jot saroop in gupti roopi did kirpa on all the bhagats of satyug, treta, dvapar.

In my humble opnion, 2nd beleive have contradictory elements with gurbani, if bijla singh beleive sri guru nanak dev ji in jot saroop in gupti roopi did kirpa on all bhagats, then he has to also admit that sri guru nanak dev ji in jot form took form as dwarf, ram chandar ji, krishan maharaj ji. Because gurbani talks about this.

To say sargun(physical saroop) of sri guru nanak dev ji came in all four yugs, its directly contradicting gurban icontradicting gurbani talking about four yugas. Here gurbani talking about four yugas, and "specific" avtars in each yuga- you is referred to akaal purkh, came in form of Dwarf, raam chandar ji, krishan maharaj and sri guru nanak dev ji maharaj ji.

Below Gurbani tuk will prove- Vahiguroo/Ram/Allah took a avtar in form of- Dwarf(vashudev) was Guru of Satyuga, Ram Chandar Ji was Guru of Trayta, Krishan Maharaj was Guru of dVAAPAR, in kalyug sri guru nanak dev ji is Guru in Kalyug.

/There are different categories of avatar, the most complete being 'puran hari avtar' (even with the differences in kalaas between them as sant gurbachan singh ji teekas and samparda teekas confirms). Only they have the specific status of being those who give yug-dharma - the most appropriate teachings of the yug. Guru Maharaj is clearly of this category. If Avtar were simply perfect brahmgyaan, then any other brahmgyani would be the Guru in that sense...but no samprda sikh has ever claimed to be of the same category. However, the puran hari avtar manifest for a SPECIFIC function of giving yug dharma...a brahmgyani per se is not that. Yet Guru Hargobind's statement in Bhai Gurdas Varan (I will come in each and every yug to give dharma), Bhatts statements, etc all show there is no difference from earlier avatars of yugs...because how can there be?!! Either Parmatma came as 'puran' or he didn't./

All four were puran hari avtars respective to each yugas, yet avtars likes- Ansa Avtar(Raja Janak), Aveshya Avtar, Nit Avtar(sants of past and present) , Namit Avtar(Narsingh avtar) are lower than puran hari avtar because they were guru of each yugas, but they came and will still come in between to benefit human kind

Here enuf of my babling, here is what gurbani has to say:

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||

The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

If you dont like to read english translations, here in vistaar by faridkoti teeka, what functions each avtar did in their each yug. Akaal Purkh according to the need in each yug, transedent itself into avtars to sort things out, akaal purkh transcedent itself- dwarf, ram chandar ji, krishan maharaj, sri guru nanak dev ji. No avtar is higher or lower, they are all same, but they have performed different duties. Its different age thats all.

Also Bhai Gurdas Ji also mentions:

Jag Jag Satgur Dharie Avatari ||

In each age, the true guru will take avtar.

Also you have insulted twice krishan maharaj by calling he commited bujjer kurehit. Avtar is above than us joe blow humans, but tat khalsa /sharia panthis like you wouldnt get it, because you like to judge avtars by your little box standards.

Neverthless, if you accuse krishan maharaj commit illicit relationship and commiting bujher kurehit, one( same sharia mindset as yours, perverted sick individual from different mat) can also argue why gurus have multiple wives? were gurus were bhogi?, sakhi of maharaj giving hakum to sri guru angad dev ji to eat dead body, any other joe blow (with sharia mindset as yours) can also argue that it was inhumane act about to be committed/committed to dead body.

I am fully aware that there are quotes in gurbani that talks about, there are million of krishnas, there is no problem accepting that still holding krishan was puran hari avtar along dvarf, ram chandar ji and sri guru nanak dev ji. Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji himself said in japji sahib there is no end of paratma creation, there are infinte numbers of bhramands(Realms), worlds, meta realms. Since there was no stop on vahiguroo's creation, for all we know there are millions of ages people living in the same time- satyug, treta, dvapar, kalyug happening all the same time. Do you know limit to akaal purkh creation?

Akaal Usat(Page 48, Line 10): Maharaj mentions:

There was one Shiva, who passed away and another one came into being; there are many incarnations of Ramchandra and Krishna.

There are many Brahmas and Vishnus, there are many Vedas and Puranas, there have been the authors of all the Smritis, who created their works and passed away.

Many religious leaders, many chieftains of clans, many Ashwani Kumars and many degrees of incarnations, they had all been subject to death.

Many Muslim preceptors (Pirs) and Prophets, who cannot be count ed, they were born out of the earth, ultimately merged in the earth.

It may seem to an agyani person who thinks they know sikhi by reading few books that guru maharaj is lashing at the previous devi/devta's/avtars- ram, krishan maharaj ji. But according to teekas written by great great scholars who have spend all their life, doing khoj: guru maharaj is giving tat gyan to sikhs also people around that time who were sargun upasak of krishan, ram chandar, and other devi/devta's murtiya. He is giving updesh to sikhs and those people that five tats(asthol sirar) never stays(look at last line of akaal ustat), its born out of earth, ulitmately merged in the earth. So rise above from moortiya pooja and be upasak of shabad,gyan avtars given you in form of vaaks, vachans. Thats why in bachitar natak, guru maharaj clear says- whosoever call me(my physical saroop) as nirgun paratama, goes straight to hell. Also bachitar natak, maharaj give hints that names mentioned there, represent the movements went astray not the founders. How could founders can go astray, when bhata de svyaie confirm that vahiguroo came as krishn, ram.???

///Sri Guru Gobind Singh says: Aad Ant Eke Avtara So Guru Samjheo Hamara ||

In other words, Guru is only He who is always in existence and doesn’t take birth or die. Humans do not fit in this category. Krishan, Raam , Mohammad, Jesus etc were also humans. ///

Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji - said Guru- Nirgun paratama who have made - all the avtars including hari avtar in sargun form its not my guru in essence, but its nirgun paratma- aad ant ek avtara(creator of all avtars) is my Guru. Krishan, Raam, Mohaammad were also human, that includes also sri guru nanak dev ji who came in human form- sargun as well.

Even though sri guru tegh bahudar ji is vidya/gyan data guru of sri guru gobind singh ji, however since guru maharaj is talking about tat gyan(essence of all), he is reffering to nirgun paratama as his guru- aad(even before existence) ant(even after end) ek avtara(there is only one god who takes form of avtars) soi samjeho guru hamara(consider that is my guru).

Guru Maharaj have said it so people don't go around worshipping him but so that people worship nirgun vahiguroo via shabad and nirgun upasana.

Sikhi beleives in avtarhood: as sri dasam patsah in sri dasam granth sahib talks about avtar-

Jab Jab Arsat Hot Sansara ||

Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara ||

Once again, I ask for proof from Gurbani. Gurbani is Dhur Ki bani and pure truth. Nothing in Gurbani is false. According to Gurbani there is only one Satguru. If you disagree then tell me who else is Satguru and how many of them there have been? What is the proof? What naam did they preach and how can one obtain it now?

As i stand by fully atal, gurbani has three different context of satguru (according to research i managed to do so far).

a) Akaal Purkh in bhagata bani.

b) Satguru Nanak dev ji by bhats as well as sri guru arjan dev ji- aad gureh nameh, jagud guru nameh, satguru nameh, sri gurdev eh nameh(sri guru ram das ji).

c) Bhagat di bani/Bhai Gurdas Ji varan reffering satguru to avtars, bhagat ramanand by his shish(disciple-bhagat kabir). just like gurbani uses sant to Paratma(Vahiguroo), Guru Maharaj(Guru Arjan Dev Ji to Guru Ram Das Ji- Bhag Hoya Gur Sant Millaya), Sant who have got bhramgyan.

I think bijla singh have disagreement with me on c). I think we both agree on a and b).

Here is first gurbani quote by bhai gurdas ji regarding context of guru/satguru:

Here bhai gurdas ji talking about bhagit kabir ji encounter with his guru ramanand ji. The line in bold, bhai gurdas talks about that the wondrous sargun form of guru- referring to bhagat ramand ji, even turns even animals and ghost into angels. Look at the theme of this shabad, its starts with bhagat kabir encounter with his guru- ramamand, just read just line before the bold one, its talk about in metaphoric language, when iron touches stone becomes gold just like guru- reffering to bhagat ramamand ji samaratha turns even animals and ghost into angels, kabir is after all human, and line after- Meeting the wonderous Guru the disciple wonderfully merges into the great wonderous Lord. the disiple- bhagat kabir and guru being his vidya gurdev. 2nd last line distincation is directly made - meeting wonderous guru and merges into wonderour lord. And last line- after merging- Bhai Gurdas ji says- Ram and Kabir became indentical

hoe birakath banaarasee rehi(n)dhaa raamaana(n)dh gusaaee||

Being detached from the world, Brahmin Ramanand lived in Varanasi (Kasi).

a(n)mrith vaelae out(h)akae jaa(n)dhaa ga(n)gaa nhaavan thaaee||

He would rise early in the morning and go to the Ganges to bathe.

ago(n) hee dhae jaaeikae la(n)maa piaa kabeer thithhaaee||

Once even before Ramanand, Kabir went there and lay in the way.

pairee(n) ttu(n)b out(h)aaliaa bolahu raam sikh samajhaaee||

Touching with his feet Ramanand awakened Kabir and told him to speak ‘Ram’, the true spiritual teaching.

jiou(n) lohaa paaras shhuhae cha(n)dhan vaas ni(n)m mehikaaee||

As the iron touched by philosopher’s stone becomes gold and the margosa tree (Azadirachta indica) is made fragrant by sandal.

pasoo paraethahu(n) dhaev kar poorae sathigur dhee vaddiaaee||

The wondrous Guru turns even animals and ghosts into angels.

acharaj no acharaj milai visamaadhae visamaadh milaaee||

Meeting the wonderous Guru the disciple wonderfully merges into the great wonderous Lord.

jharanaa jharadhaa nijharahu(n) guramukh baanee agharr gharraaee||

Then from the Self springs a fountain and the words of the gurmukhs shape a beautiful form

raam kabeerai bhaedh n bhaaee ||aa||

Now Ram and Kabir became identical.

2nd gurbani quote regarding context of satguru/guru.

taken from faridkoti teeka:

This one, kabir ji being in mukht state: saying if jaigaso/i(student) finds an satguru(stating lashkhan of true satguru) who is - a)bhram surarti - satguru who has his surati with bhram b) bhram nesta- satguru who have full faith that without bhram(vahiguroo) there is nothing, there will be nothing. If jaiagaso/i finds that kind of satguru and satguru becomes happy with that jaigaso and gave that jaigaso final atam updesh then this jaiagaso find its very easy to get gyan mukhti and through this jaigaso goes to sehaj saroop and spent his time in ever lasting bliss.

In this quote, bhagat kabir talks about lachan of satguru and its milap benefits according to shaastar. In this context,ge is referring to anyone prani who have quality that was stated- bhram nesta/bhram surarti as satguru.

3rd gurbani quote regarding context of satguru taken from faridkoti teeka:

Again in this quote, satguru is not reffered to nirgun paratma but reffered to sargun saroop of vahiguroo, since he had guru ramamand which gave him bairaag, to enforce importance of guru- he is saying without satguru updesh, bairaag is not possible. With porbale karam(good karams from previous), you get to meet satguru- possibly explaining the state- that he did. At the last, kabir is giving updesh to bairaagi to beg to vahiguroo - with grace of satguru and with help of satguru, may i across worldy ocean. I shall follow discourse of satguru.

4th gurbani quote regarding satguru context from faridkoti teeka

Again this quote, gurparsad is referred to sargun saroop of vahiguroo, by his parsad(kirpa). Jaiagaso have through guru kirpa(sargun saroop), he has (desire to meet god/asa), and he is niras(from duniya, padaratha). For him, he is seeing real truth.

Jaigaso who has tasted raam naam, that person helps other to cross ocean.

In conclusion, i have provided you four quotes of satguru- first refers to bhagat ramanand, second refers anyone who has the qualities above, third refers to sargun saroop of vahiguroo- satguru, fourth also refers to sargun saroop of vahiguroo.

Since you stated earlier sri guru nanak dev ji before they took physical birth in 1469, were nirankari jot which i dont have problem with that, what i highly disagree is that you made satguru nanak dev ji as to one true prophet all ages as i discussed but anyway, if you satguru nanak dev ji was nirankari jot before they took birth in 1469 then, i rest my case because above 4 quotes (1 by bhai gurdas ji, 3 by bhagat kabir) regarding satguru directly refers to sargun saroop of vahiguroo so with its help, one can merge into nirgun paratma.

Take my advise, you just creating many veils for yourself- study nirgun and sargun concept carefully, so that you can get out of dubta which you may not admit.

I have never claimed that I know everything. I have never experienced Dasam Duar and neither have you. Hindu rituals and ways to get to dasam duar are fine for hindus and Guru Sahib didn’t teach us any methods to get to it. When Guru Sahib does kirpa dasam duar opens and it Is not under anyone’s control. Any sane person knows that such spiritual experiences are beyond physical sense, experience and knowledge. Such experience cannot be explained in physical terms, which is why very few gursikhs ever tried to write on such topics.

I agree, but as you said few gursikhs have wrote on this topic, here are some of writings of gursikhs on this dasam duar . If you get a chance read- discourse on beyond in english, here are the pages on dasam duar:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Pict...20the%20Beyond/

///Read Gurmat Karam Philosophy first. Hindus and Jains have different beliefs about karma. Gurmat has different viewpoint. This is a different topic.////

Jains might have different beleif i m not knowledgable about them , but sikhi is very aligned with hinduism, according to hindus there are three types of karam, so as sikhs(read your singh132 post on karams):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchita_karma

I have already told you that Guru Sahib did kirpa on bhagats and some individuals in last century. How Guru Sahib does is only known to Him. Gurbani says that Guru Sahib gave naam to bhagats which means it happened. It doesn’t say naam was given through other human beings. Waheguru Jot as nirgun saroop is capable of all things and has the power to bless naam without taking sargun saroop. If naam can be given to someone in jail, in death without having to go through human beings then why couldn’t Guru Sahib give naam in nirgun saroop? Do you not accept Gurbani to be true? Or you rather be chela of your sant who also has no Gurmat reasoning?

You see your tat khalsa fairy tale beleif contradicts gurbani(above quoted) which clearly mentions, sri guru nanak dev ji came as sargun of vahiguroo and came in guru in kalyug, also specifically mentions that dvarf, krishan maharaj, ram chandar ji were sargun sarooop of vahiguroo of their yug- satyug, treta, dvapar. If gurbani itself saying that, i rest my case.

Next thing you will say- no one got jevan mukht vedah mukhti in ages of satyug, treta, dvapar because dvarf, krishan, raam chandar who were hari avtar of vahiguroo were not capable who are also part of nirgun vahiguroo , same nirgun that sri guru nanak dev ji was part of, you probably think they came from satan?. it just amazes me what kinda rubbish you guys come up with and brainwash youths here.

////Naam is Gurmantar. Period.///

What a easy way to dodge the quotes on ongkar that i asked you before, which you dont have any answer.

Ok answer this, why emphasise is equally put in amrit sanchar on gurmantar and mool mantar?

You probably think with gurmantar- vahiguroo, sikhs can only get to sachkhand and with mool mantar sikhs get to karam khand, what a pile of bullocks. I cannot beleive tat khalsa mindset is discriminating between guru ghars mantars now, came from same sri guru nanak dev ji. It just amazes me.

Each Gurghar Mantar other mat mantars- ram, allah have its purposes, they are all capable take jiv into sachkhand.

For example- On japing vahiguroo, you will loose your ego. During yudh, baba deep singh ji used to recite gobinde mukhande udara appare hariang kariang nirnamee akame || for shiv shakti - shakti of vahiguroo. (reference - look sri harbhan singh yogi katha)

ikongkar mantar- bij mantar is used to feel that gyan. bij mantar sarb ko gian ||, Satnaam mantar is mantar of para bani- bani in nabhi(pirmal force- bani of rom rom har dhavaie) thats why its known para poorabla mantar.

Speaking of ram as mantar refer to nirgun god not ram sargun saroop: When i was reading bani by bhagat kabir, i probably come across with ram being naam/shabad close to 100 times, how could you deny it otherwise? ram not being naam.?, are you telling me ram naam was adura(not complete) in the yug compare to vahiguroo, are you telling me that people who japped on ram shabad to awake naam inside them were not mukht within their age(yug)? oh no i forgot it was sri guru nanak dev ji in gupti ropi gave them gurmat naam in their ears? how consistent?

////Bhagats who became Sikhs were given Gurmantar. I don’t know about Prehlaad and Dhroo since it is not mentioned in Gurbani. Gurbani does mention that Gurmantar revealed by Guru Sahib is the highest of all and I assume this was given to bhagats. Once again, I am not sure but I am sure that Guru Sahib gave naam because it says so in Gurbani. A child does simran in the womb and I believe it is true but I don’t know what naam it is since it is not mentioned. Some gursikhs have told me that it is Ik Oankaar. I do not know. //

I also beleive some bhagats came as panj pyares, i could beleive there is no issue there, but they were already mukht through gurparsad(kirpa of their guru) and vahiguroo, they came in hakum of akaal purkh and thats it, they didnt came here to get mukhti, it was part of maharaj leela- you really think panj pyares got bhramgyan when they gave their shish, they were already mukht atma came back as singhs with hakum of akaal purkh to show the world, the highest state is pyaar towards your guru that one sarcifices everything- tan, man, dhan.

It was part of maharaj lela(drama)- As sri guru gobind singh ji clearly states- Meh Ho Param Purkh Ko Dasa, Dekhon Aio Jagat Tamasa ||.

Since you put soo much emphasis on gurmat naam and sachkhand only limited to amrit dhari sikhs, you really think sri guru gobind singh ji was not complete as (tapavasi hindu sadhu) dusat duman , that only reason he came as sri guru gobind singh ji is to receive khanda da amrit from panj pyares and take gurmantar?

Then why need to get naam from the Guru? Just because Jot Waheguru resides in all of us doesn’t mean there is no need for Satguru.

Panj pyares give us shabad so that we can do shabad abhyaas so that naam of vahiguroo could be awaken within us, that resosance ongkar naam existed in everyone- be it sikhs, hindu, muslims, animals, trees, whole universe.

In Gurbani, there are many shabad mantars- Ikongkar, Satnaam, Vahiguroo, Ram, Allah.

All names except Gurmantar are man made. Gurmantar is the true revealed name.

So ikongkar, satnaam, mool mantar, ram, allah were all man made there no value, yeah rights thats probably why there is mention of ram hundred of hundreds times and allah many many times, along with ikongkar, satnam in mangal charan.

Bhai Gurdas Ji says, Guru Sahib is the greatest and so do Bhatts. Guru Gobind Singh Ji rejected all other avtars and stated that they had failed to do their job. Their gyan could not dispel darkness and fog of ignorance.

Guru sahib were greatest guru in kalyug but they were not compared to other avtars because each avtar had different purpose as gurbani clearly mentioned it will be one thing if all the hari avtars like - dvarf, ram, krishan and sri guru nanak dev ji had same purpose but all they had different purposes- get that through your head, because of that no one is higher no one is lower, how could they be lower or higher they all come from same source- nirgun paratma.

And i already mentioned bachitar natak earlier, maharaj give hints that names mentioned there, represent the movements went astray not the founders. How could founders can go astray, when bhata de svyaie confirm that vahiguroo came as krishn, ram.???

You are highly delusional. I am not saying they were not sent by Waheguru or anything. I am simply saying that they failed in their job which is why Guru Sahib had to come.

If they were to fail their job within in their own yug then why sri guru nanak dev ji as avtar wasnt then there sent by vahiguroo himself, if avtar of satyug failed his job as you claim then how sri guru nanak dev ji wasnt sent in satyug why kalyug ?

There was no failure of (avtars)founders of dharam, how could avtar of vahiguroo can be failures after all it avtar is creation of vahiguroo, how could avtar which is creation of vahiguroo can be imperfect..there was failure of people who were followers, causing religious wars. For eg: I am sure sure if in kalyug if all the fanatics from all the dharams were to fully hijack the dharam, sceinstist, atheist, communist starting their own world wars, then i m sure vahiguroo probably ended this world(kalyug) as well and according to his wish either started the cycle again (satyug, treta, dvapar, kalyug) or do straight maha parloa. Then some next joe blow comes along start targetting the founder guru in kalyug and start whinning about how sri guru nanak dev ji failed in kalyug, thats why kalyug ended and satyug started.

There are four ages, its a cycle one after another, its not like avtar failed satyug thats how satyug got destroyed then next came, its a cycle, after each yug is given x numbers of years. After kalyug, its up to vahiguroo he can start this cycle back on or do maha parloa - as you said million of ram , krishan avtars of vahiguroo which maharaj mentioned are used again. Thats exactly maharaj is mentioning when he said ek shiv bhai ek gaye, ek pher baie, ram chandran krishan kaie avtar bhi anek hai, it directly linked with yugs, maharaj said soo many times avtars, including whosoever avtar was in previous kalyug came in and went , then came back in.

Avtar theory is not stated anywhere in Gurmat. Word avtar is also used for humans who are in reincarnation.

what???????? avtar is not stated anywhere, you gotta be joking right. What about narsingh avtar? avtar mentioned in bhat savees,bhai gurdas ji, chaubis avtar in sri dasam granth. But then again, you know better than sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale and great bhramgyanis of other puratan samparda's.

Explain this then:

Sikhi beleives in avtarhood: as sri dasam patsah in sri dasam granth sahib talks about avtar-

Jab Jab Arsat Hot Sansara ||

Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara ||

I would like to see the reference from Quran. Dhikr is a way to do tasbee and a person can choose any name to chant. Islam believes the world was created in 6 days. As far as brahma is concerned that is just plain manmat. Gurbani doesn’t say brahma created this world. Brahma was so much into lust that he wanted to have sex with his own daughter.

who is taking about bhrama here? I m talking about kun mantar which islam wale beleives that created this universe. It all comes to beleive here, whatever your beleif/perceive thats what it comes across in higher reality- spiritual orders in hindusim beleive in aum-aligned with four avastha- jagrath, saupan, sukhopat, turiya, sikhs beleive ongkar was the first resosance. After all each beleive is based on faith. Whatever mind perceives reality thats what happens, for eg- if amritdhari singhs, beleive its shahid singhs come after death and take the subtle sirar away, thats what happens as compare to devdoots or guardian angels. If christian beleives its the guardian angel instead of shahid singhs as whatever mind perceives thats what happens as proven in different religious people encouter of near death expereinces.

This is my last post on this topic. As you said, we will let sangat decide, out of us, which one has used gurmat idealogy and which one has used modified tat khalsa idealogy which has attempted in past and still doing soo, attempted to destroy- khalsa panth which is beautiful garden of sri guru nanak dev ji and tried making it into shariaism instead of sikhism in the past, still doing so. This is debate is merely an ego battle, its a debate started when tat khalsa idealogy came along with bhausaria singh sabhas with good intention in heart but in reality did more damage than any good to the panth. Its a debate between two ideology- guru di mat discphired by puratan samparda's and tat khalsa look on sikhi.

VahiguroojikakhalsaVahiguroojikifateh

[Mehtab Singh]

When you guys are done, let me know. I have a question for both of you. In fact, a shabad for each of you.

[Bijla Singh]

Bijla Singh, this is already discussed in previous debates with you. You seem hell bent on one point, good to your beleif. You write this post so that sangat can read it, i would also like to post my thoughts which i posted in earlier threads and let sangat decide if sikhi is really black and white as you like to claim it.

Sure, you can post whatever you want. What I have posted is based on Gurbani which is interpreted by many scholars like Bhai Veer Singh, Bhai Randhir Singh and Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha. The post is based on Bhai Kahan Singh and Bhai Randhir Singh's work. This interpretation is not in line with sanatanism which is why you are always bothered by it.

Also you have a big tendency to misinterpertating gurbani as you did other threads- bed ketab shabad you were challenged by pal07 which you had no answer and ignored his posts.

The interpretation is based on Bhai Kahan Singh's work and viyakaran not my invention. Also, the interpretation you provide directly contradicts rest of Gurbani which is why it cannot be accepted. Pal07 was answered as I recall. Every single post I wrote answered his questions but he kept nagging and ignored all of my posts. Go back to the topic, start from beginning and you will see that I have posted the meanings of the shabad many times but he failed to understand. He and you are the one misinterpreting Gurbani to elevate your sants.

Anyway you are guilty of blasphemy misinterperet gurbani like a dalal(pimp) to suit your fascist agenda.

Care to tell me what my "agenda" is? To show that Gurmat is revealed and not based on hinduism is what I do. It is not an agenda. Your intentions to intermix Gurmat Hinduism and sant puna is an agenda. You are serving the purpose of the likes of RSS. The way I see it you are the pimp of RSS and so-called false sants.

Atleast I dont claim to interpret gurbani but luckily by guru's grace have enough sources in my library of various teekas of panth ratans (recnognized by jathedars, sikh academica, used in gurdwaras) to expose you which i have in the post, but right now i would just quote my previous post on this topic so that sangat can read.

My sources are Sikh scholars which you never bothered to study. Deras and Sants are not my sources. Although I read their work to gain better understanding but I don't have the intentions of following sanatanism.

You have the right to post whatever you like but you have no right to insult me or make personal attacks in every one of your posts. But I guess this is what today's deras are teaching. I post for people to read not to get them to follow me. Their decision is their choice.

[Fauja]

wit long as hell posts like that i dont think anyone's gonna read it lol

and that goes for the both of u

[Mehtab Singh]

u shud when u have time :nihungsmile:

[N30S1NGH]

Bijla Singh,

we have both provided our research, let sangat decide now. I dont want to go on off topic but tom or latest sunday i ll create a topic regarding bed ketab shabad you are more than welcome to challenge the sources. I roughly have so far four puratan sources from various teekas written by panth ratans proving and many scholars including who agree the interpertation of that shabad being:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

as opposed to your interpertation which we yet to see actual scanned version source yet puratan source.

[Bijla Singh]

I have explained the meanings many times before. Just because an old book says something doesn't mean it is correct. If any interpretation contradicts rest of Gurbani it cannot be accepted. This is the basis of my understanding of Gurbani. I have also posted what Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha has interpreted which are a little different but the implied meaning is the same. If anything new needs to be written I will do it.

[PAL 07]

Bijla Singh,

Who was Kahn Singh Nabha what kamayee did he have, he ain't no scholar he just wrote a dictionary. Sant Hari Singh Randavevale even criticise him as having no kamayee. You need a practical life aswell as a theoretical life, Kahn Singh was only a small level Giani..................With all respect your interpretation of Bed Katebh shabad is incorrect and false..................truth and false is clearly seperated. You should admit your mistake of incorrect interpretation of Gurbani