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Thanks for the info...but I wouldnt come or support because of the difference in views and your affiliation with other groups.

Unlike Churches and Christian Societies, our Gurdwara committees seem very uncomfortable using the Guru's golak to provide temporary shelter for at least the homeless punjabi/indian migrants. I can understand the generalised concerns about the homeless having alcohol, drug related problems, but like the Christian homeless shelters, you can isolate these centres from the Gurughar and develop them into rehab centres as well as centres which will provide support for these people to get back on their feet. Something is better than nothing.... It's so uplifting to know groups like SWAT (Sikh Welfare Awareness Team) exist out there who take this kind of sewa on.

Any one who gives up his own life for against tyranny is a martyr regardless. It is the ultimate sacrifice, and we can all sit here in the comfort of our rooms and argue otherwise. Every situation is different and every person has different abilities as to what Maharaaj has blessed him with. He may feel this kind of sacrifice would have done more than him taking out 5/6 of the enemy before losing his own life. He may not have the ability to raise arms. We cannot judge. There is a HUGE difference between suicide as an escape from worldly problems and to that of giving up your own life to impact the freedom of future generations. Anyone who has given their own life up and made the ultimate sacrifice against tyranny has achieved the greatest status of Shaheedi. Parnaam Shaheedan Nu

Good on you Aman0001! But Asa Di Vaar states- Moorakh naal na lujiye which translates to dont mix with fools. Frankly the views of the group seem to be of a low intellectual standard or undeveloped if you like. Also the groups that they affilliate with are known for corrupt and two faced behaviour. So best of luck to you all.

Guys this is the same old story, we can go on forever wasting our time by cursing this pretend granthi. The fact is like many others before him, he probably pretended to be a granthi in order to get a visa to this country and eventually become a resident, at which point he would have quit his granthi job never to be seen in a Gurdwara again. Its simply a means to an end. Why not try resolving the primary issue here? The fact is there are no controls and regulations around becoming a granthi. Literally any tom, d1ck or harry can pretend to be a granthi, all they need is a turban, long beard and the basics of Sikhi. When you have no controls around who becomes a granthi, it leads to poor quality granthis being recruited at Gurdwaras along with passport hunters. For more detailed analysis and views please read the following:- http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/57848-sikh-giani-recruitment-model-vs-muslim-cleric-recruitment-model/page__p__479821__hl__%2Bgiani+%2Brecruitment+%2Bmod__fromsearch__1#entry479821

Paji with all due respect if you listen to katha of this prasang by mahapurakh they say that the sword was not able to cut maahraj's sees; maharaj themselves disjoined their head from their deh and it fell into the sevaks hands. Maharaj ji willingly gave up their sees. Another example although in a different context is when Bhai Gurmukh Singh ji Audeesa jumped into the fire where Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh ji'd antam sanskaar was happening, out of pyaar.

For some reason, i posted dis yest an sum1 decided to remove it. looks like censorship is a live an well.

I don't agree. Sure she wasn't Singhni but she may well have been of Sikh background. Plus, if we do have problems with Pakistani boys targeting girls of Sikh backgrounds, how is denying they are Sikh going to help us tackle and end the problem (as much as it can be)? Sure, people rightly question her lifestyle etc. but instead of disassociating ourselves from her maybe we can try and use the example to wake up other dim-witted apneean? Even though from past experience I know we are likely to be told to sod off when we try....lol Just ignoring the issue will only make it grow in my opinion. Then we may end up in an even deeper mess? I'm just airing ideas here, so there is no need for certain people to get upset over it. If you think you have better ideas please feel free to share and discuss them without frothing at the mouth. This is an issue that can effect any of us.

Makes one even more glad that there ARE Singhnia and young Bibia out there who are passionate about Sikhi. Long may they live.

I had an apna friend who was a solicitor who told me that when he had to defend some Pakistani crooks very often, the guys Sikh girlfriends would come to court to give a character reference. He was like: "I don't even have to guess anymore, as soon as one steps up, I just know it's an apnee now". I bet you if an apna had approached this girl (in the OP) when she was dating this sullah, and told her to keep away and that he's no good and just using her. She would have told him to $%@* off and say he doesn't know what he is talking about. And how Shehzad is different and 'not like that'. UK apneean haven't got a good reputation, and it's been this way for a while, lets not mince words or live in denial.

I mean this says a lot about these paki guys.... at one end a Jihadi and at the other a flirt ?

One of the 7/7 bombers terrorists sisters converted to Sikhi Alia Kaur

Again I am not comparing shaheeds or movements here, you initially bought up lame arse comment on to this thread, Khalsa should be against oppressive regime, that buddhist monk did what he believed in for his people and bought change to government.. .he should not be mocked or belittle just because his approach was little different than your definition of shaheeds...at the end, it bought results that he wanted..gov't bend over in pressure... I am sure those shaheed figures you posted must be highly disappointed on your lame arse comment...instead of mocking and belittle each other way of fighting oppression, why don't we appreciate diversity? I am not expecting you to respect diversity outside of religion..thats too much to ask anyway but lets look within panth, as i said earlier, The problem with new age youth order is, they will big up one form of shahedi yet totally ignore/belittle other form of shaheedi which our gurus, and our soorma's like baba bir singh ji naurangabad attained...may be thats why we don't have khalistan? perhaps little change in attitude? Khalsa should change its tactics adjust with times, at this very current moment, I don't see not even single person in the panth, pro-actively promoting wikileaks- war by pen against tryanny governments.. why ? again comes down to cham of the person? stuck in same guerilla war thinking? Not saying guerilla war is bad, as its required according to time, khalsa is flexible should adjust its tactics with times, not just some crazy taliban mullah blowing up statues to prove a point.

I am sure you will find baba bir singh naurangabad shaheedi not gurmat as well then or Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Shaheedi on tati tavi not gurmat (god forbid in no way i m comparing beloved maharaj shaheedi with above or anyone else) just trying to make an point. Both raising an sword and attaining shaheedi and sacrificing oneself while showing an attribute of patience and hakum ,both types of shaheedi is parvan in sikhi. The problem with new age youth order is, they will big up one form of shahedi yet totally ignore/belittle other form of shaheedi which our gurus, and our soorma's like baba bir singh ji naurangabad attained. The claim that person committed an suicide is laughable , need to watch it carefully again, this guy is in smadhi while being burned until sareer gives up, in fact his disciple is pouring gasoline and matched it. He seemed to be in trance meditation. This is an live example, I was shocked see the video at first, when his disciple was putting gasoline on him(imagine how hard it must have been to follow that hakum of his master), but his lack of movement, sitting firm in meditation while he ignited himself and when others namaskar to him. I don't know i felt sense of calm knowing he didn't feel any pain and knowing he was in naam simran, how calm he was, this is live example and practical example how naam simran/abhyaas can control the senses beyond any pain. This video is extremely effective, can have an profound effect on people regardless of dharam who are on this path of simran sort of reinforce their belief in naam simran.

Its hard for girls as they are always pressurized to wait for Amrit until after marriage, and I will give you the same advice I have given other Bibis in your situation. Say you get married WITHOUT taking Amrit, and the person you get married to is also non-Amritdhari but in full Sikhi saroop, i.e. he wears a turban and has full uncut beard, but hasn't taken Amrit, like yourself. Tomorrow this guy starts drinking alcohol, starts eating meat (which you may not approve of), and refuses to take Amrit, what are you going to do then? You will be stuck with him forever, you will not only hesitate to take Amrit but will come to a point of discarding the idea as a result of the manmukhi sangat of your spouse. However, if you take Amrit before marriage, your folks will know that you can marry ONLY an Amritdhari Singh. People will whine about how hard its going to be to find you a match since you are Amritdhari, but thats what they will whine about anyways because Punjabis who love to be Punjabis rather than Sikhs are good only at whining, so allow those duffers and don't bother. You know what you need to do, you know very well what you want, so don't let anyone or anything stop you. And another thing, do not misinterpret any Hukamnama of Gurujee. Gurujee will NEVER ask you to wait to take Amrit, so forget about having a single doubt for fraction of a second that He wants you to wait for Amrit till after marriage.

Completely agree, and also Guru Tegh Bahadur maharaj ji's shaheedi.

Why are you distorting Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj Shaheedi? Maharaj stepped on the hot plate because thats what his punshment was for not obeying to the worldly rulers at that time. And you comparing Maharaj shaheedi to a person, where no worldly ruler forced him to burn himself. The difference from Maharaj and this monk is that Maharaj was forced onto the hot plate and the monk willingly commited suicide. You can't even compare the two. I don't know who Baba Bir Singh is so if you want explain his shaheedi, if you can call it that. He choose to burn himself. No one forced it on him. Patience would be to go infront of the current rulers and say the truth. Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj demostrated this through Babar's actions. The problem is not with new youth order, but your faulty reasoning. I can easily turn this around and say the Sikhawareness crew need a reality check on their new twisted youth order. So keep the insults to yourself. Does the state he is in really matter? The definition of suicide is clear. What this monk did is, suicide. The fact you are commenting on his state is laughable and then equating this guys suicide to Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj Shaheedi is insulting. I know his disciple is pouring the gasoline on him and that's why its called assisted suicide. No one has the right to take their life according to Sikhi. If someone else takes it by force, that is a different thing. Say the countries law forced their punishment on him, like they did to Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj then he would be called a shaheed. But this didn't happen, instead he willingly let one of his disciples pour gasoline on him and then put on fire. Thats not according to Sikhi at all. When it comes to Gurmat, this all does not matter. In his religion if he did the right thing thats fine. He did what his relgion taught him. But none of the Gurus gave their lives in this way and the fact that people are even posting such nonsense (sayin the Gurus did), shows how twisted people are to prove their own theories.

The Orginal Source Nowhere Mentions that the girlfriend was a sikh. And i agree that the Panth is in a bad real bad state.Sikh Girls need to be more conscious of their sikh History and identity.

What's the appeal of girls from a Sikh heritage going off with Muslim lads? I don't understand the need. There's enough clean-shaven, gelled hair, gym-going heroes in our own faith, if thats what these kind of girls are attracted to these days. Is it the danger of the forbidden and taboo? Is it a genuine romance (as impalpable as it may sound)? Or is it - supposedly - the practicing of certain nefarious dark arts by the Muslim to snare a girl for conversion? We all know why the Muslims do it, but why do our girls fall for it?

I suppose so. Also, I'm not labelling all our girls in this way, in case a bibi takes offence. In this country, there is an emerging trend of our girls prefering white men for long-term relationships, and Muslims being chosen for quick flings at uni or school. Back in Panjab, our girls seemed to have made a habit of forming illicit relationships with their mamma's or bhua's son. This is another major issue our community is in denial about in a huge way. I use to think it was just fiendish gossip from busy-bodies, but having heard first-hand of such relationships from friends and relatives - and also having direct experience of such shenanigans (as an observer) - I can say this is another problem that our community is facing. However, I don't reckon its an issue that has come to the surface as of yet. I give it a few more years. Anyway, I digress.

Seeing as you asked, I'll be frank. Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that there's no return from having a relationship with a Muslim (carnal relations, etc). Apologies if this is not the case in your instance. Its something I read in one of the later volumes of 'The History of The Sikhs' by Max Arthur MacAuliffe. I'm not sure whether its a sandesh that has been enforced in the modern era. I don't see why it should be reiterated once Guru Ji has uttered it. His word is final.

Do not put so much faith into your father. He is a human being just like the many billions in the world. He can make mistakes like the rest of us. If you feel your father has proven to be a poor role model or misguided you, then that is not your fault. Ultimately you aren't accountable for his deeds - even if you feel he is responsible for some of the activities you've been "encouraged" to do. At least now you are realising the truth of this whole matter, and you wish to do something about it. You've realised what you've been directed to do by your father is utterly wrong. That's a good start isn't it? Be brave. I understand about respecting one's parents, but if you feel something is amiss then you have every right to speak out. A man must make his own way in life at one time or another. Always looking for approval or permission from parents is sometimes not the best thing to do, especially when the parent or parents aren't shining paragons of virtue themselves - or if one suspects they have questionable judgement. Apologies if you think I'm taking shots at your parents - I'm honestly not. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

Seriously this is your response to my post? At the moment i cant write a full response, but why didnt you consider Satguru Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib ji Maharaj imprisonment and Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj imprisonment. Think about these imprisonments and tell me if they followed worldly punishments. Then what about Satguru in his 9th form, who sat in a small cage at the lunatic rulers forced orders before giving shaheedi, did the Gurus lose there shakti then? Just astonishing to what lengths some would go to prove their own theories against Gurmat. Mods please don't close this thread because of some that are purposely influencing others to insult and then hoping the thread goes down.

Guru Sahib again in the 9th form did not willingly cut off his head or get one of his Sikhs to do it, like this monk did. The Hindus asked for Guru Sahib's help and then Guru Sahib suggested that if a King gives his head, will you the Muslims stop the killing of the Hindus. The hindus went to the Muslim rulers to ask of this and they accepted. He just didn't get up and say to Bhai Mati Das ji, here is a kirpan and cut my head off, like the monk told his disciple, but told him to light him up. The Muslims rulers agreed to stop the killing if a King gives his head. Then Guru Sahib gave his head for the killing to be stopped, but never did it willingly. Guru Sahib Shaheedi cannot be compared in the 9th form either. There is a huge difference from the monks suicide to Guru Sahib Shaheedi. Read the definition of suicide. What Guru Sahib did was give the option to the Muslim ruler, to decide whether the 9th King lives or dies. It was in the Muslim rulers hands on Guru Sahib The Muslim ruler took Guru Sahib's life, it was not Guru Sahib himself, who took his own life. On the other hand the monks life was in his own hand. No one forced him to give his life. He decided to take it himself, which is against Gurmat.

my definition of shaheeds?? they are the panths shaheeds....not mine...i hope you burn in narak for disrespecting the shaheeds of the khalsa panth....secondly we didnt get khalistan because we lost support from the sikh kaum...primarily due to the black cats...and our people not knowing the difference between a singh and a cat...clealry you kow nothing about the movement and nothing about shahadat....this is not difference of opinion this is difference of ideology....the sikh kaums definition of shaheedi is getting cut piece by piece and still wanting to fight in the battlefield in support of truth justice and righteousness...it seems to me bhuddist form of shaheedi is burning yourself....you claim the monks shaheedi brought success in that he gained media attention to the conflict in vietnam...i assure you america did not care for one monbk burning himself....america left because of the sheer determination of the NVA and vietcong forces trying to unite their country.....tyrants are not swayed by self immolation!!...i would like to see this monk brun himself infront of hitler and the nazis...they would probably laugh...because their job got a whole lot easier... are you comparing the khalsa to mullahs trying to blow up a statue?...its easy to run your mouth behind a computer screen!